The ‘ol trick corner came up in conversation while we were waiting to start today. I said verbal deception by a PLAYER is fine, but verbal deception by the coach isn’t. Jim Allen answered in 2010 with this from a memorandum from USSF. “Interfering with the game in any way, such as: • yelling out instructions to do something illegal or giving deceptive instructions. • when coaches become actively involved in helping their team deceive the opponents, such as saying that player “x” should do this or that and clearly intending something else to occur (as discovered after the restart).” A) is this still the USSF thinking? B) “Does Johnny you take the kick“ on the ‘ol trick corner Fall into this category? there’s money on my answer!!
I would say this is outdated. FIFA could easily eliminate this type of corner from the game and they haven't. While that isn't necessarily an endorsement of it, it tells me they don't have enough of an issue with it to change the Laws. It also rarely works at this point. That being said, verbally coaching an player to deliberately violate the LOTG or to injure an opponent is at a minimum a yellow for the coach. I could see a scenario as an AR where something like this is heard but not by the referee. If an dangerous situation results, I would call the referee over and explain what was observed. I could potentially see a red for a coach in that situation.
I don’t dispute the legality of the trick corner, I am questioning if the COACH can verbally deceive the opponent. I’m saying he can’t.
It is textbook USB even for a player as it is designed to: verbally distracts an opponent during play or at a restart also, I would maintain that a coach doing it also violates the catch-all shows a lack of respect for the game But keep in mind, the "trick corner" is only legal if done silently. If one player says, "I got it" or "you take it" and then does the trick corner, blow it dead, caution the player for USB and give an IDK going out.
I don’t think that anything Jim wrote on his site is “gospel” anymore—at this point it is thoughtful opinions of one man. Just the same, @Sport Billy ’s assertion that the trick cornet must be silent is just his opinion. There is no official guidance that I know of the that says that. As to IFAB, when they added “clearly” to “moves” the fake corner was one of the things they were attempting to address. (Alas, they didn’t do the simple, obvious thing to fix it: make a CK be kicked from inside to outside of the arc.) I don’t think it is true that any verbal involvement is USB. When the verbal involvement, ITOOTR, becomes unfair, it becomes cautionable as USB. And we all have different standards, such that teams engage in this at their own peril. (The “trick” is also ruined if, ITOOTR, the ball did not clearly move.)
I completely understand about what Jim Allen wrote, but the passage that I quoted was from a USSF memo on the subject. If it remans in the opinion of the referee, I would rule at Lower and younger levels that a coach deceiving An opponent is against the SOTG and would be caution-able.
if a player says “let me take it” and then does the fake corner, his statement is designed to “verbally distracts an opponent”. It’s textbook USB. it’s what we used to call “coaching” back in the day. It is a cautionable offense. You have never been permitted to make deceptive statements.
That’s your opinion. I don’t think it is even close to what IFAB had in mind with this provision. If ITTOTR it meets the standard, so be it. I don’t remember the timing—Jim may have written that memo, too. But I don’t think it matters. I don’t think any of the old memos are doctrine now. But I think it certainly remains ITOOTR to consider it USB. I’m going to be faster to sanction a coach than a player, but we have to be careful about what was specifically said.
My approach on the trick corner is based on all of a team's restarts. Have they been moving other set balls with the foot and then taking the kick then I am not allowing it on a specific corner.
But that’s a slippery slope here. The coach is talking to their own players. So where’s the deception? The opponent shouldn’t really have any business listening to the opposing coach. And where is the line? If a player is running down the field dribbling and looks left saying “Jimmy run on to the ball” Then they pass right to Mark who makes that exact play are we calling verbal deception? The laws say at a restart or during play so... I personally draw the line at who the audible words or sounds are directed at. If it’s to teammates then nothing to be done. If an opponent, we have an issue. Now I say that with the knowledge that our head of high school soccer in KY, who was also the NFHS rules chairman very recently, said that a player or coach doing this should be punished with a card. So there’s clearly differing opinions.
There used to be wording that a coach was only allowed to give "tactical instructions" to the team. The interpretation, which I can't recall if it was USSF-specific, was that if the coach said something like, "No, let Amanda take it" then that was the tactical instruction. If the intention was to confuse the other team, because Ashley technically put the ball in play with a slight kick-and-move and then Amanda took off dribbling, then the coach was not giving a tactical instruction and so the coach was not behaving in a responsible manner and was subject to reporting - equivalent of a caution.
But how do we decide that? What if the player is just being “disobedient” and kicks the ball into play? Getting involved in interpreting instructions to a coaches or players own team, when not for the purposes of instructing to do something illegal, seems like overstepping.
Why do we look for trouble? It is not our job to impose our particular brand of soccer morality. If a team is dumb enough to get taken in by this corner, so be it. There is nothing that prohibits a coach from giving instructions. What if a coach yells to his back 4, "Drop," but that is really the cue to step for an offside trap? It is hard enough to referee without looking for things to complicate our lives.
This is everything that needs to be said on this subject--with the perfect example in support of the argument--in three paragraphs less than I could have hoped if I tried myself.
so, the USSF guidance (from 2010) which I quoted from no longer applies? When was this decided? This is low level soccer. I agree with you all at higher levels, but the SOTG comes into play here. A coach should not be attempting gamesmanship and deception.
Basically when the ATR was no longer printed. After that US Soccer started to rely on the laws and not their own interpretations (for the most part).
Sorry, if the subject is your wager, I suppose there is more to discuss. Aside from your personal financial interest, I just find it all pointless. It was a dumb memo and there have been a lot of dumb things written under the auspices of USSF. You can try to make the argument it is or was about "low-level soccer," but that doesn't work. USSF governs all soccer in our country. A memo applies to the highest levels and then adjustments and accommodations are made by lower level competition authorities--it does not work in the opposite manner. That memo, when it had (or still has?) the force of law, theoretically applied to the National Amateur Cup Final in the same way it applied to the local U10 rec game. And that's why it was and still is dumb. If a local league wanted to police coaches from manipulating rec players who are supposed to be out there to have fun or are too young to know better... fine. But you don't do that by having a FIFA affiliate write a memo that applies to every game played in the country. I mean, read what you posted. "Foul him!" would not be a tactical instruction to take a yellow card but, instead, "interfering with the game... by yelling out instructions to do something illegal." So we are to give the SPA yellow card and, what, caution or dismiss the coach for the verbal instruction? No referee doing any match of significant consequence took this seriously when it existed. And that makes it hard to answer your question of when (or if) it stopped mattering and what it actually meant.
Is this a good segue to say that position papers are back? Located under the instruction resources on the US Soccer Box.com account: https://m.box.com/shared_item/https...vxgt5gdq9adsxgw0o9wlqcddm/browse/118967202561
Probably also good to note there are only 3 and one is a re write of an older one. So that to me is a pretty strong indicator the others are dead and buried.