Classic Game Club- Italy v. Brazil 1982 WC

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by comme, Oct 16, 2008.

  1. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Ok, I thought I'd set up a thread for each individual game so that they can have a bit more focus.

    Italy 3 - 2 Brazil

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MkXILrvbNdE

    http://www.fifa.com/classicfootball/matches/match=788/report.html

    http://www.planetworldcup.com/CUPS/1982/ph2gr3_ita_v_bra.html

    05.07.82 (17.15) Barcelona, Estadio Sarria

    ITA - BRA 3:2 (2:1)

    (~44000) Klein ISR, Chan Tam Sun HKG, Dochev BUL

    ITA: Zoff (c) - Gentile, Cabrini, Collovati (34 Bergomi), Scirea - Tardelli
    (76 Marini), Antognoni, Oriali, Conti - Rossi, Graziani
    BRA: Valdir Perez - Leandro, Oscar, Luizinho, Junior, Cerezo - Zico, Falcão,
    Serginho (69 Paulo Isidoro) - Socrates (c), Eder

    1:0 Rossi 8 h, 1:1 Socrates 12, 2:1 Rossi 25, 2:2 Falção 68, 3:2 Rossi 74
     
  2. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Thought I'd bring across Fraser's post in the last thread.

    I am going to try and watch this game this weekend.
     
  3. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    I can't get myself to watch this game once more...must've seen it about 3-4 times by now.
     
  4. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Ok, well if you like then just give a brief over view of what you thought.

    Or I guess we could have another game for other people to look at.
     
  5. andykeikei

    andykeikei New Member

    Aug 21, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Can I also join the Classic Game Club? I really admire the football in the old days. I would love the opportunity to learn and study the game in the past, which was much more entertaining to me. However, I don't really have any old games though.

    Speaking of the Champion magazine, I really liked their history section too. I remember they talked about the Gre-No-Li in Milan; the decline of libero, the Busby Babe...I was struggling whether to buy this month's FFT or this. I ended up bought the FFT since they talked about the keepers in the past. But I think I made the wrong decision:(

    Anyway, 1982 Italy vs. Brazil, the ultimate battle of attacking and defensive football philosophy, I have been told that it was the deciding factor of so called "Modern football". Teams around the world follow suit of the winner's conservative approach to the game, thus more and more defensive strategy were created. I would really like every posters' opinions about it. I will post my comment of the game after I re-watch it.
     
  6. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Yep, sure. I've invited you to the BS group. We are looking into the logistics of how to make the games available.

    I've watched the first half of this, now and will try and watch the rest and post comments later.
     
  7. andykeikei

    andykeikei New Member

    Aug 21, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    First of all, a couple of fouls in the game would surely guarantee a yellow card nowadays. However the referee would just go for warning instead, may be that's just the way it was.

    There was no diving, well at least not as much as now. I think if a player nowadays in Zico's position and got pulled by Gentile, he would surely goes down and makes sure that he yelled loud enough.

    On Brazil:
    1. What can I say? Serginho sucks!! Crap finishing, crap link up play...
    2. Socrates had a pretty good game. He usually arrived late to the box and caused chaos to the Italian defense. For example the header that went straight into Zoff. He was pretty much unmarked and it's such a shame that he couldn't head it cleanly. And then of course his equalizing goal from an amazing turn and through pass by Zico.
    3. Zico had moment of brillance, but I thought Falcao performed better.
    4. Cerezo had a beautiful decoy run when Falcao scored. However I don't think it can cover his mistake earlier in the game.

    On Italy:
    1. Rossi scored 3 goals in one of the biggest upset in world cup history. He became an instant legend after that, however I still think he is a bit overrated as I don't think he is as good a player as the other italian legends.
    BTW he should have his hat-trick long before Brazil got their second goals.
    2. I was surprised at Antognoni. I thought he would be a Rui Costa's type playmaker. I didn't know he was so quick and agile; he had a great run that past through 4 or 5 brazil players before going down.
    3. Bruno Conti is the best Italian winger to this day. But I didn't think he played too well in this game. He gave away possesion too much with his back heel and quick turns.
    4. Bergomi played really well IMO. I was surprised though since I saw his comment about this game before I actually watch it. He certainly didn't look like someone who's shaking due to such intense atmosphere.
     
  8. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    One of the linesmen came from Hong Kong. I recently read an interview on him and he talked about that game. I will take a look tomorrow and try to translate it.
     
  9. Bergen

    Bergen New Member

    Oct 19, 2008
    Bergen
    Can I join this group as well? Finally I have found a group of people with the same interest in football history as myself. I have just started watching the match, so I will come back with thoughts later, but I just have to say that this was a brilliant idea.
     
  10. Bergen

    Bergen New Member

    Oct 19, 2008
    Bergen
    What a game! I've just watched through the whole thing on YouTube and must say it was a truly memorable game.

    The first half was perhaps the more entertaining, given that the Italians were more attack-minded, perhaps surprisingly regarding their poor performances in the earlier group stage. Both teams had some beautiful plays, but Brazil seemed to hold on to the ball for too long at times, giving the Italians a chance to reorganize instead of playing wide and taking advantage of the spaces that were there, Italy certainly seemed to make better use of their wings.

    Italy seemed more concerned with holding on to their lead in the second half, but Brazil seemed to lack innovation and never really managed to open up the Italian defence, whenever they were close Dino Zoff seemed to have read the situation. However, there was a horrid lack of pressure on Falcao that allowed him to thunder home the equalizer. 3-2 was another proof that defence was Brazils achilles heel, how could Rossi stand on 7 yards all alone??

    Here are the three decisive factors on each team the way I see the game:
    1) As already mentioned, Brazil lacked a clear number 9, Serginho did not give Bergomi much trouble, therefore the Italians could focus on locking up Zico.

    2) Brazil did not have good enough players out wide, the Garrincha and Jairzinho was nowhere to be seen and it was not difficult for Italy to defend themselves as the real threats always came down the middle.

    3) Zico disappeared more and more, seemingly stressed by Gentile. One could wonder though, what if Klein had given a penalty when Zicos shirt was ripped off rather than an offside?

    Italy:

    1) Gentile, as already mentioned, neutralized Zico more and more, in the end The White Pele was invisible and Italy had Gentile to thank for it.

    2) Dino Zoff took the responsibility when called upon in the second half, always safe and always reading the situation well. It must have been great for a youngster like Bergomi to play alongside Gentile and Zoff, both of them playing with so much authority and calmness in the midst of a world cup drama.

    3) Paulo Rossi, of course. A real goalpoacher that always seemed to be at the right place at the right time, I'm sure Oscar had nightmares about him for a long time after this.
     
  11. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    i mentioned in my summary of the game that i found it strange that Klein didn't clamp down on Gentile more.

    he was booked fairly early in the match which would lead you to believe that would have given Zico the upper hand but only if the referee is strong enough to follow his earlier stance he took against Gentile as the match wore on. this he didn't do, allowing Gentile to use questionable methods at times in the game to stop the talented no.10 from becoming more instrumental for the Brazilians.
     
  12. Bergen

    Bergen New Member

    Oct 19, 2008
    Bergen

    I agree with you on this one, perhaps I should have commented on the referee there. Gentile could possably have been sent off had Zico not been called for an offside, this would of course have changed the match completely.

    However, I didn't take a stand on the methods Gentile used, I simply commented on the results of this so I won't say I was wrong, but I admit I should have mentioned it. Zico did get the best of Gentile in the build up to the first equalizer though, the way he turned with the ball was almost humiliating for Gentile and the following pass from Zico proved his wonderful eye for the game.
     
  13. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    don't misunderstand me. i wasn't suggesting you were wrong. just engaging in a little debate about our thoughts on the match. :)
     
  14. Bergen

    Bergen New Member

    Oct 19, 2008
    Bergen
    hehe, ok then :) Well, I think that perhaps it was for the best of the match that Gentile was not booked again (although he certainly could have been), I can't see Italy managing to fight back with Collovati injured and Gentile dismissed. Zico would probably argue against me though:p
     
  15. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    The guy has nothing much to say. The interview was about his entire career. The game was his biggest highlight. He only mentioned Rossi scoring hattrick and Zico's shirt was teared apart. BTW, he made a critical call at the game. The ball went off the sideline and he called for the corner that led to the winning goal.
     
  16. andykeikei

    andykeikei New Member

    Aug 21, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    Did you have any chance seeing the Antognani's goal from a different angle? I think even that call is debatable.

    BTW I am from Hong Kong too:) Cheers
     
  17. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Antognani's goal?
     
  18. andykeikei

    andykeikei New Member

    Aug 21, 2008
    Club:
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    England
    The one that was ruled offside.
     
  19. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    I did not re-watch the match for thi thread. Yes, I belonged to this club, but I had seen this game before and not interested in re-watching it again on youtube.
     
  20. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    A few initial thoughts, I'll try and post up the fuller notes that I took later.

    Formations:

    Both sides played with very flexible systems which could easily have been from the modern game. Brazil in particular though had people popping up all over.

    This was my rough take on how they lined up

    Italy


    --------------Zoff

    --------------Scirea

    -------Collovati---Gentile

    Oriali-----------------------Cabrini

    ---------------Tardelli

    ----Conti-----------------Graziani

    ---------------Rossi

    Brazil

    ------------------Peres

    ------Leandro—Oscar—Luisinho—Junior

    -------Cerezo—Falcao—Socrates

    ---------------Zico-------------------Eder

    ----------------Serginho


    I thought that both teams sufered badly in the second half with the heat. Brazil just didn't seem to have the energy in the midfield in the latter stages.

    Also I think that Serginho was slightly unfairly maligned. He fluffed a couple of half chances but no clear cut opportunities. Brazil didn't really play to his strengths either, they didn't get enough bodies around the ball and into the box to make the most of his physicality.

    Reminded me a bit of the way that Heskey was previously criticised, despite contributing a lot of other qualities. If Brazil had got numbers moving off the front man they could have benefitted, but as it was there was no place playing him.

    Zico faded badly in the second half, but I don't think that was really due to Gentile. Zico seemed to stop showing for the ball and was content to allow the play to go on around him.

    Brazil's left side in the first half was woeful. Both Eder and Junior did very little, but they came into the game more.

    As Fraser pointed out, set pieces were a weakness for Brazil. Aimless blasts from 40 yards were a waste of some good opportunities. Italy used their opportunities better, and took advantage of that dubious corner in the second half.
     
  21. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    the overriding impression i got about Serginho was that his teammates had little or no confidence in him. i really thought the possibility was there to have a go at a young Bergomi who was inexperienced at that level.
     
  22. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    Yeah I agree. The team didn't make any use of Serginho, they barely gave him the ball, it only accidentally fell into his path. His first chance came about because Zico lost the ball, his second when Cerezo headed across the goal to him.

    I think Eder is to blame for not taking on Bergomi early doors. He did very little in the game I thought.
     
  23. frasermc

    frasermc Take your flunky and dangle

    Celtic
    Scotland
    Jul 28, 2006
    Newcastle-Upon-Tyne
    Club:
    Celtic FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Scotland
    i was actually taken aback by just how poor Eder was. i'm sure he started the tournament on fire. i'd need to try and view the USSR and Scotland matches to be certain. although to be honest, i'd rather not...

    i didn't think Junior played with much intelligence for most of the game which probably didn't benefit Eder in the match. the left hand side should have been a major positive for Brazil in an attacking sense but it ended up the complete opposite.
     
  24. comme

    comme Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 21, 2003
    I've got the USSR and New Zealand games, and I remember him being pretty good in those, but haven't watched them for a while.

    Junior came in to the came a lot more in the second half. Eder had an awful moment when he was 2 on 1 with Socrates, and just dwelt on the ball instead.
     
  25. Bergen

    Bergen New Member

    Oct 19, 2008
    Bergen
    [Eder had an awful moment when he was 2 on 1 with Socrates, and just dwelt on the ball instead.[/quote]

    Eder was not the only one who dwelt on the ball too long in my opinion, like I mentioned earlier this seemed to be a repeating scenario.

    I also have to mention your comment on Serginho, did you forget his chance after 10 minutes? Yes, it should have been an offside call, but the flag was never up and it beats me how Serginho could miss such a chance..
     

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