Chris Bergin: San Diego Chivas will follow MLS rules according to Trey Fitz-Gerald

Re: Re: Chris Bergin: San Diego Chivas will follow MLS rules according to Trey Fitz-

Dipsy Selolwane, on the other hand :-/

 

I just can't wait to see who he brings over from mexico. Vergara has re-strucured the Chivas franchise in the mold of Ajax. He has even brought people over from Ajax including, if i'm not mistaken, the director their youth program. They've set up a massive scouting campaign and have signed alot of young mexican talent. Maybe he'll bring some of that talent to MLS. We can always use some more budding stars

 

Absolutely...

I could also see him signing young Mexican Americans to Chivas de Guadalahara's youth teams, and bringing in the better ones as "discovery picks" etc.

 

Or maybe he will set up an academy in San Diego and bring Mexican players up there to play with his MexAm players.

 

Re: Re: No you mean...

I'm guessing it's covered in the Union agreement. Even if not, it would be legal as a Bona Fide Occupational Qualification (BFOQ).

 

So, if you are an Anglo and don't speak spanish and you live in San Deigo... what team do you support? Guess you are stuck without a 'home' team?

 

Yes, exactly. If Vergara puts a team in San Diego and attempts to market it to Mexicans who live in the area, then, no, you absolutely can't support that team if you're not Mexican, or maybe Hispanic, or, failing that, at least speak Spanish. Absolutely no reason whatsoever why you should consider a team that attempts to capitalize on a huge potential market in your area to also be your home team.

 

Wow, San Diego looks like the definite choice...I thought it was still pretty much up in the air.

Yes, in any other city, I would love to "hate" this team...but, I'll be one of the first in line for my season tix. GO CHIVAS! They'll stay within MLS rules, I'm cool with that.

 

That was my point earlier, but you worded it much better. Kudos!

 

Well, actually, I was being sarcastic, but, then again, maybe you were too.

 

Won't Hispanic fans just look at it as just another MLS team?
Is the name going to make that much difference?
Will they care more about the team simply because it's owned by a Mexican owner?
Just asking because MLS has had a difficult time selling to Mexican fans.
I know they claim they know how to market to the Mexican/American and Mexican communities better but I have my doubts. I hope it suceeds but I'm not as convinced as the Chivas owner that he's going to fill the stadium every week in San Diego as he has stated, or even close.

 

HAHAHAHA...thats right

 

The news outlets will give it more coverage. The name brand says a bit. But more important is the fact that they will probably play a game that Latinos will recognize, AND in the future they will be able to recognize themselves in that Chivas will make a concerted effort to tap into the barrios, which until know have not been properly resourced (for a lot of complicated reasons).

It gives the communities (emphasis on the plural, as Latinos are not a monolithic entity) a sense that, hey, the US soccer establishment is doing something to include us in the future of the sport. There are some Latinos on the USMNT, but a lot of them are products of suburban soccer clubs, not the barrio, and/or they've had to assimilate to a British-esque style of play.

 

Re: Re: Chris Bergin: San Diego Chivas will follow MLS rules according to Trey Fitz-Gerald

That's actually the point the lawyers would make. In discrimination law, the easy part is proving "discriminatory impact"-- in the US, every workplace that's not completely balanced would arguably show this.

But many cases fail because you also have to prove an intent to discriminate. I mean, how many companies are going to go around and tell people "Hey we only hire white people!!!"? Really, who would be that dumb?

Unfortunately, Vergara's been running his mouth, so I think Chivas STD will have to watch its steps carefully.

 

Re: Chris Bergin: San Diego Chivas will follow MLS rules according to Trey Fitz-Gera

I wonder how this can be achieved. With a coach who imports a specific mentality? I mean, it seems pretty obvious that this new club, if it happens,will have a roster make-up not dis-similar to the other 10 MLS clubs. How can such a team play the type of football to which you refer? Or, put another way, just what do you mean by "a game that Latinos will recognize?" I'm not trying to be confrontational, by the way. But I do doubt that SD Chivas will be appreciably different from any other MLS club, but for the name. And, in the past, the league has brought in other foreign coaches with strong CVs. They've pretty much all flopped. I suspect it's because they really didn't understand the American soccer landscape within which they had to operate as MLS coaches.

It'll be an interesting experiment. Again, if it happens.

 

And you know what?

Chivas USA or San Diego Chupacabras will become the most hated U.S. team in Mexico.

And once again it will prove the perennial social fact: any Mexican living in the U.S. and enjoying the freedom, prosperity --no matter social status-- and American justice system, becomes a "de facto" "paria" for many Mexicans.

Can you imagine Chivas USA representing MLS and touring Mexico against Atlas, America, Morelia, Irapuato, Veracruz, etc...?

Many healthy rivalries and passionate encounters will come out of SAN DIEGO CHUPACABRAS...

C'mon over... not a minute too soon...

 

I can't say I'm convnced Chivas SD is a venture that's sure to succeed. There's all sorts of potential problems and they've already shown they don't understand the cultural intricacies.
(1) The hispanic community (as has beenpointed out earlier) is not a single cultural type. There's people who just arrived in the US from Mexico by various, not all of them illegal, means. And then there's people who have been part of the US since the end of the Mexican American War in 1848. These various comunities don't necessarily get along. And let's not forget the various Central American communities. There's already a great deal of friction between the various hispanic communities.
(2) Although hispanics are a strong economic force, the real corporate power resides with the anglos. You can't make money on a sports team in the US without strong sales of corporate boxes.
(3) There seems to be a certain arrogance in the Chivas people, kind of like "we'll show you how it's really done." Arrogant outsiders are prone to generate hostility no matter what the situation.
(4) Businesses are simply run different in Mexico than the US. In Mexico, there's seldom any need for any kind of openness and nobody questions things. Here, everybody questions everything.

In short, this is going to be awfully interesting. I can't wait to see how it all plays out.

 

Re: Re: Re: No you mean...

But if "Fiddler on the Roof" needs someone to portray a Russian/Jewish dancer instead of any old dancer, why can't Chivas require their employees to portray Hispanic soccer players (rather than just fill the role of "socer player")?

 

No sarcasm intended this time...

If you grew up watching Latin American soccer, you probably have expectations about what soccer looks like that don't always match well with MLS (e.g., emphases on ball control skills over commitment or effort; praise for dribbling and showtime moves over criticism of inefficient dribbling; short possession passing over more direct balls; officiating that punishes physical play over officiating that just lets 'em play, etc.).

Obviously, not all teams play in that style all the time, but that's what people want to see. Watch a full season's week in, week out worth of MFL, Colombian, or Brazilian soccer and that's the style that you'll see most teams trend toward and fans and commentators encourage.

And, just as obviously, today's MLS isn't really a poor man's version of the SPL or English First Division. But it's hard to change perceptions that were ingrained during the league's early seasons. MLS started off on the wrong foot with the likes of Bobby Houghton and Frank Stapleton. There's now some soccer played in MLS every week that could appeal more effectively to fans who grew up following Latin American soccer, but it's hard to get that message across.

If SD Chivas can play in that style, maybe it'll help appeal to a market that hasn't found the style of play in MLS very attractive.

I agree that it's not clear that a team that operates under MLS salary and roster constraints can play that style and win in MLS. You could probably do it if you have the sorts of players that you have at River, Cruzeiro, Sao Paulo, or the better MFL teams. But if you try to play in the style that SD Chivas may attempt on a roster within MLS salaries, I don't think you can deal with MLS' pace of play and physical style (and officiating that allows it). We'll see.

 

Re: Re: Re: Re: No you mean...

Why didn't Coca-Cola just say that african-americans couldn't portray white executives? They ended up paying many millions to settle lawsuits against a group of of their african-american employees not too long ago. Hey, I'm not a lawyer. But if I was a hungry California job discrimination lawyer, I'd take a shot at this one just for the publicity and the chance that they'd settle out of court.

 

Gee, I guess that if I was Hispanic in any of the other MLS cities, I shouldn't support the local "Anglo" MLS team because they are not my 'home' team.

People commonly complain over and over again about all those furriners and Euro-snobs that won't support US soccer, but god forbid if a team wants to have an ethnic bent to it, all those "Anglos" get their panties in a bunch. If it wasn't for ethnic teams in the 50's and 60's keeping soccer alive, we wouldn't be where we are today.

Where are you from, law5guy?

- Paul

 

Re: Re: Chris Bergin: San Diego Chivas will follow MLS rules according to Trey Fitz-Gerald

I agree that the likelihood of success for a prospective SD Chivas is certainly an open question, but...

True enough. First, it's not clear whether Vergara will market to just Mexicans or to a broader Latin audience. If Vergara decides to really just go for the Mexican audience, then maybe that's enough to run a good business in and around SD, maybe not. I don't think we have any way of assessing that question reasonably at this point, but if he wants to spend his money, then I'm happy to watch him try to make it work.

It's not a question of whether Anglos have more economic power than Hispanics. The question is whether the market that Vergara intends to target in SD has enough economic power to make that prospective business work there. I don't think we know.

I'm not sure I'd call it arrogance. Vergara believes that there's a market consisting of soccer fans that finds the soccer played in MLS unappealing, but would find the soccer played by a SD Chivas appealing. That's not arrogance - it's just good market definition. It remains to be seen if that market will support his prospective business, but that's another question.

Well, I suppose reasonable people can differ about these sorts of things. The level of openness required in running some types of businesses in the US isn't really that open. And most of the Mexican business people with whom I've dealt are quite well-informed about American business and legal rules and practices.

Yup. Si.