Champ Car vs IRL 2007

He will have some part of Indy. N/H/L just purchased part of NASCAR's RYR.

 

What the Brickyard 400? Big deal, it's just a race. I'm talking the league.

 

When you said Indy, I could only assume Indianapolis Motor Speedway since Indy is accepted as shorthand for the track. Should have said IRL then.

 

Actually IRL is the league. Indy is now the name of the top level racing circuit, like Sprint Cup is in NASCAR. IRL got rights back to the INDY name a few years ago.

 

The actual name of the IRL's top series is "Indy Car Series" not "Indy". The IRL's second divison (like NASCAR's Busch Series) is called "Indy Pro Series".

Also, Indanapolis Motor Speedway and the George/Hulman family have always held the rights to use "Indy". It was leased to CART. If I recall correctly, when CART chose not to run the Indy 500 they broke the contract to be allowed to use the name "Indy".

 

Well you chose a good time to tune in. That was by far the best race we've put on yet. 2005 sucked balls, 2006 improved the course but was still a Bourdaisfest, 2007 was an actual race. Good day for San Jose, first the race then the AFL championship.

 

Does anyone know if they have any plans to replace it next season? If not then Champ Car will end up having at least one if not two more races than IRL next season with the expected addition of the delayed China race in Champ Car.

 

Has anyone been able to find today's race on TV after the rain delay today? This can't be helping IRL's TV ratings or attendance numbers overall.

 

It was on ESPN Classic.

 

Attendance numbers would not have been affected, that would be from tickets sold not who showed up. I am sure there were fans that had been there and left the track thinking they would never get the track dry to finish the race today.

The race was very exciting if you found it. Glad Dario is OK after his big crash. http://sports.espn.go.com/rpm/news/story?seriesId=1&id=2962484

 

I did end up finding it. Can't say I thought it was exciting however. After that crash they wasted 25 or more laps cleaning the course off. And yes attendance numbers would have been effected. I'm sure they offered rain checks to some people due to the rain. And the all important sponsors don't care about ticket sold but butts in the seats and people watching on TV. So the lack of fans in the seats was definitely detrimental.

 

I am sure if they could have started the race a hour or more sooner they would have done the NASCAR thing and threw the red flag to clean up the track that late in the race. With the threat of more weather closing in and the lack of available daylight had to have factored in for them not to red flag the race.

Lacked excitement? I am a fan of 3 and 4 wide racing through the corners along with passing. Just about every form of racing that runs at MIS has that including todays race. 23 lead changes among 9 drivers.

Great track with great racing. MIS deserves more dates all around. In addition to the show on the track, MIS has some of the best traffic control around. After getting to your car you are out of the grounds and on a major highway within 15 minutes. The Late North Wilkesboro Speedway took well over an hour to get to the highway. Pocono took 45 minutes. Indy is in the same ballpark but with the track being in the middle of a small town that was to be expected.

What could MIS have offered rain checks for since the IRL and CCWS will not be competing at the track next season? It is a real shame that no open wheel event will take place there next season. Rain checks for all forms of racing that I have ever attended, from local dirt tracks to the Indianapolis 500, are for when the event is finally run, whether it be the next day or the next available date. The only time I personally have heard of anything different was the 2004 USGP when Michelin offered tickets to the 2005 event since they ruined the 2004 race.

As far as tickets sold, when you could not attend the NASCAR Sonoma race earlier this year, if you had already purchased the ticket, they would have still counted you in the official attendance for the event even though the ticket went unused. It does help to artificially inflate attendance numbers. I have attended many Steeler games in the past where the stadium was 3/4 filled but the game was listed as a sell-out. When the IRL, CCWS, ARCA, NASCAR and others are making pitches to potential sponsors they will be showing attendance figures, TV ratings and website hits.

For TV ratings, I am sure that got affected big time as ESPN Classic is not in as many homes as ESPN and ESPN2. ESPN2 did keep a crawl at the bottom of the screen during women's tennis saying the race was on ESPN Classic.

Speaking of ESPN Classic, the CCWS will be on that network for 2 events. Belgium, August 26 at 8am ET and The Netherlands, September 2 at 7am ET.

 

True, but the races from CCWS on ESPN Classic are races running in the afternoon in Europe. They're going to be on early in morning on the East Coast to say nothing of the west coast. That said, I'm sure IRL will inflate the numbers for the race today. But I doubt attendance was good to begin with. That's been one of MIS's problems in recent years.

 

Just got home from taking my Mom to chemotherapy and on ESPN2 they were rebroadcasting the IRL race. I was shocked to see that. I had not noticed ESPN rebroadcasting either CCWS or IRL races in the recent past.

It is still no reason the races could not be on ESPN or ESPN2. All they broadcast on ESPN in the morning is SportsCenter over and over and over again or the Sports Reporters or Outside the Lines. It would be nice to see the CCWS there instead of on Classic.

I am sure both the IRL and CCWS are guilty of inflating attendance figures.

CART and MIS did not renew their contract after 33 races in 2001 in part because of dwindling attendance. It is not just an IRL thing CART/CCWS had the same problem. The IRL is losing the date at the track because MIS is doing what Bernie did with the USGP, taking his ball and going home.

 

No in this case IRL was Bernie. MIS can't keep holding the race this weekend. Not with the NASCAR race not two weeks away. IRL needed to offer them their old weekend back and this all could have been avoided. But good ole Roger Penske doesn't want that because it benefits him for MIS to be off the schedule.

But regardless MIS has had open wheel attendance woes for almost a decade. It's just sad to see IRL lose another oval. A few more drop off and they'll lose the purpose their league was founded on (supposedly).

 

MIS President Roger Curtis made the decision to drop the IndyCar Series from his track's 2008 schedule when he and Indy Racing League officials were unable to agree on a date. Last I saw there is still 4+ months left in 2007. Lots of time to still work out a date for next season but MIS cut it off. MIS will only have 5 dates next season. 2 Sprint Cup races, 1 Busch Series race, 1 Craftsman Truck Series race and 1 ARCA Re/Max Series race. At that it is only 2 race weekends!!! That leaves 24 possible weeks to run an event. Plus, who else is looking to ad MIS to their schedule? I hope CCWS.

Also in the article is this "I have no problem with Belle Isle," he (Roger Curtis) added. "I think it's a fantastic event, and I applaud Mr. Penske and [Detroit] Mayor [Kwame] Kilpatrick for what they are doing to keep the momentum going after the Super Bowl. I think two separate open-wheel events could have coexisted in this market because they are totally night and day -- a street course on an island and a high-speed, superspeedway oval. I was fine with that event -- but not when we're less than 30 days apart in the same market." But he was OK with being less than 30 days apart from the CCWS GP of Cleveland? It is only 18 minute more drive from Cleveland to Brooklyn than to Detroit.

Honda required the IRL to switch Mid-Ohio's date with MIS's, not Roger.

I am totally lost by MIS saying that they cannot "turn the track around" from IRL to NASCAR in 2 weeks. Sports arenas all around the country are changed from one kind of sporting event to a different one within hours. (hockey to basketball and such). MIS has to repaint the walls to cover the accident marks (already done after each session on the track). They have to change some of the billboards. They have to build the VIP areas (which they have to wait for them to be shipped in from the previous racing event). Two weeks is more than enough time to change the track from IRL to NASCAR. You would also think it would be easier to change from IRL to NASCAR because of the lower attendance, less cleanup needed. If they cannot, they need a new staff.

This season the IRL is running 12 ovals and 5 road courses. If the oval race is not replaced then it will be 11 ovals and 5 road courses. Like I said before, it was not a surprise to me that the IRL added road courses since they stayed with "formula" style cars. If they would have gone more to their USAC roots (no wings and no ground effects) then they could have stayed oval only. I am still waiting for NASCAR to add more road courses and drop some of the second date for events.

 

The race I'm hearing mentioned that would replace Michigan is Phoenix, which is another oval. I don't know whether or not that is going to happen, but I hope they add extra dates as well.

 

Well it's not likely CCWS will be racing at MIS any time soon. Infact I would highly doubt you'll ever see CCWS race on an oval ever again. It's just not the direction their series is going anymore. It's also one of the reasons I don't see the two series merging anytime soon if ever. IRL and Champ Car have moved too far apart, both in car and track philosophy. You'll see CCWS add more street circuits and international races for sure, but no ovals.

Also I wouldn't hold my breath for NASCAR to add anymore road courses. They're not popular with the majority of the fanbase. And that's only with the two that are on the schedule. I happen to personally enjoy the two they do have, as I go the Infineon Raceway event annually (except this year when I got a massive concussion not 24 hours before race time and lost my memory for over a day, talk about bad timing). But the majority of race fans I've talked to online and in person feel road courses aren't NASCAR.

Third, though they don't say it outright, Penske was part of the reason MIS is going away. Belle Is. and MIS are obviously very different events, but they both draw from the same dwindling open-wheel fanbase. And having the two events so close together hurts attendance at both with the high price of race tickets these days. You can bet the farm Roger something to do with MIS being offed. Not a big part, but definitely a part. If MIS wasn't moved back to it's old weekend he didn't want it around.

And fourth, transitioning the track should be easy, but it's not just the transition time that was hurting MIS, it's the oversaturation of the racetrack. Take IMS. They have Indy in the Spring and the Brickyard 400 in the mid summer. The event spacing is critical. If IRL had offered MIS their old traditional weekend back you can bet they would have taken it and the race would be going on in 08. But because IMS wanted the Brickyard 400 moved it set off the chain of events that led to today.

 

That is a shame, it would be a great chance for CCWS to rub it in the IRL's face. When CART went bankrupt the IRL went in trying to get Long Beach and Cleveland.

This is another shame. Too bad they are not popular with the fans since they draw tremendously well for their road course events. Plus, the cars look great bouncing off of the curbs. NASCAR is my favorite form of motorsport and I would love to see at least 2 more road courses. Drop the second Pocono date and run at BeaveRun Motorsports Complex (only about a hour north of me). I know it is too short and too narrow for NASCAR.

Funny thing with NASCAR, they claim history is why they will not change things yet they take away their second most historic race, the Southern 500, and they totally revamp their championship.

Would seem odd if it were true since Penske had owned MIS for a few years and helped save the track from possible closure. He invested millions of dollars to rebuild the garages and hospitality suites in the infield not to mention refurbishing the grandstands and building more to accommodate more fans for the CART and NASCAR series. He probably made most if not all of his investment back with the sale of MIS and California (which he built from the ground up) to ISC but these tracks were his babies. If I were him, I would want to still race at both tracks.

If Penske is getting that powerful in the IRL, expect the IRL to have to deal with its own split soon. Penske was a driving force behind the formation of CART when they split from USAC.

Personally, I do not see it as oversaturation. It is still 3 just race weekends at the track out of a potential 24-26 weekends (can't race in the winter). Three weekends to make money beyond sponsorships. Granted any open wheel event will not make near as much as a Cup event but it will draw similar to the truck series and more than ARCA. Since you say CCWS will not run an oval again that leaves MIS with a very limited customer base.

If MIS is worried about competition from Belle Isle they should be just as worried about Cleveland's CCWS race. Or Mid-Ohio. Or Indianapolis Motor Speedway. Or Chicagoland. All 5 open wheel courses are within 4 hours of Brooklyn, MI. Road America and the Milwaukee Mile are within 6.5 hours.

The Brickyard was only moved up one week from its original weekend. It was switched with the second Pocono date. According to Wikipedia, take that for what it's worth, the date change was at the request of ESPN and not IMS. If you are going to drop $4.48 billion for broadcast rights I would think this is not an unreasonable request.

 

I, for one, have grown to appreciate both series. The IRL has a few of my fave drivers(Helio, Dario) but not many of my fave street or road courses. Champ Car I like as well or better but the drivers in this series are not much to brag about IMHO. I would love to see them merge and soon.

As per IMS, from what I gather from native Hoosiers(Indiana residents) the fact that so many other motorsports series use the track now and the reduction of the role of the Indy 500 (i.e. qualifying cut in half, from a whole month to two weeks) not many Hoosiers care that much about the track or it's events.

Sounds like sour grapes to me. I always felt that a month to qualify for one race was ridiculous.

I think they should let Champ Car run on the F1 course now that F1 is gone.


I'm also sure that if pookspur reads this he will either soundly disagree or not care at all...

 

You make a valid point. I can live with it either way but I would like to see champ Car @ Indy.

 

On the road couse in theory it could work as that's exactly the kind of racing CCWS is doing now. The oval of course wouldn't fit anymore. CCWS hasn't had an oval on their schedule in over 2 years and they have no plans to ever re add one.

That said, CCWS ever racing on any track in Indy won't happen as long as Tony George still draws breath. And I think a full merger is even more unlikely given the gap between the series philosophies that is just continuing to grow. That said, if Tony were to die or pull his head out of his ass I can see them hooking up for a few joint weekend style events where one series runs Saturday the other Sunday on a road course or two. But beyond that, I don't see any need for them to have anything to do with each other anymore.

As long as IMS is subsidizing IRL it will continue to exist. And with the Brickyard 400, MotoGP Indy Grand Prix, and the Indy 500 running at IMS that will continue to work well for them. And as long as Champ Car continues on the course they've set, attracting teams like Minardi from F1 and expanding their worldwide footprint and city center races like San Jose and Vegas, their future looks bright too.