CBA negotiations

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by SouthRef, Jan 5, 2024.

  1. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  2. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    This might just put to bed the annual debate on whether Penso will ever get MLS Cup.
     
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  3. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    Weighing in briefly on PRO's charge vs Penso et. al. There are many assignors in college soccer who do not have clean hands. Whether it is requiring officials to join a specific organization or purchase a particular uniform, or explicitly stating that replacement referees would not be given assignments, college soccer is a checkered ethical landscape. I would imagine a big part of what makes Chris attractive to a conference is his extensive on field experience and network of contacts. For any official on the AAC list to take games while your assignor is locked out seems to me to be a clear statement to the assignor. Whether it was explicitly stated or not, AAC officials who chose to work for PRO had to know that their might be repercussions to that choice. At the same time, there are many people who are working for PRO who have similar conflicts with the other hats that they wear, and they are leveraging these contacts to get people to work as replacements. The whole situation is extremely unfortunate.
     
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  4. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    FWIW, one of ARs on the MLS season opener was on the 2023 AAC's semi and final game. Guess he decided he finally got as far as he wanted on the college side and knew the ramifications for crossing.

    You don't really need to apply this at a collegiate level as it happens pretty much nationwide from youth all the way to semi-pro, so I'm not really surprised.
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    That would seem to be retaliatory.
     
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  6. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Yes, what people can't seem to grasp isn't that Penso was being retaliatory. It was the fact that he put in writing in a mass email.

    I doubt Geiger and anyone at PRO are gonna send our a mass email or private email to each other and say "don't assign Penso MLS Cup ever."

    That's the issue.
     
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  7. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    Well I thought it was funny.
     
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  8. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    What will force ownership’s hand will be transitioning the replacements into full timers. Guys aren’t in the league for a reason… ability or the time commitment it takes v competing obligations. Getting guys that are good enough to do a one off, or a couple of games isn’t that hard. Getting guys to do 20-30 games and give up current professional or other obligations and not want what the full timers are asking for is another thing.

    It’s also not like management can reduce the workload and number of employees needed.

    The problem is that will take a while to work itself out. This is likely to be a long strike to see who can hold out longer.
     
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  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is a good point. I would also add that the replacements are going to be at least two tiers below, insofar as overall quality goes, the regular on-field product. There might be some exceptions, but eventually it will become clear that these aren't even the referees that you normally put out on USLC matches (or the ones MLS clubs get--er, got--in USOC matches).

    Agree on the first part. But on the second, we've had one single game with--again, one has to presume--the best crew PRO thought it could put on the field. "A while" and "long" can mean similar things, but they can also be different. For me, I think the "work itself out" component is measured in games that don't go very well. We have a sample size of one, so far. If it's one or two bad games a week, then maybe the strike is "long" (1-2 months?). If it's more like 3-5 games a week, then it's probably a much different story. Reality could change quickly.
     
  10. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Has anyone here actually read this letter, out of curiosity
     
  11. TheRealBilbo

    TheRealBilbo Member+

    Apr 5, 2016
    the Geiger one? I’m not sure that’s a letter you write if things are going your way. These are things you don’t explain. It was whiny.
     
  12. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The one Penso is getting shit for
     
  13. OkieZebra

    OkieZebra Member

    Aug 11, 2013
    Club:
    Norwich City FC
    In the previous NFL lockout in 2001, they had D1 officials doing double duty (plus NFL Europe and a functioning Arena League). And that ended pretty quick after 9/11.
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You can argue it's relatively benign, but then I think you also have to accept this is just a tit-for-tat thing. Geiger's initial letter isn't that terrible, either. Do they both have "threats?" Sure.

    The dust will settle eventually on all of this one day. One of my hopes is that the language and charges the lawyers must make don't spill over to adversely affect the personal and professional relationships that so many of these guys have had for years and years. That could be tough in some individual situations. But overall, I'm hopeful. A lot of this is the necessary noise that is inherent in a labor dispute.
     
  15. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    Are Simmons, Kadlecik, and Prus still with PRO2? Count them also.
     
  16. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I know Kad is still with PRO2, but I also don't think he's ever been a VAR before unlike the list above.
     
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  17. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    None of them have VAR experience. And they still have to do their jobs for PRO2.
     
  18. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    Haven't considered this yet, but would an injury to a replacement ref where they're forced off the field mid-game be a Fail Mary scenario? That would lend credence to these replacements are prepared for MLS and surely PSRA would have an "I told you so" and say they pulled these guys off the street without the proper vetting. Vetting includes match fitness right?
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Well, no one had to pass a fitness test and--without hurling direct insults--it shows in some instances today. So I'm not sure it takes an injury to make this case.

    Also, there are protocols in place for an injury. I understand that each referee liaison was asked to make sure a local qualified referee was present tonight. Now, the interpretation I got was that this was a fail-safe in case any assigned official accepted a match under false pretenses (or simply had a last minute change of heart). But it would obviously apply for injury, too.
     
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  20. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    There's nothing in Penso's email-letter that directly suggests retaliation for accepting MLS replacement assignments. That said, I'm sure people have already been removed from his group, which is his prerogative.
     
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  21. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    Of course there isn't.

    But let me ask you, how would you interpret the line of "Consider your options. Value your relationships?" (That was the only part actually bolded in the memo/email he sent out.)

    If that isn't an indirect threat, I don't know what is.

    Penso has every right to remove officials or not assign officials for accepting assignments as MLS replacement referees.

    I have no problem with that. However, there was no need for him to send that out. If he wanted to get the word out by word of mouth, he could of done that.

    That email/memo is basically PRO's evidence for unfair labor practice by Penso/PSRA with the NLRB.
     
  22. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Does he?

    That’s a serious question. I have no idea how labor law works. But to my uninformed brain, it seems at least to be in question if PRO is alleging that it was unfair labor practices to send out such an email. Unless the argument is that the retaliation is legal but an email threatening retaliation is not…

    Someone who’s more in-the-know fill me in here. Would they have a right to blackball referees who take these MLS assignments? Or is that against some sort of labor law?
     
  23. Twotone Jones

    Twotone Jones Member

    United States
    Apr 12, 2023
    There are qualified college refs and ARs that are not in the AAC group for whatever reason prior to this lockout, so there's definitely a workaround. But it doesn't look good that people in the AAC group that were recommended for NCAA tournament games won't be in the group on August 1st when the season starts. Blackball = No. Worse/Lesser assignments = maybe. Fewer assignments = probably.

    But don't get it twisted, there are PSRA members who have "contacted" replacement referees to discuss "things" or "options" or their side. Those discussions might be perceived as informational by some or bullying by others. You can bet that PRO reps who are assigning the replacement referees are hearing about these conversations. That won't affect PRO employment, like the AAC stuff, but it could impact future assignments just like above.
     
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  24. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member+

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Wondering if the unwillingness to pay assistant referees better has anything to do with their perceived future role. If SAOT and GLT become standard then honestly how good does an AR need to be?

    of course this assumes they are thinking it through that far which is quite an assumption but still.
     
  25. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    Go Corey.
     
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