Canadian Premier league

Discussion in 'Canada' started by mikehurst21, Feb 3, 2016.

  1. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    @Yoshou
    I already said that I found the wages too low and that I fully support a union but that doesn't matter since I'm a league "apologist" so responding to all your points won't since an "apologist" invalidates any point (valid or not I could make)

    I'm just wondering if you're that vocal about how USL run their league decades into it's existence

    Going back to CPL - someone had posted a comparison with other leagues and in US dollars that places the league around where Ireland is slightly below Finland (which happens to be 30 years old)
    upload_2021-2-12_14-13-11.png

    I've been prepping for next week podcast on the matter so you're take isn't entirely wrong but there's some lack of context and I don't blame you at all because Rollins article makes a poor attempt at doing that.

    Reality is just that, we need post COVID normalcy before we see true change and by then, the union should have been ratified by all the provincial labour boards
     
  2. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Oh and CONCACAF went further with their dealings with MediaPro
    Also, people in the know are saying that MediaPro Canada will bid for the Canadian MLS rights.

    With Bell Media (TSN & RDS - current MLS rights holders) going on a firing rampage and gutting the soccer division...doesn't look to good for them making a serious bid for the renewal. We'll see though ;)
     
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  3. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    Just curious, but what do you think having a union is going to mean for wages?

    I can see the union potentially being useful as a way for the players to voice concerns about minor items or setting the stage for longer term issues like free agency (for when they start offering contracts for longer than two years).

    For wages, though, the revenue just isn't there. The league is still entirely dependent on the owners absorbing losses to get things established. It's not like the players can argue for a bigger piece of the revenue pie.
     
  4. Expansion Franchise

    Chattanooga FC
    United States
    Apr 7, 2018
    Trying to avoid getting painted with the apologist brush, but it feels relevant that the CPL season is 6 months long. I don’t think they should have to, but they could theoretically have another source of income for the other half of the year.

    What I didn’t see is if any housing is included. That’s a tactic lower league clubs in the U.S. use in lieu of a decent salary.
     
  5. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Establishing some kind of floor is realistic goal but not much beyond that. I found it interesting that the union brought up that clubs were not spending 50% of expanse on salaries. What should be the right % to spend on player's salary vs. overall expanse?

    The union might have something there but Valour's financial record is as close as it gets for transparency, they lost ~$200K in 2019 and spent $3M in operation. 50% means a salary budget of 1.5M - however coaching staff was said to be included when the league said "North of $1M". So the players' cut excluding coaching staff being around $750k starts to to kind of make sense.

    As you point out, they will be more effective regarding working conditions like replicating the housing accommodations provided by Halifax to the entire league (condo complex on the waterfront) and they also partner with local businesses which give additional perks to players. Halifax treats their players the best from what I've heard and that should be the bare minimum across the league
     
  6. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Clubs are mandated by the league to provide housing to all internationals but clubs extends that to domestic players from what I've heard but it varies (Halifax puts everyone in condos and treat players relatively the same - York players sharing townhouses)
     
  7. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    More fun with salaries and roster rules in CPL.

    According to the players' union, there is no actual minimum salary in CPL. The article mentions that while most of the players making less than minimum wage (which is $11.06/hour or $23k/year in Canada), it also includes a number of veteran players. The article also mentions that even though the cap is $750k (and it may increase to $800k this season), the average is around $500k. I would imagine that in addition to getting a minimum salary, the players' union will also be pushing for a salary floor.

    Something that I wasn't aware of is that the new scouting contract CPL has includes a provision that requires teams to have a minimum of 4 international players.

    https://northerntribune.ca/isacco-touches-on-cpl-wages/

    There's quite a bit of other good information in the article and, if you are so inclined, you can listen to Isacco's full interview here:

    http://futbolweekly.com/?page_id=2729
     
  8. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3858 Robert Borden, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    Nothing fun about that really - I interviewed a few players and we are all doing our part to push the league to improve.

    However, there's a lack of nuance in the reporting. It's true that there's no official minimum salary and clubs are pretty much doing what they want but there lies the difference. Not all clubs manages the same

    Halifax spends up to the cap and tries to equalize the pay among all it's players which was said many times by Derek Martin (ownership). No players contradicted that claim up until today. All the players are provided with housing in new condos with extra perks via local partnership which covers some food expanse.

    On a 20 man roster (the 3 draftee cannot be compensated like the others due to the U-Sport deal), you're looking at ~$35k per players give and take and with Atlantic Canada costs of living being on the lower end - that's about what was expected for year 1.

    Edmonton You won't find many in these parts questioning the Fath brothers about the treatment of their players with their track record. They are working within the limits set by the league. I don't think they would be that far off from Halifax.

    Forge owner is also the money backer of Halifax. Although we can't verify if they have the same managerial style as the Wanderers, they have lots of players who could easily find work elsewhere at better pay opting to come back signing longer deals. Very doubtful that Bob Young would be that much different with their strong core of Canadians while not rely that much on imports. They do spend up the cap and are a known party pushing to increase the cap - Bob Young is ambitious about Forge.

    York had a minimum salary but that was removed in 2020 when they changed team president. York has been pretty bad though and have cleaned house 2 years in a row going younger with an age average of ~22/23 years old going into 2021. The new club president doesn't even hide that he felt no one deserved a pay increase after 2020. There was lots of reports of players being unhappy there in 2019 and Carmine confirms how things works there. Yes, York has been bad and expect pricey imports at the expand of domestic players.

    There was the same kind of reports coming out of Winnipeg, lots of players didn't want to return but signed elsewhere. They definitely spent against the cap though but over paid mediocre / older imports while domestics not getting that much.

    I really don't know how Cavalry runs things so we could assume that they would be like York and Winnipeg based on Marcus Haber comments - Cavalry took the youth path like York and spent much more on imports.

    Ottawa
    would be unknown at this point, the club is actually being ran from Madrid so I'm thinking they are here to find the next David or Davies. They had a mix of Veterans and youth. Time will tell but Madrid wants results in the league.

    Pacific not spending against the full cap in 2019 is not a surprised and the obvious choice. There were reports that some clubs wanted the cap raised and others resisted that which has Pacific writing all over it. Based on how they said they wanted to run their club and it being the youngest while loading up on academy players, yeah - I can see how they weren't paid that much. Most of their re-investment is towards grassroots on Vancouver Island.

    Over half the players making less than minimum, I definitely see it but it's important to know that clubs aren't being ran the same way across the board. This where you need a union to step in and raise the standards across the board because right now, looks like we have a 2 tier league in regards to wages.

    Halifax should be the bare minimum in my opinion and the union should build on that. Clubs wouldn't necessarily need to replicate what Halifax decided to do but a floor cap is priority #1.

    There's not much that can be done in regards to Usports developmental contracts as there are legal implications attached to it. Players gets paid by the club but if they sign a pro contract, there something that happens with their scholarship and student status. USports bend the rules for CPL but this is as good as it gets for them for a while.

    Free agency will be a long term battle like virtually everywhere else.

    One of the things CPL keep claiming and I call BS on that is how they are condensing the schedule into a maximum of 7 months. This is a wage control mechanism in my opinion. This increases travel time, lowers recovery time, increases risks of injuries.

    They use the weather "argument" but Grey Cups being played outdoor at -20C raises an eyebrow. Nothing prevents prairies clubs from starting their season on the road in Vancouver Island and Southern Ontario.

    The union has some work cut out for them.
    Yes, this was divisive across the league. York's GM championed the initiative and as Carmine explained very well, this created a huge wage gap between imports and domestic players while lowering their value...because "analytic".

    I know he said (Angus McNab) defended it by saying that too many clubs signed underwhelming imports (definitely a jab at Winnipeg, Edmonton and former York management). He's not wrong but while 21st Club should be "A" tool, it shouldn't be "THE" tool.

    Halifax, Winnipeg and Edmonton were among those who resisted this. Stephen Hart is not a fan at all.

    Isacco's interview was York-centric though - other clubs welcome veterans (Winnipeg & Edmonton being an example) while clubs like York and Pacific focus on youth (Cavalry opted for that approach in 2021).

    The structure of the league invites for such disagreements and difference in managing style. Nonetheless, the union is needed - it shouldn't be a 2 tier league in regards of wage and working conditions.

    Nothing about what I wrote disapprove what Rollins or the union is claiming but this isn't across the board - important to raise the nuance.
     
  9. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yes.. You see, in math, when once says that that CPL teams used, on average, $500k of their $750k average that does, in fact, mean that there will be teams above that average, while there will be teams below that average. That's not a matter of "nuance" as you claim, that's just simple math. You seem to be conflating "nuance" with specificity.

    Now, the question is, how close to the median is the average and is the average above, or below the median. The average being below the median would be preferable as that would mean teams are, by and large, paying their players better, while the average being above the median would mean only a few are paying their players well.

    As an example, using the $500k average, that would mean the league as a whole is paying $4,000,000 in compensation. If we use your by team descriptions and say Halifax, Edmonton, and Hamilton are paying their teams at or close to the salary cap, that would mean three teams represent roughly 56% of the league's total compensation and the other clubs are, on average, paying around $300k in compensation.

    Hopefully that isn't the case, but until we get some specificity as to what each teams are paying, all we have is league averages and, realistically, none of what is coming out is particularly good for the league.
     
  10. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3860 Robert Borden, Feb 18, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 18, 2021
    Rollins report, which was poorly done is base on "players" (he won't say how many nor how big was the sample). The union says his numbers are correct and throws the $500K figure without explain where they got that from other their their "estimation".

    You have to keep in mind that this isn't being reported by mainstream media which would have challenged both sides. Everyone saw cuts in 2020 - I can see how they didn't see this being newsworthy in this COVID environment. This is mostly being thrown on social media, wrote about on blogs, debated on forums and discussed on podcasts.

    I know you want to be right but let's be serious for a second.

    Which year was Rollins talking? ohhh - he conveniently left that out of his text!

    Rollins : https://www.canadiansoccernews.com/...npls-problem-its-about-the-money-stupid-r127/
    Union

    The revenue estimate is based on the financial statement from Valour in 2019 who were among those with the highest attendance. Yet the $500K is an "estimation" which doesn't specify which year they are actually talking about.

    Must be 2020 because after the 25% cut, players were paid 75% of their salaries for the 2 months-long Islands Games which brings you to ~$562,300 cap. If not everyone spent against that cap - the $500k starts to make sense

    So that would most likely mean that Rollins salary breakdown was based on 2020 and not 2019? How can we know - he didn't write which year he was talking about :rolleyes:

    Winnipeg financial statements suggests they DID spend against the cap in 2019. Halifax said they did, same for Forge who are Halifax's backer. York did too but poorly - Carmine was more critical of the wage gap than the cap itself if you listen to the podcast. Cavalry definitely did.

    Edmonton, hard to tell but clubs didn't run their teams the same way

    Pacific? They went to the Island Games with 17 players and 2 USports Draftee...that makes it unlikely that they spent against the full cap.

    ~$562,300 has a bigger impact when you conveniently leave out context (2020 season after a 25% cut - in the middle of COVID)

    That's no justification to not push the league to pay better wages and talk with the union. I highlighted the issue of free agency and condensed scheduling. Context matters though
     
  11. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Holy crap, dude. I get that this is your league and you are the fanniest of the fanboys, but this has been confirmed by multiple people beyond Rollins... Other reporters, agents, and now a former coach. The lack of MSM coverage is more a function of CPL and soccer in general just not getting MSM coverage.. Particularly during the off season when the league itself is largely silent..

    As for the lack of league response in the reporting... That seems to largely be by choice.. the PFA is out there doing a full press on their PR, while the league is silent. It’s also not from lack of trying, either. Rollins attempted and it vanished into the ether.. Heck, it sounds like the union has tried and despite claims from the league that they’d be contacting the union after the Island Games, that contact apparently hasn’t happened yet...
     
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  12. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3862 Robert Borden, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
    You have no clue what you're talking about.

    The 25% cut WAS covered by all MSM back in April 2020
    https://www.cbc.ca/sports/soccer/cpl/canadian-premier-league-paycuts-1.5531509

    Even Montreal newspapers reported on the cuts but didn't provide a breakdown of player's pay. However, the 25% cut is when player's started to get angry and vocal as written in the article.
    https://www.journaldemontreal.com/2020/06/28/le-parcours-du-combattant

    The low wages table that Rollins is using was first announced by PFA Canada back in August 2020 - however he's breaking it down further without specifying that he's talking about 2020 specifically. The union tweet makes it OBVIOUS that these figures are attached to both cuts and 2020 specifically

    The Province talked about wages too although their figure differs since they were base on the 2019 season
    https://www.google.com/amp/s/thepro...wcm/78c2c7e0-a042-4191-ba85-f588bb93ec78/amp/
    The Province has way more credibility and still considered those wages low as of 2019. The 750K is in line with what The Province was reporting not 500k.

    Duane however is taking old news without specifying that he's talking about 2020 specifically not 2019 inclusively - downplaying the pandemic. I agree - anyone would be a fool to defend low wages but there is a pandemic and no revenues, no government bailout coming. I don't like the lower wages but we're in the middle of an pandemic where businesses closed their doors and people lost their jobs. Rollins a journalist? Please...

    The union isn't helping itself with the $500k figure being implied to be for 2019 as well and tweeting unverified claims that Clanachan is making millions when there's virtually no way for them to verify that.I understand very well union tactics but they aren't always productive and doesn't bring you closer to the employer's table. The league not talking to the union has been fairly criticized across the board including myself and widely reported in MSM. However, there's a due process in place for certification in Canada and they are going through it right now. The league deciding not to make it easier on them by recognizing them outright is unfortunate and disappointing but within their rights.

    I get why you're enjoying this although people's livelihood is no amusing matter. I may like the league but I can also tell when an article is being written poorly leaving out very important information on purpose. Yes the wages are low but this is year 1 leading to year 2 with no revenues (possibly in the 3rd year) in the middle of a pandemic.

    What's USL's excuse for all those years of low wages and horror stories (detailed in the Atlantic) when there was no pandemic and they had revenues? Nah...don't answer that:whistling:
     
  13. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    ^ The wages are low whether the cap is $500 k or $750 k. This is not a nuance issue.

    Wages need to grow if the league is going to grow. At a minimum they need to be where an average player can afford to just be a soccer player. If the league really wants to take off, wages need to grow to the point where they can compete with what young Canadians are being paid in MLS. No way do prospects like Nelson or Hasal give up $80 000 in MLS to make $30 000 in the CPL.

    What the USL does is irrelevant unless you want the USL to be the benchmark of comparison.
     
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  14. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3864 Robert Borden, Feb 19, 2021
    Last edited: Feb 19, 2021
    I think CPL is more focused on finding raw gems / the next Davies, David, Kaye etc...out there than outbiding MLS teams over their prospects within their own academy systems.

    It's just a different way to do business in "1.0" era. Academies outside of MLS network have deals with the closest CPL teams and there's so many guys out there that CPL seems focus to go through all of them first and have a much better grasp of who's out there and how good they are to then build up their squads leading to reselling those who develops well.

    Wages are too low of course but are also tied to revenues and the pandemic has not help. No one truly knew what the quality would be in season 1 - players have played way above what they are being paid and the outrage is justified. That 25% cut on what they earned in Season 1 hurts even more. We're fortunate to have a league of this quality this early on -they must get paid accordingly.

    Also, that disparity between top and bottom guys is unacceptable. The league needs a livable floor because without it, a higher cap won't make that big of a difference. York is the kind of club that would keep underpaying domestics while paying big money for imports. Not all clubs operates like Halifax or Forge - that's why I all for a union.

    You're right, USL shouldn't be the benchmark at all knowing that they weren't even covering health expanse. Hope that changed.
     
  15. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    According to this, CPL is already working to secure the right to have stadiums filled with at least 20% capacity

    Also Atletico Ottawa is determined to find the next Jonathan David. They intend to have most of the academies in the National Capital Region feed the club with their best talent.

    Powered by Atletico program https://atleticoottawa.canpl.ca/powered-by-atletico-ottawa/
     
  16. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    20% capacity versus 2019 average attendance:

    Pacific 20% capacity is 1240 vs. 3102 average attendance in 2019
    Edmonton 1020 vs. 2905
    Calgary 1058 vs. 3291
    Valour 2000 (or 6647 for full stadium) vs. 5368
    Forge 2000 (or 4644 for full stadium) vs. 6588
    York 1600 vs. 2723
    Ottawa 4800 vs. 4555 (Fury)
    Halifax 1240 vs. 6061

    Valour, Forge, and Ottawa could get close to or above their actual attendances by using the full stadium capacity. Forge's typical average attendance was more like 5700 if you discount the one huge crowd for the CPL's first ever game.

    York and the western teams would still get a third to a half of their actual attendance. Not good but better than 20%.

    The team that would really get curtailed with this would be Halifax because they were selling out their stadium. They truly would be cut down to 20%.
     
  17. Kingston

    Kingston Member+

    Oct 6, 2005
    ^ Very interesting.

    I had not considered the possibility of a D2 operating instead of teams joining the CPL (D1). I mean that places which have been linked to CPL expansion such as Saskatoon or Kitchener-Waterloo might slot into D2 rather than trying for D1.

    It would solve the problem of where all the extra markets are going to come from to run both a full D1 and D2 (although at the expense of short term D1 expansion). And it could give some markets the opportunity to try the CPL-with-training-wheels to see if pro soccer is really for them.

    So we could end up with a nine (Quebec) or ten (?) team CPL and a ten or twelve team D2 (pick your cities).

    If the reason for D2 is to offer spots to teams that don't feel ready for D1, I assume pro/rel would be put on hold.

    If the D2 league does launch, I hope they'd allow entry for the MLS 2 squads. It would help with player development and would give the D2 league three solid teams to help build from.
     
  18. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    #3869 Robert Borden, Mar 8, 2021 at 3:28 PM
    Last edited: Mar 8, 2021 at 3:51 PM
    Updates on CPL Salaries

    Canadian Premier League offers first look at its bottom line
    https://ca.news.yahoo.com/canadian-premier-league-offers-first-200032560.html
    • Player spending must fall between $650,000 and $850,000
    • coach/technical range is between $350,000 and $550,000
    • Combined, the two must fall under $1.2 million
    • The cap includes salaries, housing and travel allowances and individual player bonuses but not "league or club accomplishment bonuses."
    • the salary cap accounts for some 57 per cent of team revenue — and could reach some 70 per cent factoring in bonuses
    • it takes more $4 million a year to run a CPL team
    • the salary cap is the same as it was last year, because of the shortened season in 2020. The plan is to raise it in 2022
    • average player pay in 2021 is around $40,000, which may include housing, car allowances and incentive bonuses
    • top end of the salary scale is $77,000
    • There will be a minimum player salary of $22,000 in 2021, which including other compensation is expected to reach $26,000
    • The minimum does not cover those on U-Sports contracts - those deals would be in the range of $10,000 to $12,000
    • These figures don't include $45k of individual bonuses available to be earned each years
    • These figures don't include up to $178k (depending on progress) in bonuses given out by the league to the #CanPL representative in Concacaf
    Clanachan says the goal is to become one of the top three leagues in CONCACAF, which covers North and Central America and the Caribbean.



     
  19. Yoshou

    Yoshou Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 12, 2009
    Seattle
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It's amazing what a little bit of public shaming will do.. The good news is that, unlike MLS, the CPL seems to be responsive to public shaming.. MLS just extends a middle finger and says "Yeah? What of it??"

    Although, kinda not a fan of staff salaries being included in the salary cap. I'd much rather see it kept as a separate line item and/or not at all.
     
  20. Robert Borden

    Robert Borden Member+

    Chelsea
    Canada
    Apr 19, 2017
    Toronto, Ontario
    Nat'l Team:
    Canada
    Looks like the minimum salary is effective immediately
     

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