sorry, but you can´t see Luxemburgo running with open arms PASSING through him and mocking him. When the image starts in your video, Luxemburgo is already in front of him running in the other direction with open arms. That open arm gesture can very well mean "what the hell are you going on about?" I think you are nuts, starting with the fact I never said that mocking an opponent after a game is good sportmanship. What I said is that NO MATTER how bad was Luxemburgo´s sportmanship, still is LAUGHABLE to give such stronger punishments to 3 Grêmio members involved than to the Huachipato members involved. Its LAUGHABLE that you defend a stronger punishment to bad sportsmanship (which can ONLY BE SUPPOSED) than to physical violence (which is CLEARLY proved on video). Therefore, you are the nutty person. really, totally laughable.
you have condoned that physical violence should be not be punished as much as theoretical mocking. 1 - its obvious that I am a Grêmio fan. My avatar is a Grêmio flag. 2 - I never made an ASSERTION that Luxemburgo attitude in these incidents was flawless or that he did have any guilt. I say the images for that are not conclusive. AND MAINLY, I said, CLEARLY, that even IF he DID provoke, it is still laughable to punish bad sportsmanship strongly than physical violence. 3 - I am biased towards Grêmio. You are biased towards defending Chilean attitude. again, this is a totally LAUGHABLE concept, that doesnt hold even in CHILEAN laws. what happens in Chile if you shoot someone because that person told you to screw yourself? That person goes to jail and you pay a fine? you are clearly falling on a latin american stereotype of over reaction and discontrol, where physical violence is justified against words.
what facts? Luxemburgo not handshaking at the end of the match at Grêmio Arena was the only fact I posted (reported by the media). The other two were not facts, but the versions of each coach there is no video depicting the ENTIRE confrontation or talk or anything. Much less what was said. We have an accusation of mockery against Luxemburgo against video facts of Huachipato staff starting to run after Luxemburgo wanting to beat him and being held out. And then Huachipato players reaching at Luxemburgo and trying to kick him... even more than it already is? the fact words can cause strong reactions do not justify at any means physical violence. Again, just use examples of football or common justice in any civilized country. in football: we all know players tease the others, try to disrupt their minds. Such things are not punished. If the other player reacts with a punch in the face, however, it is a red card in normal life: already gave the example above. Try breaking a bottle on the head of someone who mocked you. Let´s see who will give the heavier sentence by a judge in your country.
Francly, I don`t know. As I said before, what I did here in this thread was to try to put objectiveness in the reasons why Luxemburgo got banned, as how the OP was treating the whole matter in a complete biased way of looking at things, showing doubtful evidence and inventing stuff of his own, over what really happened in Talcahuano. The whole chapter, without taking any sides (as both made mistakes), was a disgrace for anyone fond to football/futebol/futbol/soccer, as to me, this sport should always be treated as a pretty beautiful game and nothing more important than that. If people want to fight over it, they should switch to MMA, Boxing or maybe even Ice-hockey, where as it seems these kind of things are normal and accepted, but not here, in Football.
I am trying to explain to you a reason why Lux got the worst part of it, maybe that's the reason why Conmebol acted like they did and its not like the others got off free is it? and about their corruptness, once your corrupt surely there is no limit on how far you can go
For your knowledge (only for those really interested in trying to learn something out of this) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Verbal_abuse http://www.wisegeek.org/what-is-verbal-abuse.htm http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/footballgovernance/01/66/54/32/fifacodeofconduct.pdf Getting back in topic, Conmebol's disciplinary comitee, rarely uses video images as sole proof or evidence when any issue arises. Most of the times, what is first taken in account, are reports done by officials present at the moment whenever something happens, and these are usually the matches referee's, the fourth referee and the official viewer, of any match sanctioned by Conmebol. http://www.fpf.com.pe/doc/Regla_Disciplinario_2012.pdf
well I don't think there is a limit so if the opportunity presented itself they would probably take it
I'll answer this one with a question : What happens if a Gremio fan, sits in the middle of Internacional's torcida, and starts singing anti-Inter songs, dressed with the colors of Gremio ? If (very big "if"), he makes it alive from there, whom do you think the Brazilian judge is going to prosecute afterwards ? (if he doesn`t decide to put him in a wacko asylum first) As Condor11 told you, words can have a strong reaction, depending on time, and I'll add, place.
if people beat him, and is proved he did not try to beat them back, if caught on tape, the fans that beat him will be prosecuted for the physical violence. however, the Gremio fan will not be prosecuted for his words, but for invasion of a space he could not go, thus, promoting public disorder. Luxemburgo did not invade a place he could not go. Your example would be more akin to a Grêmio fan, on HIS side of the fence, provoking Inter fans after a defeat, and Inter fans jumping the fence to beat him. This case is much more similar to the one of GrexHua, and no, the Grêmio fans would NOT be prosecuted for provoking Inter fans after an Inter defeat. But the Inter fans that invaded Grêmio area to beat Grêmio fans would. AND THE INTER stadium would probably be banned for one match at least. that is a fact, which however is not accepted as a justification in any civilized society. Again, if you offend your neighbor, words can cause a strong reaction. That DOES NOT JUSTIFIES him shooting you. Furthermore, this is the kind of case that americans are much more prepared to discuss than Latin Americans, because they preserve the right of the first amendment more than anyone elsewhere in the world. The right of opinion, of speech. To offend someone, and if that person wants, she can offend you back, but not resort to violence. You know why? Because you say words can cause a strong reaction. WHAT WORDS? People can react differently to different words. If you JUSTIFY acting violently to words, soon, nobody can say anything, because anyone can get offended at ANYTHING. And Latin Americans are specially good at feeling offended at anything, even when that thing is true. If you start justifying violence because of words, you will see where that will stop. Latin America will dig an even bigger hole for itself.
read your own links " Verbally abusive behavior goes far beyond mean behavior" being a bad winner and a jerk and mocking someone at defeat (and again, this is NOT proved Luxemburgo did it) can NEVER configure as verbal abuse. as for the FIFA code of conduct, that is just guidelines. It also asks for fairplay (which is basically inexistant in the Libertadores, where players love to gain time by faking injuries at the last minutes, among many other things). And even more, in no way FIFA Code of Conduct establishes penalties nor in any way would FIFA give a stronger punishment to Luxemburgo and other Grêmio staff than to Huachipato.
Al least complete reading the whole parragraph, otherwise you will not learn anything from it. here it is : Verbal abuse is a form of battery that involves the use of words, rather than blows and punches. In a verbally abusive situation, words are used to attack, control, and inflict harm on another person. Verbally abusive behavior goes far beyond mean behavior; it involves inflicting psychological violence on another person, attacking the very nature of an individual's being and attempting to destroy his or her spirit. Verbal abuse can affect people of all ages and in all types of relationships. However, it is especially prevalent in marital relationships. (from the same link) : Often, verbally abusive comments are offered as jokes. When the target of the joke is hurt or insulted, the verbal abuser laughs it off and says that the victim is overly sensitive. However, the intent of the verbal abuser is to cause this hurt. After a time, verbal abuse often escalates into physical abuse. Who is laughing afterwards and making a grin as if the other part is mad and over reacting at the CAP stadium incident ?. (read what is in red, as it is very important) Sure, it is a guideline, not a disciplinary document. Anyhow, I posted it in order to show, that Luxemburgo in his attitude, precisely inflicted a very big breach upon this guidelines of expected conduct, set by FIFA. In other words, he did something bad, and due to it, a disciplinary measure had to be taken against him, which in the case of Conmebol, they clearly did so. Ok those were the guidelines, now lets see what FIFA establishes in its disciplinary code, in which case, it is about banning or suspenssions from matches or payments as fine : http://www.fifa.com/mm/document/affederation/administration/50/02/75/discoinhalte.pdf in chapter II (special part), section 2, related to disorderlines at matches and competitions, in its point 50, related to Brawl (which happened as a result of his provocation)(which is the figure for Luxemburgo), it clearly states that at least a 6 game suspension, should be sanctioned, regardless of also existing some sort of payments as fines. For Conmebol, it is cristal clear that whom started this whole episode was Luxemburgo and his staff and not their Huachipato counterparts (probably based on the reports of the referee's and the Conmebol official viewer of the game), reasons why they got the worst part from it.
This quote deserves a completely diferent post as it is, sorry to say, ridiculous. First of all, everybody in North, Central and South America, are in fact Americans ( I don`t buy the shit that the ones from the North of "el Río grande" say about it). Same as the Hispano...., Anglo..., Dutch...., Latino........, or (whatever you want)....-americans, are all americans as well. (in fact, if you are Brazilian, you are latin american and an American, too) Now if your refering yourself to the american ones from the US of A, well I can accept it, in order to give you an answer on their behalf, but for the record they are equally as american as anybody else from this continent About their first amendment, what are you talking about ? Do you actually know what the first amendment is about. It is about the freedom of speech related to religion or to exercise the one you prefer, without involvement of the govenment in your opinion and decissions. Anyhow, not wanting to offend them, I don`t give a damm about their first amendment, as I`m not from the USA, but from Chile, and whatever is in their Constitution, its only for them, and no one else. The right of freedom of opinion and speech, has nothing to do with any particular country, as it is under article 19 of the Universal Declaration of Human rights, under the United Nations General assembly from 1948. Btw, I'm sick and tired reading your posts, where you say I justify violence, as you are completely wrong about it. I`ve never said anything like it, here or anywhere. Your problem here, is that you are mixing issues, as the punishment that Luxemburgo or the one that the Huachipato people received, wasn`t an issue where they put in a balance or scale one offense together with the other. Each part got their punishment according to their own faults, and each one was treated separatedly.
This is the Conmebol that didn't do a damn thing about racist slurs being hurled at a player, yes they are illogical and corrupt.
Of course Conmebol is going to fine Gremio, they have money while Huachipato doesn't. Conmebol wants cash cows to milk from. I wonder why the CBF puts up with it.
because you need to belong to a confederation in order to participate in the world cup and to be affiliated to Fifa? or possibly they are just as corrupt as Conmebol and Fifa?
That's obvious they need a confederation to be aligned with. You only read part of my post and didn't comment on Conmebol going after lucrative teams in order to get paid. Conmebol is very similar to nepotism. Look up the history of Libertadores and Copa America and see why certain nations didn't participate. CBF of course its corrupt just like any other federation but you don't persecute a federation that is bigger and more lucrative. Look and see why top Mexican teams wont compete in the LC. They send 2nd rate teams now. When Brazilian teams reached the finals 2 years in a row ....they changed it. Now you have 6 Brazilian teams in the knockout stages ,so Conmebol now wants to reduce it..hmmm I wonder why.
both? thats why brazilian clubs should create their own league. Right now, its the cart pulling the oxen.
CONMEBOL (and CBF) take advantage the brazilian clubs can´t unite for a common cause if their lives depended on it. Otherwise, if this new Conmebol measured was approved, all brazilian clubs should drop from the competition in protest. I would like to see the Libertadores without the brazilian market.
create their own league? like a Brazilian premier league? (and get rid of state championships?) or like their own confederation?
What the Brazilians should do is stop being weak and challenge Conmebol. The Brazilian clubs need to separate from the CBF and useless state federations and man up to make their own league without CBF control. When that happens then the league can confront Conmebol. Conmebol is an old concept and is insulting to south American leagues. The top clubs should unite and create their own south American champions league.
a Brazilian Premier League would be amazing I would watch it (your current system is very confusing for outsiders to understand) furthermore I dont think any other league has as many "traditional clubs" as you guys have Flamengo Fluminense Vasco da Gama Botafogo Palmeiras Sao Paulo Santos Corinthians Gremio Cruzeiro Internacional Atletico Mineiro would certainly make for good television
They tried well almost tried with clube dos 13 to create an elite league and CBF and globo TV kept it from happening. Now with emerging clubs its the perfect time to do it. The current competitions are watered down and amateurish. If Brazilian club owners could critically think they can create an elite league with a 20 million dollar premium and that would just be a minimum not counting other potential investors that can put more. Andres Sanchez proposed it but the other clubs were scared off by Marin. The same concept can be done with all top S.American clubs a top 30-40 club union that can raise the premium to $3∅million as a grand prize for libertadores. Sort of like a Premier Libertadores League. Think of it... The CBF like Conmebol subjugate teams like a dictator of a plantain republic. CBF is bigger than Conmebol but its just as corrupt.