Blame Hudson

Discussion in 'D.C. United' started by ursula, Aug 26, 2002.

  1. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Not the players.

    Ray had all this information in front of him but failed to use it:

    -he knew that we had trouble scoring yet when Moreno pulled up lame he inserted a second d-mid in his place. That second d-mid (ITT, then Lazo) did their job (being a d-mid) but we needed someone to support Q2 at forward. Olsen didn't do that cause he's got a midfielders mentality. When ITT went down, Ray could have corrected the situation by inserting Lassiter or Curtis, players that he signed. Sure those two forwards suck but so did Moreno last week and even with a very off-form Jaime we created several great opportunities. Just by their forward presence Roy or Ali paired with Q2 would have been a distraction for the metros defense. But he didn't play with two forwards- really he played a 361 using three d-mids- and what we saw was a continuation of the scoreless streak where we see midfielders trying to dribble through a set defense unsuccessfully. It hadn't worked all year and-guess what? it didn't work again!!!!!

    -he knew that we needed two real wingers who could pass the ball to spread the metros defense but he moved Olsen out of position. This created the situation that we've seen in all of our games this year until the Quakes game where our offense lists to the left and Convey. Invariably the opposing defense adjusts to shut down Convey, leaving acres of space on our right that we don't take advantage of because we have no one out there who can. In the metros game we repeatedly saw Williams (the first half) and Lazo (second half) run into that space but, again, Ray was asking d-mids to play out of character and we've seen all season that this doesn't work. Ray was too cute having Olsen play "forward". It backfired. What a suprise.

    Credit Hudson for having the players give their all yesterday. They really tried. they knew the importance of needing to score and win. Towards the end of the game we had Reyes going forward, we had Pope going forward, we had Prideaux going forward and thus our defense finally got exposed for their score. We played right into their hands. Blame Hudson for having the tactical awareness of a hedgehog.

    Rongen would have done better.
  2. Stuart

    Stuart New Member

    Oct 13, 2001
    Yep, blame Hudson. He inherited a world-class team and didn't bring in Rivaldo, Owen, Beckham or Raul, despite knowing that we needed to stregthen and having unlimited resources.
  3. BudWiser

    BudWiser New Member

    Jul 17, 2000
    Falls Church, VA
    Amen to that!! If we have trouble scoring, why do we play w/one forward?? Has it worked before-NO. And don't start telling me Olsen is a forward. Olsen is great at tracking back on d and getting by guys on the wing, being unpredictable w/his moves, stuff like that-winger stuff. Play the guy where he's got the experience and the proven ability. He adds to the defense with his hustle.

    DC United playing w/one forward is like trying to get a cripple to walk better by cutting off one of his legs. It just makes no sense whatsoever. Never did. Tampa Bay last year played w/one forward-Diallo-and that was because he could score by himself-but you know what they STILL sucked big-time with that one forward lineup

    Maybe it works in Serie A or some league overseas!! Who knows. Even if it marginally works, in a league where the object is to entertain, you're doing the league a disservice by going with it

    3-6-1?? Reminds me of the Sampson era at the 1998 World Cup, and we all know how that went!!

    Towards the end of the game we had Reyes going forward, we had Pope going forward, we had Prideaux going forward and thus our defense finally got exposed for their score.

    True. We've got our defenders trying to score because we don't have what we need on offense. Credit to the d they make me proud

    Rongen would have done better.

    On offense, no doubt. Ray needs to become a better tactician on offense. In a way though that doesn't make sense that he's horrible on offense because the Fusion last year were a great goal-scoring team (if my memory is correct)! But this year, with that one forward lineup, drives me crazy. It was like we were playing for the tie. WHY PLAY FOR THE TIE?? We needed to WIN the match!!

    Remember the game against San Jose. We pressed forward to score and played much better as a result.

    Most of the players on offense need to go-I don't think it's all the coach's fault but no doubt he deserves some of the blame for our terrible offense.

    Obviously, the team has to improve on offense next year or coach will be out of a job.
  4. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Okay, smart guy. I'll type slower for you.

    We have the personnel now, barely to beat the metros. However we have to think about how to attack them to be successful. In other words we have to plan a bit before the game. The tactical genius Hudson didn't do that.

    How to attack the metros? Pretty easy as seen by all the success other teams in the league have in doing it. Afterall the metros give up lots of goals and lots of late goals.

    look at their last game, the Dallas game, for inspiration. Dallas attacked them by using their forwards- two of them!- Kreis and Cerritos- to exert constant pressure on the metros central defenders, Jolley and Petke. Those two defenders for some reason don't react well to pressure causing the other two defenders, Chronopolis and Ziadie, to constantly be helping out. Eventually fatigue sets in and the metros lose a 1-0 lead late as the marking ability of the metros defenders broke down once again.

    This same strategy has been used against the metros for about 10 games now and they normally give up at least 2 goals a game. But Hudson chooses to start just Q2 up top thus not putting much pressure at all on Petke and Jolley who can then relax and cut off any run of the play threat. really Hudson's strategy comes very close to Sampson's 361 in the end.

    No smart ass, we don't need new Personnel to beat the metros. We don't need Rivaldo. We just need a coach who has the balls to risk attacking the opposition and let us win a game 2-1 (or 4-2 like we did in the first metros game). Our defense would give up a goal or two but our defense is better than theirs and we'd out score them in the end and that's what counts.
  5. eldiablito

    eldiablito New Member

    Jun 8, 2000
    in Sagy's shadow
    I too was pissed when I saw we were playing with a lone striker. However, at the 91st minute I realized that taking a point on the road with this line-up would not be a terrible thing. We needed 7 points from 3 games and at that point, 2 later games looked like more promising possibilites than having Lassiter as your spearhead. You know, maybe a healthy Moreno and Quintanilla can pair up, etc.

    As nice as it was to see our defense push up for a goal late in the game, that's exactly why we lost. Convey could not hold possession and we were left exposed in the back for their counter in the 92nd minute. I guess you could blame Ray for being too cute with that formation, but I would blame the players for not holding on to that one point when we were in a clear position to do that.
  6. Hezbolt

    Hezbolt New Member

    Jun 4, 2001
    La Norte
    2 more with the scum, and Ray has only beaten them once (this year 4-2). Last year with the fusion he could not do it, why do we think he could now??
  7. Stuart

    Stuart New Member

    Oct 13, 2001
    I'm the smart ass? But, surely you're the one that makes it sound so easy? You tell us that it is not the players, but the coach. You point out who we need to acquire, but seem to have no opinions about who or HOW we might acquire them. I simply pointed out for you consideration that Hudson took over these players, who could hardly be called world-beaters. He has to work within a straightjacket cap and compete for a very small pool of quality of players. And, that is even before we discuss the key injuries to a small squad.

    Perhaps such judgement needs to be reserved until he's had a while to build his own team?

    (Unless this is your attempt to garner support for an attempt to take over his job)
  8. John_Harkes_6

    John_Harkes_6 New Member

    Mar 29, 2000
    Baltimore, MD.
    Build his own team - lets talk of the numerous wonderful acquisitions of senor Hudson:

    Lazo Alavanja - yep he certainly saved us this year - wonderful choice in the Supp draft there

    Villegas and Perez - one traded, one on the bench

    Zambrano - we don't have any great fwds - so lets just acquire a bunch of mediocre forwards, that sounds like a good plan.

    His draft picks - we won't even go there.

    Reyes is the only player he has brough in worth a damn and DC was trying to get him well before Hudson even took the reins.

    Sorry - Hudson had a great opportunity to rebuild this team via the dispersal draft and MLS draft and hasn't/
  9. Sundevil9

    Sundevil9 Member

    Nov 23, 1999
    Reston, VA
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I agree that the move for Lazy was a bomb. But in all fairness to Ray, United has been limited in roster moves by the salary.

    During the dispersal draft(s) the team had not recieved any cap relief for Ammann. That's about $100k that they did not have to take somebody worth while.

    Having Olsen out for the first half of the season helped lead to the Villegas and Perez deal. Villegas was to be a fill in until Olsen got back. Once again, the team was financially handcuffed and could only get a midfielder in the low salary range in exchange for Lisi and Zadie.

    Zambrano and Roy were cheap desperation deals. They were not brought in as 'the future of DC United' if they turn things around great, we'll talk about next year, but otherwise, there's the door fellas.

    Quintanilla was a good acquisition.

    Overall, I'd say that all of the midseason trades are a wash.

    Of the preseason trades, I like the Priedeaux for Armstrong trade, I dislike the Kamler for Williams trade, and I hated the Talley for some extra shoelaces trade.

    Hudson can (hopefully) build a team in the offseason, when he can sever some heads and shake up the roster.
  10. Lanky134

    Lanky134 New Member

    Oct 25, 1999
    134, 3, 6
    You're also forgetting about Rimando, JH6.

  11. Serie Zed

    Serie Zed Member

    Jul 14, 2000
    Regardless of what you think about Hudson's tactics on Sunday, it's pretty interesting that the fans were calling for Rongen's head in 1999, a championship year, yet have given Hudson a free pass in this season that's easily as bad as the last two.
  12. bofahey

    bofahey Member

    Sep 1, 2001
    Washington, DC
    You make some good points, but I don't know that playing two forwards would have made a difference yesterday if that second forward happens to be Roy Lassiter or Ali Curtis. I'd frankly rather have Lazo on the field than either of those two.

    Moreno's finishing may be off-form, but he still causes the defense to focus on him and he is able to create opportunities. Neither Lassiter or Curtis can do that. That is why Q2 did so well against San Jose... they defense was focused on Moreno. When Moreno got hurt this week, our chances of winning yesterday became low regardless of who we put on the field.

    With our current roster, there is no point in playing two forwards as long as Moreno and Q1 are unhealthy. And keep in mind, we were one great save by Tim Howard away from winning yesterday. And as far as putting Lassiter in from the beginning, were you not watching when Pope layed the ball down for him right in front of the net and flat-footed Roy was, as always, one step too slow. I don't see what playing Lassiter from the very beginning would have done except get the Mutts some more off-sides calls in the first half.
  13. eldiablito

    eldiablito New Member

    Jun 8, 2000
    in Sagy's shadow
    I take exception to this. I can agree that the results are similar (bottom dwellers). However, I don't see the half-assed efforts from 2000 and 2001. I still see players putting forward 100% every week despite the playoff picture looking bleak at best. At this point in 2000 and 2001, the team would have already rolled over and died. I won't call for Hudson's head unless the team phones it in against SJ this Saturday.
  14. Barbara

    Barbara BigSoccer Supporter

    Apr 29, 2000
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States


    No one seriously starting calling for Rongen's head until mid-2000 when it was clear that last year's championship team was now this year's pile of crap.

    Although, even in 1999 the deterioration was beginning.

    If Hudson's getting a free pass this year it's because he was handed a pile of crap and asked to turn it into a championship team.

    While apparently boneheaded moves like subbing Lassiter for Q2 make me want to hit him in the head and beg him to get off the crack, I don't entirely fault him for the hiring decisions made in the last year. I think that the blame needs to be spread around the front office and, to a certain extent, the league (for having rules preventing us from getting cap relief for high-ticket injured players.)

    Now, if I find out that bringing Roy Lassiter was entirely Hudson's doing, I'll hire a plane myself because that was probably the stupidest thing we've done all year.

    This team broke my heart yesterday. Despite the bitter experience of the last two and a half years, I actually dared to hope that we could pull it off and wind up in the playoffs. I'm an idiot.
  15. Topo

    Topo Member

    Feb 15, 2001
    Hudson brought in Rimando, Reyes, and a bunch of people we would have been better without.

    Quintanilla must be the slowest guy in the league. Everytime somebody plays a ball into space, a defender starts three steps behind him and passes him by two steps to get to the ball first. He looks like the second coming of the second coming of Diaz Arce to me.

    Reyes was a deal that was in the works before he got here.

    Focus on who he's lost. That's what sometimes huts. Kante (What the hell is up with that?). Armstrong. Perez (after trading for him). Conteh.

    That's the single most pathetic thing. I feel like I am missing Conteh. How sad is that?
  16. BroonAleMagpie

    BroonAleMagpie New Member

    Apr 14, 2000
    Fairfax, VA

    I really don't get this post. Calling for Rongen's head in 1999? Who? Someone in a bar somewhere in Oxon Hill or Occoquan?

    I recall people calling for Rongen's head in 2000 and in 2001, because he was incapable of putting together even a medicore team with most of the components of a group that had just won the championship.

    And even in 2001 there were plenty of people who were bitterly and angrily defending him because "he's not had enough time" or "it's the players' fault, not the coach."

    Contrast that with a coach who has come in with no salary room, sirgnificant roster restrictions, a league that is more evenly matched than ever before, and who, out of one of the worst defenses in the league has built the best. Last year we let in 50 goals--FIFTY! This year we've let in 30, the lowest in the league other than the league champions.

    I'm all for calling for accounts, but let's give the coach and management some credit for what has been accomplished this year and see what they can come up with next, now that this season is pretty much done. If we don't have some decent firepower going into 2003, then its time to start burning witches. And I'll bring the scales and the duck.
  17. morenolsen

    morenolsen New Member

    Jan 28, 2002
    When we let Armstrong go Etcheverry didn't have his green card. Just think if we still had Armstrong, we would have never been able to acquire Zambrano. ;)
  18. Sachin

    Sachin New Member

    Jan 14, 2000
    La Norte
    DC United
    If we had Armstrong, we wouldn't have Prideaux. That was a good trade that worked out well for both teams.

  19. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    DC United
    Hudson's a shyster of a coach who spews out more half-truth, innuendo and lies than Jeff Skilling does. He's the Kevin Keegan of MLS except he wasn't anywhere as near a good a player. He doesn't get all the blame though. I blame Kasper almost as much as the silver-tongued devil for his role in player evaluation and the trades. I think Ray's quotes and enthusiasm have officially worn out. He needs to start coaching this team and looking for points in every game. IMO he's coaching not to lose, although he keeps saying how important these games are and that the team needs to take the full 3 points. Lastly his road tactics, if you want to call them that, show that he has given up on the idea of making the playoffs and that this team is good enough. I'll give him the off-season to try and fix things but I would be ready to give him the boot if we could get Sarachan.
  20. Atouk

    Atouk BigSoccer Supporter

    DC United
    Apr 16, 2001
    Arlington, VA
    Queens Park Rangers FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And we wouldn't have Nelsen, because we'd have needed to dump an SI and I expect Hudson wasn't empowered to (or just wouldn't want to) dump Etcheverry or Moreno in his first days on the job. And although Nellie has played very well this year, I doubt he had much trade value back in the winter, so it's not like we'd have gotten much in return.

    So, our pretty darned good defense would be without two of its starters. Yes, we should all blame Ray for losing Armstrong. :rolleyes:
  21. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia

    It's not his personnel moves per se that is Hudson's undoing. As said above trading Armstrong was a necessary evil but we got real value for it.

    But I think bringing up ATC points to something.
    about Hudson. To put if bluntly, he knows soccer, he knows motivation, but he's not much of a tactician. First look at Miami last year- a big success for him. he was able to trade and aquire veteran players who knew their job, didn't need to be told what to do, and used his inspiring speeches to be the best team in the regular season. In other words he created players who together created mismatches with al the other teams in the league. Everyone else was having to adjust to him. Eventually Yallop and San Jose did just that and Hudson had no answer other than to get bellicose.

    Now look at United last winter- lots of young players who really hadn't been tested along with some vets who may or may not have the skills that many Miami players had.

    One vet who didn't have, say, Serna's or APC's skills was ATC. Conteh also had this big joyous personality, this big heart, that encompassed more than just his job as a soccer player. As such Hudson, more focused on just the game than Conteh is, clashed with him and eventually cut him. In retrospect this was quite a poor decision on Ray's part as ATC would probably have made a quite good combo with Q2 yesterday as forwards and even if you disagree with that, ATC, for all his modest gifts, is a way better player than Lassiter or Curtis. He probably would have had several goals this year if he had been given Lassiter's playing time.

    But he was cut because Hudson didn't see his value to the team, because ATC didn't martch to Hudson's type of motivation.

    Conteh is just one player but his case fits in with Hudson's alleged poor ability to work with young players that Cweedchop here especially keeps talking about. Hudson inherited a bunch of raw talent and he has net been able to fit them into a tactically sound system. This is especially glaring on the offensive end because there motivational techniques don't go as far as they do for more modestly talented defenders. United went through half the year in a "free-flowing" system that completely bamboozled the younger players.

    He went through players faster than Brian Billick goes through quarterbacks. He never gave either Ziadie or Lisi or Namoff a chance because he kept demanding of them something that they didn't understand. Thomas Rongen got more out of all those guys than Hudson did. Trading for Villegas, aquiring Lassiter were just pointless exercises becauwse Hudson was asking for skills and abilities from them that they didn't have and it was obvious before we got them they didn't have.

    He never took the players he has and thought, "How can I best use these guys?" So we come to a crucial game with the metros and he has to make an adjustment because Moreno is sitting out. He never looks at the metros considerable, glaring, weaknesses. Instead he does his kneejerk play-the-vets thing and pairs ABMOD and ITT and stupidly leaves Q2 up front alone. He tries to finese this situation by saying to Olsen, "Play as a forward." Olsen, of course, hasn't done that in his professional life (except for a few minutes when he just came back from injury a few weeks ago) and so of course Benny doesn't compliment Q2 adequately. Olsen just sort of plays like a winger in the center of the field thereby hardly putting any pressure on a very slow and unsteady Chronopolis. So of course we are again impotent and winless. THAT's where Ray falls short- he's the tactical equilivent of a D3 coach in MLS.
  22. owendylan

    owendylan Member

    May 30, 2001
    DC United
    I wouldn't give him that much credit.
  23. ursula

    ursula Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Republic of Cascadia
    Well I'm a nice guy.
  24. liverbird

    liverbird BigSoccer Supporter

    Sep 29, 2000
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I do think Ray is tactically dim and better suited to the PR role of management than skills and tactical development. What I was struck by at the game yesterday is something I've seen, but never registered, before. Before the game, Ray likes to go out with his spikes on and have a go at kicking the ball around with the lads. Now, I've never seen Da Bruce, or Houllier, or Martin O'Neill, or (on the dark side of the Force) Sir Alex or Wenger out having a kick around before the match. It indicates a lack of concentration on the task you have at hand --- managing the side and noting the tactical advantages. Under Ray, we never seem to come back from the half with a new idea or some obvious tactical turn. Sometimes we appear to be fired up but mostly to mindlessly follow whatever we'd been doing before -- only faster.
  25. CHICO13

    CHICO13 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Oct 4, 2001
    SECTION 135
    The Strongest La Paz
    Nat'l Team:
    I guess I'm one of the few remaining Ray fans that still says one year with an inherited team is not enough to judge him by. Yes some roster moves were suspect to say the least, but I don't see anybody screaming bloody murder about Dave Kasper our GM. I guess we're all frustrated and we're looking for someone to take it out on. I just don't think it should be Ray.

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