Black. Box. Voting. In. America: your vote goes in, tyranny comes out.

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by Mel Brennan, Nov 19, 2004.

  1. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ...There was something odd about the poll tapes.

    A "poll tape" is the phrase used to describe a printout from an optical scan voting machine made the evening of an election, after the machine has read all the ballots and crunched the numbers on its internal computer. It shows the total results of the election in that location. The printout is signed by the polling officials present in that precinct/location, and then submitted to the county elections office as the official record of how the people in that particular precinct had voted. (Usually each location has only one single optical scanner/reader, and thus produces only one poll tape.)

    Bev Harris of www.blackboxvoting.org, the erstwhile investigator of electronic voting machines, along with people from Florida Fair Elections, showed up at Florida's Volusia County Elections Office on the afternoon of Tuesday, November 16, 2004, and asked to see, under a public records request, each of the poll tapes for the 100+ optical scanners in the precincts in that county. The elections workers - having been notified in advance of her request - handed her a set of printouts, oddly dated November 15 and lacking signatures.

    Bev pointed out that the printouts given her were not the original poll tapes and had no signatures, and thus were not what she'd requested. Obligingly, they told her that the originals were held in another location, the Elections Office's Warehouse, and that since it was the end of the day they should meet Bev the following morning to show them to her.

    Bev showed up bright and early the morning of Wednesday the 17th - well before the scheduled meeting - and discovered three of the elections officials in the Elections Warehouse standing over a table covered with what looked like poll tapes. When they saw Bev and her friends, Bev told me in a telephone interview less than an hour later, "They immediately shoved us out and slammed the door."

    In a way, that was a blessing, because it led to the stinking evidence.

    "On the porch was a garbage bag," Bev said, "and so I looked in it and, and lo and behold, there were public record tapes."

    Thrown away. Discarded. Waiting to be hauled off.

    "It was technically stinking, in fact," Bev added, "because what they had done was to have thrown some of their polling tapes, which are the official records of the election, into the garbage. These were the ones signed by the poll workers. These are something we had done an official public records request for."

    When the elections officials inside realized that the people outside were going through the trash, they called the police and one came out to challenge Bev.

    Kathleen Wynne, a www.blackboxvoting.org investigator, was there.

    "We caught the whole thing on videotape," she said. "I don't think you'll ever see anything like this - Bev Harris having a tug of war with an election worker over a bag of garbage, and he held onto it and she pulled on it, and it split right open, spilling out those poll tapes. They were throwing away our democracy, and Bev wasn't going to let them do it.

    As I was interviewing Bev just moments after the tussle, she had to get off the phone, because, "Two police cars just showed up."

    She told me later in the day, in an on-air interview, that when the police arrived, "We all had a vigorous debate on the merits of my public records request."

    The outcome of that debate was that they all went from the Elections Warehouse back to the Elections Office, to compare the original, November 2 dated and signed poll tapes with the November 15 printouts the Elections Office had submitted to the Secretary of State. A camera crew from www.votergate.tv met them there, as well.

    And then things got even odder..."


    ...
    ...
    ...

    (boom.)
     
  2. FlashMan

    FlashMan Member

    Jan 6, 2000
    'diego
    Club:
    --other--
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    anybody with at least a pea for a brain knows they stole the election. of course, if you're a know it all, you remain blissfully unaware.

    and the democrats, stupid little creeps that they always have been, let them.

    we live in a beautiful country.
     
  3. DutchOven

    DutchOven Red Card

    Nov 16, 2004
    WESTERSCHELDE TUNNEL, NETHERLANDS

    The Dutch Province Zeeuwsch-Vlaandren is cut off from the other parts of the Netherlands by the Westerschelde port entrance to Antwerpen. Projects for a permanent road connection have been made since the 1930s. The solution to this is the Westerschelde Tunnel: an undersea highway tunnel, 6.6km long, consisting of two tunnel tubes, each with two lanes (3.5m each), with 26 cross passages every 250m. The Westerschelde Tunnel will provide a faster and more economical route for around 27,000 vehicles a day between Ellewoutsdijk in Zuid-Beveland and the Zeeuws Vlaanderen region near Terneuzen. KMW (Kombinatie Middelplaat Westerschelde v.o.f consisting of Philipp Holzmann, Wayss & Freitag, Franki, BAM Infrabouw, Heijmans and Voormolen) have been awarded the contract for the design, construction and maintenance for the tunnel for the first ten years of operation, by NV Westerschelde Tunnel. It is costing €726 million and the project is expected to reach completion in early 2003.
    TUNNEL STRUCTURE

    The Westerschelde Tunnel consists of two lanes (3.5m width in each direction) including safety areas. The fire protection sheathing and constructional tolerances make a clear diameter of 10.1m. A segment thickness of 45cm and annular gap grouting of 16.5cm make the TBM's outer diameter 11.33m. The total length of the tunnel is 6.6km per tube with 26 cross passages run every 250m connecting both tubes. The passages have a cross section of 2.5m x 2.7m, a length of 12m and a clear width through the passage doors of 1.5m. The cross passages are vital to the safety of the Westerschelde Tunnel.
    TUNNEL OUTFIT

    An inspectable service channel below the roadway houses all the wiring for the tunnel outfit, such as air control, signalling, supplies and the safety and communication system. Each cross passage has an underground floor that accommodates electrical distribution boxes. Additional drainage appliances are found at the tunnel bottoms. The fire protection sheathing of the tunnel is designed for a fire-load of 1,350ºC, according to the Rijkswaterstaat specification.
    CROSS PASSAGES

    26 cross passages running every 250m are built using ground freezing methods. A frosted 'body' of 2m thickness is produced around each cross passage by drilling 22 holes for freezing. Special investigations have been made into the influence of salt content of the groundwater and the behaviour of the Boomse clay during freezing as well as the changes of its geological features after thaw. The container size refrigerating plants are positioned inside the tunnel directly beside the cross passages. Calcium chloride solution, applied with a temperature of -37°C is refrigerating medium. The 'bodies' take about 30 to 45 days to freeze, depending on ground conditions.
    TUNNEL BORING MACHINES

    The particular challenge that faces the construction of the Westerschelde Tunnel is the soft clay that has to be bored through. The more sticky, highly-plastified Boomse clay poses geological problems. With the bulk of the tunnel running at up to 60m below sea level, engineers have to design TBMs (tunnel boring machines) comprising of three basic units. They work by boring a whole cross-section of tunnel tube at a forward speed of 12m per day and per tube. Two Mixshields (11.3m in diameter) provided by Herrenknecht AG, start from an artificial polder at Terneuzen and bore through to 20m deep concrete caissons at Ellewoutsdijk. 'Sara', is the name of the machine boring the east tube, and 'Suzanna' the west. The two tunnels are the deepest ever to be driven worldwide and are the greatest challenge to date in terms of machine layout, processing and construction. An open spoke-type cutting wheel with rim, an active centre cutter with own flushing circuit, agitators and a rolling crusher in front of the suction pipe enable optimum material transport.

    CONSTRUCTION MANAGEMENT

    Both tunnel tubes have a concrete lining of 53,000 segments which are placed in position by the boring machine after boring. Local roads are not able to cope with the huge amount of material transport, therefore all major items are supplied via ship and handled at an own landing facility. The production of the 53,000 concrete segments takes place in a twin plant on site. All material going into the tunnel is transported exclusively by rail. Eight Schöma locomotives and 80 wagons operate out of the logistics centre in Terneuzen and are responsible for the transport of the people and materials needed for the construction of the tunnel. There is about 275,000t of concrete to be transported in all. Some of the 1,600,000m³ of spoil produced by the tunnelling is being used for the concrete, with the remainder being dumped off-site.
    A TUNNEL FOR LIFE?

    The Westerschelde Tunnel is the first engineering structure in the world to be designed in a fundamentally correct way on the basis of a designed service life - in this case, 100 years. The intended functions and required reliability are defined and it is then determined which functions would be adversely affected by concrete deterioration. The structural design models can then account for the expected erosion. The tunnel, once finished will be a 6.6km long undersea highway tunnel, running at up to 60m below sea level making it the deepest ever worldwide. Two tunnels, each 10.10m wide will run alongside each other providing northbound and southbound traffic routes that connect the Zeeuwsch-Vlaanderen province to Ellewoutsdijk in Zuid-Beveland, for around 27,000 vehicles per day

    http://www.roadtraffic-technology.com/projects/westerschelde/

    That is for posting such long pointless things. Can you just pick out a quote or two, provide the link, and your assessment of why this is important? I have only been a member for a week or so, but I am already tired of your propensity for just copy/paste.
     
  4. DutchOven

    DutchOven Red Card

    Nov 16, 2004
    Some of you seem to have real difficulty with reality. Aren't you aware that you are looked at as a true crazy person from the Dutch point of view by making these ghosts in the machine declarations? I was anti-Bush too, but in order to think that three million people's votes were changed is really crazy for even a Dutch conspiracy theory. Perhaps it is this kind of crazy that has made me recently come to back Bush? I do not want to be associated with your kind of person.
     
  5. Dan Loney

    Dan Loney BigSoccer Supporter

    Mar 10, 2000
    Cincilluminati
    Club:
    Los Angeles Sol
    Nat'l Team:
    Philippines
    Is someone watching Anne Frank while you post this?
     
  6. Ted Cikowski

    Ted Cikowski Red Card

    May 31, 2000
    Mel Brennan is my hero.
    I even liked Universal.
     
  7. Ian McCracken

    Ian McCracken Member

    May 28, 1999
    USA
    Club:
    SS Lazio Roma
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    You know the American left has maximized their lunacy when someone from even Amsterdam finds them intolerable.
     
  8. DutchOven

    DutchOven Red Card

    Nov 16, 2004
    Rotterdam. We are slightly more conservative here in this city. Our prostitutes, unlike in Amsterdam, are less promiscuous.
     
  9. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I don't think there is enough proof that any real widespread fraud occurred but you're kind of missing the point. The blackbox organization and others aren't arguing that 3 million people's votes were changed....just a few thousand in Florida and Ohio....which would be enough to swing the electoral college in Bush's favor. Again, I'm not saying I am buying this theory at this point but you should at least be aware of what the real debate/theory is.
     
  10. Ted Cikowski

    Ted Cikowski Red Card

    May 31, 2000
    I got nothin'!
     
  11. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002


    Florida:

    Bush 3,911,825 52%
    Kerry 3,534,609 47%

    Ohio:

    Bush 2,796,147 51%
    Kerry 2,659,664 49%
     
  12. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    That is not exactly true.

    Errrr. Never mind.
     
  13. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    If this is the case, then why do election officials deny these groups their due process, and purposefully give them false information?

    You know, it is hard work to fix an election. I wish you Republicans would show some pride in your accomplishment.
     
  14. ElJefe

    ElJefe Moderator
    Staff Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Colorful Colorado
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Frankly, I don't know if there were shenanigans involved. Maybe not, and even if there were, who knows if they enough to influence any elections.

    However, when I read reports about election officials' stonewalling, misleading, and otherwise not being open with the electorate, it does make me wonder. If there's nothing going on, then being open with rabblerousers shouldn't be a problem, right?
     
  15. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    What a strange kind of dutch fan you are... you posted in USA men forum and here till now...

    From an italian POV check everything guys, something clearly stinks.
    And of course don't trust those who try to stop you with weird arguments.

    There's not even the need to find 1.6 million votes changed... just finding evidences of fraud is enough.

    If all the blah-blah about democracy and being the heroes of democracy in the world is serious.

    Sure though if waging war basing it on lies is not matter of impeachment maybe even fraud isn't.
     
  16. AFCA

    AFCA Member

    Jul 16, 2002
    X X X rated
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Iran
    But a lot more ugly.
    And you have terrible accents.
     
  17. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    The supposed conspirators had to switch approx. 188.500 votes in Florida and 68.500 in Ohio to affect the result.
     
  18. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    68 is a bit more than a "few"

    While we have to be wary of fraud, we also don't want to destabilize our democracy. There can be almost no doubt that Bush won the election.
     
  19. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Yes but you shouldn't act as lambs while facing the possibility of an "artificial stabilization" of your democracy.

    hundreds of votes in each of the different places means already thousand(s). If I understand well in a single county.

    I say those ppl are doing the right thing and I don't understand why anyone should be afraid of their investigation.

    as we italians say male non fare, paura non avere.
     
  20. BenReilly

    BenReilly New Member

    Apr 8, 2002
    [​IMG]
     
  21. spejic

    spejic Cautionary example

    Mar 1, 1999
    San Rafael, CA
    Club:
    San Jose Earthquakes
    But the election officials are preventing the boy from seeing the sheep, and are giving him a stick-figure drawing instead. And they gave the job to a guy with a long nose by the name of Mr. C. Lupis instead.
     
  22. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Which is what I essentially said. Yes, I should've been more precise in the language I used. Thank you so kindly for noting that.
     
  23. Daksims

    Daksims New Member

    Jun 27, 2001
    Colorado
    I always stop at the first lie.
     
  24. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lol; was this to "punish" me? I feel so rebuked. Can I hold your hand, just this once?

    So stay out of my threads. This IS just one portion of the article...the important part.

    www.blackboxvoting.org isn't even partisan guy; did you read therest ofthe article, or are you in a politics forum so that I can read everything for you and provide one-quote abstracts?

    You reduce the veracity of your arguments, if any, when you waste time on style points agin' my style; if you don't like my style, stay out of my threads. Simple.

    Now I see why you focused on my style; launching into straw man exercises (point to where anyone says what I've quoted you as saying just above), from your own narrow frame, is actually a worse tack than focusing on my posting style. Shhh.
     
  25. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Study finds Fla. 'ghost' e-votes
    Results showing a Bush boost may help stop future snags

    By Ian Hoffman
    STAFF WRITER


    Friday, November 19, 2004 - In the nation's first academic study of the Florida 2004 vote, University of California, Berkeley graduate students and a professor have found intriguing evidence that electronic-voting counties there could have mistakenly awarded up to 260,000 votes to President Bush.

    The discrepancy, reported Thursday, is insufficient by itself to sway the outcome of the presidential race in Florida, but the UC Berkeley team called on Florida elections officials for an investigation.

    "This is a no-vote-left-behind kind of project, not a change-the-president project," said UC Berkeley sociology professor Michael Hout, who oversaw the research. "We're as interested in the next election as the one just over."

    Broadly speaking, the UC Berkeley team found that Bush received tens of thousands more votes in electronic-voting Democratic counties than past voting patterns would have suggested. No such pattern turned up in counties using optical scanning machines.

    The UC Berkeley report has not been peer reviewed, but a reputable MIT political scientist succeeded in replicating the analysis Thursday at the request of the Oakland Tribune and The Associated Press. He said an investigation is warranted.

    "There is an interesting pattern here that I hope someone looks into," said MIT arts and social sciences Dean Charles Stewart III, a researcher in the MIT-Caltech Voting Technology Project.

    Stewart isn't convinced the problem is electronic voting. It could be absentee voting or some quirk of election administration. But whatever the problem, it didn't show up in counties using optical scanning machines. Rather than offer evidence of fraud or voting problems, the UC Berkeley study infers they exist mathematically.

    Frustrated at the lowbrow, data-poor nature of allegations of election fraud flooding the Internet, three Berkeley grad students decided to apply the tools of first-year statistics class.

    "We decided, well, you might as well test it properly instead of sitting around speculating," said first-year sociology grad student Laura Mangels. She and two colleagues downloaded voting and demographic data, ran them through statistics software and in the first night had results that produced a collective "Wow" among the students, she said.

    They shopped their results to faculty and finally to Hout, a well-known skeptic who is chairman of the university's graduate sociology and demography group.

    "Seven professors later, nobody's been able to poke a hole in our model," Mangels said. "Our results still hold up."
     

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