Anyway, to complete matters re: what I'd posted before, re-posting this is maybe helpful. To be honest I'd probably prefer to take more time to attempt to make it right up to date, because when you've decided to keep a Sky Sports subscription (which gives English domestic football games, Formula 1 etc plus other things) then it can be hard to justify a BT Sports subscription at a similar price too! So having originally subscribed to Sky for CL as much as anything I now don't get to see live games, except when finals have been made available widely online or on some TV channel (and of course highlights appear on Youtube to some extent, but I haven't been extremely thorough in checking them regularly to be honest). In effect I'm almost in the boat of doing a 'retrospective' effort on current football lol, so I'm sure many of you can do better (although of course it's still your own opinion and not my call, so each individual should make his own choices, although using written sources, ratings etc too I suppose). I forget now whether I'd stuck with Messi for 2017/18 over Kevin De Bruyne, but I had made my mind up on one of those around that time I think but maybe didn't post it on a thread. I'd thought Salah for 2018, and then I think I was choosing Van Dijk for 2018/19, and Mane for 2019. 2019/20 and 2020 I'd certainly not be ready yet to make my choices for. What I might do for 1966/67 to 2009 (or 2019) is pick alternatives/runners up (sometimes the first description would be more apt and sometimes I'd be more decisive about using the second one). If I go back to 1966 calendar year and before @Gregoire1 I might just be inclined to only use calendar years without attempting seasons too at this point, but probably there might be a few differences now with my original guesstimate when this thread was started (although for 1st places maybe not many still actually I suspect). I'd certainly be up for participating in looking back at 1965/66 and before (and/or 1970/71 and afterwards) if @Tom Stevens or @Titanlux start anything like that up again.
So here I am copying and pasting my whole list of my latest selections for seasons and calendar years (sometimes I lean towards not naming the same player for both when in doubt I think, and theoretically in real-time that could have applied for the calendar year vote when the season vote had already been cast), and I insert in brackets with 'vs' a second name who I'd suggest as the alternative or runner-up. 1966/67 - Johan Cruyff (vs Florian Albert), 1967 - Bobby Charlton (vs George Best) 1967/68 - George Best (vs Bobby Charlton), 1968 - George Best (vs Gianni Rivera) 1968/69 - Pele (vs George Best), 1969 - Gianni Rivera (vs Johan Cruyff) 1969/70 - Jairzinho (vs Franz Beckenbauer), 1970 - Franz Beckenbauer (vs Johan Cruyff) 1970/71 - Johan Cruyff (vs Franz Beckenbauer), 1971 - Johan Cruyff (vs George Best) 1971/72 - Johan Cruyff (vs Gerd Muller), 1972 - Johan Cruyff (vs Franz Beckenbauer) 1972/73 - Johan Cruyff (vs Johan Neeskens), 1973 - Johan Cruyff (vs Franz Beckenbauer) 1973/74 - Johan Cruyff (vs Franz Beckenbauer), 1974 - Johan Cruyff (vs Johan Neeskens) 1974/75 - Elias Figueroa (vs Oleg Blokhin), 1975 - Franz Beckenbauer (vs Elias Figueroa) 1975/76 - Franz Beckenbauer (vs Rob Rensenbrink), 1976 - Zico (vs Johan Cruyff) 1976/77 - Johan Cruyff (vs Allan Simonsen), 1977 - Johan Cruyff (vs Michel Platini) 1977/78 - Paolo Rossi (vs Mario Kempes), 1978 - Mario Kempes (vs Paolo Rossi) 1978/79 - Kevin Keegan (vs Kenny Dalglish), 1979 - Zico (vs Diego Maradona) 1979/80 - Zico (vs Diego Maradona), 1980 - Diego Maradona (vs Karl-Heinz Rummenigge) 1980/81 - Zico (vs Diego Maradona), 1981 - Zico (vs Karl-Heinz Rummenigge) 1981/82 - Zico (vs Karl-Heinz Rummenigge), 1982 - Zico (vs Michel Platini) to be continued with 2nd choices for these years/seasons.... 1982/82 - Dalglish, 1983 - Platini 1983/84 - Platini, 1984 - Platini 1984/85 - Platini, 1985 - Platini 1985/86 - Diego Maradona, 1986 - Diego Maradona 1986/87 - Diego Maradona, 1987 - Gullit 1987/88 - Gullit, 1988 - Van Basten 1988/89 - Baresi, 1989 - Van Basten 1989/90 - Matthaus, 1990 - Matthaus 1990/91 - Savicevic, 1991 - Papin 1991/92 - M.Laudrup, 1992, Van Basten 1992/93 - R.Baggio, 1993 - R.Baggio 1993/94 - Romario, 1994 - Romario 1994/95 - Savicevic, 1995 - George Weah 1995/96 - George Weah, 1996 - Ronaldo 1996/97 - Ronaldo, 1997 - Ronaldo 1997/98 - Ronaldo, 1998 - Ronaldo 1998/99 Rivaldo, 1999 - Luis Figo 1999/00 - Luis Figo, 2000 - Luis Figo 2000/01 - Luis Figo, 2001 - Luis Figo 2001/02 - Zinedine Zidane, 2002 - Zinedine Zidane 2002/03 - Zinedine Zidane, 2003 - Thierry Henry 2003/04 - Thierry Henry, 2004 - Ronaldinho 2004/05 - Ronaldinho, 2005 - Ronaldinho 2005/06 - Ronaldinho, 2006 - Kaka 2006/07 - Kaka, 2007 - Kaka 2007/08 - Cristiano Ronaldo, 2008 - Cristiano Ronaldo 2008/09 - Lionel Messi, 2009 - Lionel Messi 2009/10 - Lionel Messi, 2010 - Lionel Messi 2010/11 - Lionel Messi, 2011 - Lionel Messi 2011/12 - Lionel Messi, 2012 - Lionel Messi 2012/13 - Lionel Messi, 2013 - Cristiano Ronaldo 2013/14 - Cristiano Ronaldo, 2014 - Arjen Robben 2014/15 - Lionel Messi, 2015 - Lionel Messi 2015/16 - Neymar, 2016 - Lionel Messi 2016/17 - Lionel Messi, 2017 - Lionel Messi 2017/18 - Lionel Messi, 2018 - Mohamed Salah 2018/19 - Virgil van Dijk, 2019 - Sadio Mane
1982/82 - Kenny Dalglish (vs Michel Platini), 1983 - Michel Platini (vs Zico) 1983/84 - Michel Platini (vs Zico), 1984 - Michel Platini (vs Jean Tigana) 1984/85 - Michel Platini (vs Diego Maradona), 1985 - Michel Platini (vs Diego Maradona) 1985/86 - Diego Maradona (vs Gary Lineker), 1986 - Diego Maradona (vs Ruud Gullit) 1986/87 - Diego Maradona (vs Paulo Futre), 1987 - Ruud Gullit (vs Carlos Valderrama) 1987/88 - Ruud Gullit (vs Diego Maradona), 1988 - Marco van Basten (vs Diego Maradona) 1988/89 - Franco Baresi (vs Lothar Matthaus), 1989 - Marco van Basten (vs Franco Baresi) 1989/90 - Lothar Matthaus (vs Marco van Basten), 1990 - Lothar Matthaus (vs Franco Baresi) 1990/91 - Dejan Savicevic (vs Jean-Pierre Papin), 1991 - Jean-Pierre Papin (vs Dejan Savicevic) 1991/92 - Michael Laudrup (vs Marco van Basten), 1992 - Marco van Basten (vs Dennis Bergkamp) 1992/93 - Roberto Baggio (vs Michael Laudrup), 1993 - Roberto Baggio (vs Michael Laudrup) 1993/94 - Romario (vs Roberto Baggio), 1994 - Romario (vs Roberto Baggio) 1994/95 - Dejan Savicevic (vs Jurgen Klinsmann), 1995 - George Weah (vs Paolo Maldini) 1995/96 - George Weah (vs Jari Litmanen), 1996 - Ronaldo (vs George Weah) 1996/97 - Ronaldo (vs Gianfranco Zola), 1997 - Ronaldo (vs Dennis Bergkamp) 1997/98 - Ronaldo (vs Dennis Bergkamp), 1998 - Ronaldo (vs Zinedine Zidane) 1998/99 - Rivaldo (vs Andriy Shevchenko), 1999 - Luis Figo (vs Andriy Shevchenko) 1999/00 - Luis Figo (vs Zinedine Zidane), 2000 - Luis Figo (vs Zinedine Zidane) 2000/01 - Luis Figo (vs Zinedine Zidane), 2001 - Luis Figo (vs Zinedine Zidane) 2001/02 - Zinedine Zidane (vs Robert Pires), 2002 - Zinedine Zidane (vs Ronaldinho) 2002/03 - Zinedine Zidane (vs Pavel Nedved), 2003 - Thierry Henry (vs Zinedine Zidane) 2003/04 - Thierry Henry (vs Ronaldinho), 2004 - Ronaldinho (vs Thierry Henry) 2004/05 - Ronaldinho (vs Thierry Henry), 2005 - Ronaldinho (vs Thierry Henry) 2005/06 - Ronaldinho (vs Samuel Eto'o), 2006 - Kaka (vs Fabio Cannavaro) 2006/07 - Kaka (vs Cristiano Ronaldo), 2007 - Kaka (vs Cristiano Ronaldo) 2007/08 - Cristiano Ronaldo (vs Fernando Torres), 2008 - Cristiano Ronaldo (vs Lionel Messi) 2008/09 - Lionel Messi (vs Andres Iniesta), 2009 - Lionel Messi (vs Andres Iniesta) 2009/10 - Lionel Messi (vs Wesley Sneijder), 2010 - Lionel Messi (vs Xavi) 2010/11 - Lionel Messi (vs Xavi), 2011 - Lionel Messi (vs Cristiano Ronaldo) 2011/12 - Lionel Messi (vs Cristiano Ronaldo), 2012 - Lionel Messi (vs Andrea Pirlo) 2012/13 - Lionel Messi (vs Franck Ribery), 2013 - Cristiano Ronaldo (vs Franck Ribery) 2013/14 - Cristiano Ronaldo (vs Arjen Robben), 2014 - Arjen Robben (vs Cristiano Ronaldo) 2014/15 - Lionel Messi (vs Cristiano Ronaldo), 2015 - Lionel Messi (vs Neymar) 2015/16 - Neymar (vs Antoine Griezmann), 2016 - Lionel Messi (vs Antoine Griezmann) 2016/17 - Lionel Messi (vs Eden Hazard), 2017 - Lionel Messi (vs Eden Hazard) 2017/18 - Lionel Messi (vs Kevin De Bruyne), 2018 - Mohamed Salah (vs Eden Hazard) 2018/19 - Virgil van Dijk (vs Eden Hazard), 2019 - Sadio Mane (vs Lionel Messi)
Can't get my mind around the ridiculous amount of love Figueroa gets from so many users based on his mid-70s. A BdO win for a defender based on domestic achievements only? Really?
You don't show the "entire movie" here. Since, mid 1960s to late 1970s, Figueroa was among the top players in every league he played: Chilean --> uruguayan --> brasilian --> chilean Also, depends how do you rate those leagues in those eras. You can add, some WCs, WCQs and SACs, also considering the gap between leagues wasn't so higher as nowadays, to get a better overview.
I think in terms of 1974/75 I was thinking that there is somewhat of an 'open window' for him to take that potentially (or to get my vote, as hard as it is to make such a call in retrospect and with limited footage/info etc to go on for various candidates), and also that it was right in the middle of his period of winning South American Player of the Year awards and helping Internacional to the top of Brazilian football as it's major star or one of it's major stars (Falcao was emerging I know too), with the 1975 year sealed even by a famous goal by himself. Cruyff was I would say the top player in the game and still showing it at times for Barcelona and the Netherlands, but compared to his previous season his general level and acclaim has fallen back a bit over the whole period I suppose. Beckenbauer had I believe a somewhat slow start to 74/75, with Bayern's defensive side of the game an issue and his own form not helping his Ballon d'Or case for 1974 apparently (which obviously Cruyff had a great case for anyway, but with the narrative of the winning team getting credited as often happens maybe Beckenbauer would get closer in the voting with a more impressive start to the new season). The IOC poll for Europe for 1974/75 had Blokhin and team-mate Onishenko (who also scored an impressive goal in the CWC final didn't he) sandwiching Maier as the podium, although maybe there can be other European candidates outside of Cruyff/Beckenbauer even so. Blokhin's goals vs Bayern in the Super Cup aren't strictly part of 74/75 of course, although theoretically perhaps voting for a worldwide award would take place in and around the time those games were played. I think Figueroa could be considered (and is to an extent historically) of a standard as a player to merit consideration for such an award, and the assumption I make I suppose is that generally he was playing to somewhere close to his highest level, in a notable league with some world stars in various teams. This video kind of shows I think that (although the result of the game went in Germany's favour), in general his class as a defender wasn't behind Beckenbauer's (actually as a pure defender probably ahead), and so it was when Beckenbauer thrived the most with incursions into the opposition danger zone with dribbles and passing combinations etc that he would show why he had that bit extra as a player (in this game that isn't especially evident though for example overall): Art of Defending ● Franz Beckenbauer ● Berti Vogts ● Elías Figueroa| 3 Legends in one Game|1974 WC| - YouTube But I was always, and still am currently, a bit conflicted or undecided about that kind of period (for example also Simonsen vs Platini for 1976/77 and 1977 calendar year in terms of which player might be a better fit for which of those).
Although to be fair, reminding myself about the results, he couldn't get much closer in the voting without winning lol! Anyway, yeah I think his start to 74/75 was questionable in essence (for a start to a Player of the Season campaign).
There is no historical merit for Figueroa, that's the point. Only a retroactive online coronation, where South Americans have puffed him full of hype like a balloon. The idea of the 70s Brazilian league as a major competition with world stars is another fairytale. They couldn't even find one top class striker for 1974. Imagine how much football in Europe would have to be in the doldrums for even a legendary defender like Baresi or Maldini to win PotY once, let alone three times? No Beckenbauer mentions needed, because he was actually a midfielder who dabbled around at being a defender. For his awards Figueroa faced heavy competition from players like Ligue 1 flop Alonso and Wattenscheid icon Babington. I'd say a fair comparison for Figueroa would be someone like Krol. And that's being VERY generous, considering the Dutchman had higher accolades at all levels of the game. And anyone can check how close a Krol came to the BdO. This is South American privilege at it's finest.
You're entitled to your view mate I guess, but I was just explaining my own thought process. I do think if Krol's own peak as a libero had come as early as 1974/75 then that could be a season he could have been a contender in theory too perhaps. I did pick Baresi for 1988/89, and of course Cannavaro did win the actual Ballon d'Or in 2006 (and surely team achievements can influence things, but at the end it's an individual accolade, while in 74/75 if Beckenbauer/Muller etc have some question marks overall then maybe there's not a clear case of better team achievements aligned with a player in his peak including consistency wise...I assume). In 1976 Figueroa did face competition from Zico of course, and Rivelino was around and in form too (I know that specific year is not the one I've slotted him in for though, but like I say I think 1974/75 and/or 1975 probably has more of an 'open window' for the reasons I mentioned).
I think, most people agree that 2nd half 1970s was a weak era comparing other eras, as a transition period between 2 generations. As PDG said, it's no fair, comparing a defender only with the strikers he played against, but with the whole pool (Zico, Falcao, Rivelino, etc), also in the exercise of Bd'O we don't evaluate what X players did before or after, we evaluate a specific season. And in the mid 70s, Brasilian league was among top5 world leagues and Figueroa the top player there in that specific time. So, he had the credentials to merit inclusion.
It wasn't a criticism of your lists in particular (since Figueroa seems to be all over everyone's list), just in general challenging the canon of Figueroa as the South American Beckenbauer. The likes of Baresi or Cannavaro get included only when they have merits on a continental scale, whether for club or country. Figueroa is literally the only defender in history who gets a free ride to BdO top 3 based on domestic achievement alone. In Europe even attacking players don't get that kind of a bonus.
Yeah, sure I get that, so sorry if I made it seem like I was taking it as a personal criticism. I thought I'd give my reasoning for the inclusion/nomination as a response anyway when I saw your post (which can be triggered by my attempt at a list, but like you say it'd be the same with other attempts that included him, as could be quite common like you imply, and did in the first post about it). It's an interesting discussion point anyway. Maybe being seen as 'king of South America' with the string of awards there does give some kind of prestige, but there isn't confirmation/verification from real-time sources (at least major ones) that he'd be crowned best in the world at any particular moment or player of any particular year worldwide. Valderrama in 1987 could be somewhat similar, and maybe I gave him the runner-up/alternative spot this time for variation , although it does seem like he was in a great moment of his career and he did make a big impact in the Copa America. World Soccer's reader voting for World Player of the Year didn't feature him that year, but then to be fair although World Soccer readers should by definition be interested in the world game, for a predominantly British readership there could be a bit of a blind spot for South American football (the footage would be limited, although I'm not quite sure to what extent as just because I wasn't watching something as a primary school kid doesn't mean it wasn't available, including late night shows on the less popular TV channels etc). I saw a reference somewhere recently that Puskas was deemed Player of the Year in 1953 by World Soccer by the way. I can't remember if you'd already discovered that yourself, but I guess the editorial team made that choice, if it's true info.
For 2019/20 I probably would be leaning to 'agreement' with a likely consensus: Robert Lewandowski (vs Lionel Messi), ahead of the likes of Thomas Muller, Kevin De Bruyne, Sadio Mane. Like I said, it's difficult for me to be a real-time judge but for completeness I'm adding my call on that from what I've looked at and taken on board. 2020 calendar year I might come back to still, as I'd be inclined to be open to a degree of variation (like with my split choices in some other years, giving the benefit of the doubt to those not picked in the European summer to summer season's selection), but I'm not really sure it's likely to be much of a different selection in the end.
I'm thinking it could be one of the year's where the calendar year vote I'd lean towards might match the one for the season too, given Messi's start in the Champions League and Lewandowski's scoring form in the Bundesliga particularly. Maybe a top 5 if I was making one could be different. Muller and Mane perhaps with a reduced case for example (it seems like the end of 2019 would have been their most positive part of 19/20 I'd say), and although injuries cut into their calendar year (which was an interrupted one in general anyway obviously) I'd think the cases of Son Hueng Min and Marcus Rashford for example could be more persuasive potentially all in all. So that'd mean I had Lewandowski joining the club of players taking my verdict for both the season and then the calendar year: also Best, Cruyff 5 times, Zico twice, Platini twice, Maradona, Matthaus, Baggio, Romario, Ronaldo twice, Figo twice, Zidane, Ronaldinho, Kaka, C.Ronaldo, Messi 6 times. That's just since 1966/67 though, so obviously I'd expect Pele to feature like that quite a bit before then and others like Di Stefano and Puskas could be prime candidates to have been doing so in the 1950s too. In theory it's not less of an accolade to be awarded a calendar year award and then follow it with the season's award the following summer though and the list of players I've got down that way instead would be a bit different: Cruyff 3 times, Beckenbauer, Zico twice, Platini twice, Maradona, Gullit, Weah, Ronaldo twice, Figo twice, Zidane, Henry, Ronaldinho twice, Kaka, Messi 6 times, C.Ronaldo. And obviously other people could be making different calls and changing that list (and the other one) a fair bit potentially, so it's not meant to be some definitive guide.
Do you happen to have those pages that explain why Matthews and Di Stefano was "hors concours" (i.e. ineligible) for the 1957 and 1958 BDO respectively? I've been looking for that book but without much success. Thank you so much.
Ballon dor according to the most ESM monthly selections accumulated in a single year Rivaldo 1999 calender year 6 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Rivaldo Luis figo 1999 calender year 3 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Luís_Figo Andriy shevchenco 1999 calender year 2 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Andriy_Shevchenko Ronaldinho 2006 calender year 5 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Ronaldinho Ricardo kaka 2006 calender year 2 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Kaká Fabio cannavaro 2006 calender year 1 ESM team of the month selection Cristiano Ronaldo 2007 calender year 6 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Cristiano_Ronaldo Ricardo kaka 2007 calender year 4 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Kaká Cristiano Ronaldo 2014 calender year 8 ESM team of the month selections Lionel Messi 2014 calender year 4 ESM team of the month selections Arjen robben 2014 calender year 4 ESM team of the month selections Lionel Messi 2018 calender year 8 ESM team of the month selections Mohammed salah 2018 calender year 4 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Mohamed_Salah Eden hazard 2018 calender year 3 ESM team of the month selections https://erubik.xyz/esm/player.php?id=Eden_Hazard
Rivaldo had some iffy form, and had some games where he was getting a bad reception from Barcelona fans during late 1999 I know (I saw some articles referring to it before, but don't find them right now, but the La Liga team of 1999/00 from Ballon d'Or can be somewhat relevant so I'll post that below for now instead) (So not top 3 in any slot as a centrocampista i.e midfielder, or punta i.e striker/attacker according to Don Ballon ratings in La Liga) That said, maybe he's still a good candidate, and I don't exactly say his Ballon d'Or is invalid or something like that (that's meant to be predominantly calendar year although I guess it's accepted that the end of the prior season takes precedence and I know sometimes/often the whole prior season is considered by various voters in some respect - plus during 1999 calendar year for Brazil he made a significant contribution of course). Ronaldinho is an interesting one, as he was seen as being in decline (with the World Cup disappointing in particular, even if some stats models don't show him as being too bad - they can be misleading sometimes though in terms of what is considered a chance created and that sort of thing, and sometimes the impressions that lead to average ratings can be more representative of actually how well a player was playing), although he had his moments during 06/07 I know, and apart from the Final the latter stages of the 05/06 CL would be a positive on his 2006 resume I'm sure. Maybe sometimes I like to offer a somewhat leftfield choice, but I think Kaka has his own merits so I'm showing some of them below - the performance away in Bayern, Transfermarkt's tally of 7 assists during the 2006 part of 05/06 in Serie A, and a couple of good examples (how he started in the 2006/07 CL also being relevant and a positive, no matter what might be said about opposition level I think....and you would think also in 2013/14 I guess for example!) Ricardo Kaká vs Bayer Münich #UCL Away 2005/06 by Alex - YouTube Kaká - Detailed stats | Transfermarkt 3:16 here Parma 2-3 AC Milan | 2005-2006 | - YouTube Reggina 1-4 Milan - Campionato 2005/06 - YouTube (The registered assist is for the 3rd Milan goal, but actually the more impressive 'assist' is for the first one, except because Inzaghi scores at the 2nd attempt it isn't counted...although to be fair one at home to Parma was counted even though an own goal I notice on the other hand) 2005/06 as a whole is one of his two best rated Serie A seasons overall too, according to DBS Calcio DBS Calcio He ended top 3 in the league, and perhaps with better ratings in 2006 than 2005 (could be wrong though - I haven't seen any Italian publication summaries or specific game ratings for that season myself I don't think) Ricerca per media voto Player Search (263 risultati trovati) 1 Luca Toni 6.711 2 Francesco Totti 6.696 3 Kaka 6.484 I know you already know how well Robben started in 2014/15 because you've said it yourself I remember, and used some stats and ratings too to illustrate the form he was in: I think the end of 2013/14 was pretty good too wasn't it on the whole, and of course International games are also to consider, not only club games, and his World Cup is a big plus, so I think it's a fair suggestion to put him in the mix and for me personally to suggest him as a possible first placed player for that calendar year. Salah in 2018, without Ramos intervention, possibly gets in for May too, but anyway I think in both Premier League as well as Champions League he went on a run of great form and impact for most of the 2018 part of 2017/18, and like I say maybe the weighting would fairly be skewed a bit more towards that season as it concerns the 'business end' as compared to the start of 2018/19, although I think he'd started to make an impact before Christmas a bit that season too hadn't he. Although he didn't play the World Cup, Messi himself didn't really enhance any case during that tournament I think, and concerning ESM maybe Messi is almost a default selection (most of the time it can be 'correct' probably, but I mean his profile was such that most journalists might need reasons to not include him in a month rather than vice versa and he shouldn't have been having unlucky missed months anyway). I didn't put zero thought into those calls or have zero reasons for them anyway! I think it's fair enough that I made the choices, and I don't say they are the gospel truth as such or something, but just my ideas.
I think your methodology is flawed due to this ESM monthly selections are voted strictly on merit and not default positions /personal whims Almost every single source that is used to validate the greatness and consistency of classical era players is a member of ESM Current members A Bola Fanatik Frankfurter Allgemeine Zeitung La Gazzetta dello Sport kicker Marca nemzeti sport SO FOOT Sport Express Sport Magazine telesport Tipsbladet Voetbal International World Soccer Is not possible that journalists who are paid to share their footballing expertise would get it so catastrophically wrong by literally awarding Lionel Messi more ESM monthly selections then salah/hazard had combined in the 2018 calender year Its not a difference of one or 2 months Its more then they accumulated combined You cant just merely dismiss with unfounded claims The onus is on you to prove Messi is seen as a default position for ESM team of the month selections without Merit. Regarding Robben i know about his level and studied this episode. Between January and March 2015 he was one whole level above Cristiano Between January and December 2014 he was nowhere near except in 7 world cup matches The peak of Arjen robben as a league player was between August 2014 to March 2015. The peak as a champion's league player was in the knockout stages of 12/13 and the group stages of 2013/14 If you want to argue he was a better champions league performer then Cristiano in the 2013 calender year be my guest(its a much better case) However In the 2014 calender year he did nothing in the champions league 2014 calender year Top 5 leagues Cristiano Ronaldo 8.79 Arjen robben 7.93 Champions league Including ratings as a starter Arjen robben 2014 calender year https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...mpions-League-2013-2014-Arsenal-Bayern-Munich 7.52 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...mpions-League-2013-2014-Bayern-Munich-Arsenal 7.88 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...gue-2013-2014-Manchester-United-Bayern-Munich 6.58 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...gue-2013-2014-Bayern-Munich-Manchester-United 9.00 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Real-Madrid-Bayern-Munich 7.34 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Bayern-Munich-Real-Madrid 6.65 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...eague-2014-2015-Bayern-Munich-Manchester-City 6.93 out of 10 Didnt start https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...eague-2014-2015-Manchester-City-Bayern-Munich 6.82 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2014-2015-CSKA-Moscow-Bayern-Munich 7.42 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2014-2015-Bayern-Munich-CSKA-Moscow 7.42 didnt start https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...Champions-League-2014-2015-Roma-Bayern-Munich 9.87 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...Champions-League-2014-2015-Bayern-Munich-Roma Didnt play Arjen robbens overall rating as a starter playing in the champions league during the 2014 calender year 7.67 In the 2014 calender year cristianos champions league ratings was 8.38 https://www.messivsronaldo.app/calendar-year-stats/2014/ Not to be accused of showing half the picture Lionel messis champions league ratings in the 2014 calender year was 8.61 Higher even then Ronaldo but that has alot to do with how he performed in the groupstages of the 2014/15 CL and not how he performed in the knockout stages of the 2013/14 CL Lionel Messi 2014/15 CL groupstages .@WhoScored: “Lionel Messi is the highest rated player of the 2014/15 @ChampionsLeague Group Stage.” pic.twitter.com/TNXNgyqESy— Quotes on Messi 🗨️ (@MessiQuote) December 11, 2014 Cristiano Ronaldo 2014/15 CL groupstages https://www.whoscored.com/Regions/2...rStatistics/Europe-Champions-League-2014-2015 8.05 Lionel Messi 2013/14 CL knockout stages https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...ns-League-2013-2014-Manchester-City-Barcelona 8.24 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...ns-League-2013-2014-Barcelona-Manchester-City 9.33 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Barcelona-Atletico-Madrid 7.33 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Atletico-Madrid-Barcelona 6.29 Messis Overall average rating in the 2013/14 CL knockout stages 7.90 Cristiano Ronaldo 2013/14 knockout stages https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...pions-League-2013-2014-Schalke-04-Real-Madrid 10 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/7...pions-League-2013-2014-Real-Madrid-Schalke-04 9.80 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...eague-2013-2014-Real-Madrid-Borussia-Dortmund 8.45 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Real-Madrid-Bayern-Munich 6.53 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...ns-League-2013-2014-Bayern-Munich-Real-Madrid 9.11 https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/8...-League-2013-2014-Real-Madrid-Atletico-Madrid 8.45 Cristianos average rating in the 13/14 CL knockout stages 8.72 So in context Messi wasnt really better then Cristiano in the champions league during the 2014 calender year knockout stages> groupstages At the mid way point of the champions league knockout stages Ronaldo developed serious knee injuries which puts this into further perspective IMO Back to Arjen robben He has an advantage over cristiano only at 7 world cup games There is literally no advantage for him over cristiano Ronaldo(or Messi for that matter) at any point between January-December 2014 Not in the league and not in the champions league The onus is on you to prove otherwise The ESM team of the month selections corroborates this too About 2018/19 its not a serious thing to compare Messi to Salah In the beginning,middle or end This was probably the best football of his entire career Did salah 18/19 even score or assist a single goal against the top 4 teams in his own leagues? https://www.transfermarkt.co.uk/mohamed-salah/leistungsdaten/spieler/148455/saison/2018/plus/1 This isn't an attack btw so i hope you don't misconstrue it as such just mild criticism and an expression of different points of contention If ESM is a good source then it is always a good source If DBS calcio is a good source then it is always a good source Not just good when it enforces mine or your own perceptions I agree though Its good to use these sources in conjunction with others My problem is there is simply nothing that supports salah being even remotely comparable to Messi in the first half of 18/19 Neither statistically or technically. salah 18/19 wasnt doing it in big games either Van dijk 18/19 literally scored the same amount of champions league knockout stage goals as salah You can remind me the last time Barcelonas centre back scored the same amount of champions league KO goals in one season as peak Messi. You should also look at Messi in 17/18. he had one of if not the highest dbs calcio rating in la liga history Salahs 17/18 CL knockout stage performances is IMO nowhere near great enough to build that bridge About Ronaldinho its been discussed back and forth After March 2006 he dropped one level below his absolute peak Between August 2005 and March 2006 he was arguably competing against only himself In context it doesnt matter if Ronaldinho dropped one level if at his best he was always 2 levels above kaka at his respective best ( in a league format especially) 2006 calender year Top 5 leagues+champions league+domestic cups https://www.transfermarkt.com/spiel...usrichtung=alle&spielerposition_id=alle&art=2 Ronaldinho 2006 calender year 24 goals+20 assists 9 penalties 3790 minutes played(42.1 matches played) 0.83 non penalty goals+assists per 90 Cristiano Ronaldo 2006 calender year 19 goals+12 assists 0 penalties 3824 minutes played(42.4 matches played) 0.73 non penalty goals+assists per 90 Ricardo Kaka 2006 calender year 21 goals+14 assists 7 penalties 4165 minutes played(46.2 matches played) 0.60 non penalty goals+assists per 90 They are all at this stage(2006) what one would call a 'dynamic playmaker' A straight up statistical comparison isnt out of line https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/kaka-2006/ Dynamic playmaker https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/ronaldinho-2006/ Dynamic playmaker https://projects.fivethirtyeight.com/world-cup-comparisons/cristiano-ronaldo-2006/ Dynamic playmaker You can say what you want about cristianos traditional playmaking(ie ground passing) He completed over 4 dribbles per 90 in the 2005/06 PL Over 3 dribbles per 90 in the 2006 world cup Over 4 dribbles per 90 in the 2006/07 CL His playmaking had more to do with ball progression via dribbles and carries then progressive passes Just a different type of creative outlet but not less influential Every indication suggests he was the best dribbler in the world during the 2006 calender year(much better then he was in 2008) There are sources for this too On top of the statistical advantage Ronaldinho 2006 had 6 ESM team of the month selections to kakas 3 Its a complete whitewash There is no angle from which one could consider Kaka a better performer then Ronaldinho across the 2006 calender year 2007/08 is when Kaka truly surpassed Ronaldinho as the most in form Brazilian footballer on the planet IMO
Ok, well thanks for clarifying that! Of course, you could have presented your ideas for these years without quoting my posts (but on the other hand then maybe I wouldn't have added some points like Rivaldo's declining form in the 2nd part of 1999, or sources in Kaka's favour in both halves of 2006....which I guess is my number 1 argument if anything, that he was one of the rarer cases that calendar year of a player who didn't peak in one half of the year). Maybe I would ask if you are definitely feeling yourself that you are consistent with emphasis on CL latter stage displays in 2014 and 2018? Part of my logic that I maybe explained briefly was that I was in effect 'giving out' two awards - for the season and then for the calendar year, and if in doubt might lean towards a different winning player (so Kempes and Rossi maybe for one each in 1978 for example - whichever way round that might be as I'm a bit unsure....but yeah in theory I could imagine switching the benefit of the doubt if two awards for world player were being handed out - I guess in recent times it can be a little bit like combining the UEFA Player of the Year award, albeit that is a Europe-based player only award, with the Ballon d'Or, albeit that is not necessarily traditionally exactly a full calendar year 'performance based' award but a little more nuanced with other considerations). So if I already give 2017/18 to Messi, then I'd be more inclined towards Salah for 2018...not that there aren't cases where I had the same player down for season and calendar year ("clear choice" cases I could suggest). I guess it's right (not that WhoScored stats are the be all and end all) that Robben was more consistent in the Bundesliga than Champions League, but in those highest scoring (as per WhoScored) games, against significant clubs, he does have substantial merit still, and scored some stand-out goals (I guess there is some significant correlation between having scored these goals and the rating from WhoScored obviously too, although I'm not fully clued up on how much and to what extent quality of goal impacts that except vs United the 'dribbles' would be factored in) Bayern Munich vs Manchester United 3-1 2014 →Robben & GOLES← Bayern 3:1 Manchester Utd ~ 09-04-2014 - YouTube Arjen Robben Goal ~ Roma vs Bayern Munich 1:7 UEFA - YouTube I think especially in 05/06 Kaka was more of a proper midfield player mostly (still in 06/07 he had elements of it - his role hadn't changed completely I think), and I think sometimes dribble numbers can reflect preferences players have and sometimes less can be more (because when players choose to pass first time, involve team-mates in intricate moves etc they are sometimes doing so having rejected a chance to try to dribble). But I guess Kaka's own dribble numbers would not be insignificant too (not that I have any reference as to what they were - maybe you can find something or maybe you can't).
I can look into it The only source i have is for the shots on/off target for all Milan players in the 2006/07 Champions league https://www.theguardian.com/football/2007/may/22/championsleague.acmilan3 For dribbles there isnt much to go on but i dont think its too impressive A devastating ball carrier can sometimes give the illusion of a prolific dribbler These things can be mistaken for being one and the same thing In the 2006 world cup Cristiano led for dribbling attempts and succesful dribbles Attempts 1 - Cristiano Ronaldo, playing in his very first World Cup, finished the 2006 tournament with the joint-most shots (26), and also the most attempted dribbles (37):37 - Cristiano Ronaldo36 - Franck Ribéry29 - Thierry Henry28 - Luis Figo25 - KakáEffervescent. #OptaWCYears pic.twitter.com/0ZkgdfbnHs— OptaJoe (@OptaJoe) May 13, 2020 Successful Most dribbles in WC 2006 (1/2)1) Cristiano : 18 (3.36 p90)2) Henry : 18 (2.56 p90)3) Ribéry : 16 (2.81 p90)4) Ronaldinho : 14 (2.93 p90)5) Figo : 13 (2.22 p90) pic.twitter.com/up15CiSpOE— Gasipo (@gasipo_opinions) August 3, 2021 In 2006/07 Cristiano was the top dribbler in the champions league 82 - Lionel Messi has completed more dribbles in the CL this season than any other player since his debut. Magician. pic.twitter.com/hAtSfV872M— OptaJohan (@OptaJohan) June 6, 2015 In 2007/08 Lionel Messi was the top dribbler in the champions league 4 - Leo Messi dribbles completed in Champions League in 2004/05, 2005/06, 2006/07 and 2007/08 seasons:- 2004/05: 6 (1 GP)- 2005/06: 11 (6 GP)- 2006/07: 9 (5 GP)- 2007/08: 43 (9 GP)Progression pic.twitter.com/21EzaB9RUo— OptaJose (@OptaJose) May 7, 2020 and continued to dominate this category uninterrupted up until 2012/13 season i think He was also the top dribbler of the 2010 and 2014 world cups At his absolute peak Kakas athleticism is probably his one defining feature that separated him from other regular world class players Not his finishing,dribbling or passing In 2006/07 he was a fully blown forward. He had more shots then inzaghi and gilardino combined Before that he was a midfielder i agree
Ok, thanks. For me, successful dribbles is better than attempted (or one of them plus dribble success % maybe). Not to say then that the stat can say everything that the eye could see watching the footage (with all the context of the moment, and appreciation of the quality used, decision making etc etc), but I think attempted dribbles says more about playing style and approach (and maybe how much possession a player or team has, and what the game situation is in terms of scoreline and such even).
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Hello everyone, We're excited to share on the Big Soccer forum our new project, "Your Soccer Games". We aim to bring together collectors of old soccer matches from all over the world. Right now, three top collectors have shared their lists on our site, with a total of 440,000 matches: - **Futbolvideo** from Brazil with 100,000 matches - **Davja** from Australia with 40,000 matches - **Your Soccer Games** from France with 300,000 matches More collectors are joining us soon, adding to our database that already has over 70 years of soccer history. **Your Soccer Games** is for everyone who loves soccer: - **Pro players**: Look back at your old matches. - **Collectors**: Find rare matches. - **Influencers**: Use our video database for your social media. - **Fans**: Watch historic matches of your favorite club. Check out all the matches on our website: https://your-soccer-games.com/all-matchs