Aside from Rooney or Ronaldo. it could be argued we are a rather ordinary side with a good back four (based on our results to date). The most obvious argument involves Ronaldo's scoring rate and what our record would be without him. However, that is an argument that would need to be based on a few assumptions that I will leave to others. I'll start this off by offering a stat about Rooney that may surprise a few people who may not fully grasp his true value to United. Here are United's league record and goal scoring averages with and without Rooney in the line-up. W/Rooney W-10, D-1, L-0, GS-30, GPM-2.7 W/O Rooney W-4, D-2, L-3, GS-7, GPM-0.8 Note: I counted Reading as W/O Rooney as he was injured halfway through the first half. The difference in our goal output and record clearly demonstrate how important he is to the side. His scoring, passing, and hustle are obvious. But perhaps more important are the intangibles he brings to the table. His grit, passion and determination permeates throughout the squad when he is on the pitch. He makes other players better. Now some will say, this simply points out that we need another quality striker. And while I do agree we need another striker, there is no replacement for Rooney. BTW.. counting the CL. Our record with Rooney in the line-up is W-14, D-2, L-0.
That's no coincidence at all. Rooney doesn't tolerate second best, he's a real fighter. When you take him out you got a bunch of artists with no real balls(aside from Ronaldo) and when those artists are ruffled they tuck their tails between their legs. This is where a true leader comes in. When things get rough there needs to be someone out there that just calms things down and inspires the team. You could tell that our guys are a bunch of good players just playing football out there and it looks good when things are going good but when we're under the kosh no one seems to have a clue.
If I was Fergie, Rooney would have been my Captain going into this season. He would relish it, and I think the added responsibility would temper his occasional moments of madness.
I agree but you and I both know Fergie doesn't do the obvious. Oh no, he'll make probably one of the quietest guys on the team(Giggs) captain in the absence of Neville. Rooney has been here long enough, I think he deserves it and he needs to be put back into his free role so he could make those tackles at left back.
I think Rooney should be captain, age does not come into play here because how meant footballers play regularly at 16... Ronaldo would be/is (Portugal) a good captain, but since Rooney speaks English better... Gazz cannot be relied upon, and Giggsy/Scholes (the natural expirence) are too quite. Rio too immature you could say
I want to see Roo made captain as well. I think Rio would have been a natural replacement, and maybe he still should be, but he's bottled things more than once. After the last of the golden generation, we pretty much get to the kids (skipping over Rio), so Rooney would be my choice.
I'm bored so I'll jump in. Our side without Ronaldo or Rooney (imo) ---------------VDS --------Rio-----------Vidic --Neville--------------------Evra -----------Hargreaves --------Scholes -----------------------Giggs --Park/Nani ------------------Anderson ----------Tevez The fact that Scholes is absent especially irks me as he is the spine of the team and helps us retain possession as he uses the ball so wisely. While Rooney and Ronaldo are our matchwinners, calling that team "rather ordinary" seems a stretch imo. Cue others. Well Ronaldo has 13 league goals and we have 37 league goals total. I calculate that as just over a third of our goals. For every 3 goals we score, Ronaldo's bound to of scored 1 of them! That's a remarkable record for Ronaldo but one is is very unsettling as our dependence on Ronaldo could determine our whole season... Unless other players step up to relieve the pressure from him then it looks like Ronaldo is going to have to have another "annus mirabilis" to keep us going... Yeah, I saw this on skysports too. It's reminds me of Arsenal's record with and without Flamini in the side. I can't say I'm surprised as Rooney is a winner and his influence is evident on the team. Seeing as this is the "beyond Rooney and Ronaldo" thread, let's get the same stats for Ronaldo League Only: Note Ronaldo has a bigger sample size as he has played more games) W/Ronaldo W-12, D-2, L-1, GS-34, GPM-2.3 W/O Ronaldo W-2, D-1, L-2, GS-3, GPM-0.6 This tells us we score even less with Ronaldo out of the side while Rooney provides us with more goals. Out of the 34 goals with Ronnie in the side, Ronaldo has scored 13 of them. That makes him look even more impressive (not that he needs it). These results indicate how effective Ronaldo's pace, goals and overall play have on the team. Similar to Rooney, Ronaldo also has intangibles to offer like drive, passion and an unerring confidence you just can't beat out of him (even though there's no need)I think we can safely assume that there is no replacement for Ronaldo too.
why does Gary Neville have poor leadership qualities? I read on wiki that he has a reputation as a "union" figure within the England camp. Unfortunately, there was no citation to the original source. Anyone care to shed more light on this?
Gary Neville led the other England players into a strike just before the Turkey away Euro 2004 qualifier (which we drew 0-0 to qualify). I believe that it was the decision to ban Rio for eight months for his lack of drug testing that caused this. Needless to say the English public and media were not particulary impressed.
While our constant Ronaldo's dependency is not very encouraging, at least we know he's durable and doesn't get injured easily. Can't say the same about Rooney, who's missed almost half of the first half of season.
This team has had a serious lack in leadership since Keane left, and sadly it was something we saw coming from far away. Gaz, as much as we love him, isn't the leader we really need, even when he is healthy. Ronaldo is only a "leader" in the sense that he can grab hold of a game and influence it himself. And while that's an important attribute to have, he needs to eventually take it to the next level and bring his teammates into it. When his team is playing poorly, that's the sort of thing that separates a true captain from a ceremonial one. Rooney actually has this quality to some extent, which is something we saw more a couple of years ago. Recently, likely due to his injuries, we haven't seen it nearly as much, although 433tom's initial post indicates that Rooney obviously still has a pretty big influence over this team. They're both still very young and are going to go through periods when they doubt themselves, which gets reflected in their play. It'd be a big risk to make either of them the captain. It's a shame Rio keeps having these cock-ups off the field, because he's the closest thing we have to a consistent leader, even if he doesn't contribute much offensively. Part of me wonders if Fergie would ever give Rio the armband in the hopes that he'd shape up, but I don't think so.
Achtung, that was a good insightful post but why is this so evident now? Last year we steamrolled to the league title with hardly a major blip to our name. No-one of major importance left in the summer and Rooney's arguably been more influential on this team now than he was this time last year. Ronaldo is still performing as well as he did last year and we've increased our team consideravly with the likes of Tevez, Hargeaves et al. We talked about more strikers, an holding DM, injury crisis last season but I don't recall leadership/captain's armband being a main problem. I don't think we're understating Gazza's influence but his absence seems to have had a negative effect on the team. So, in your opinion, why is it so prominent now while it wasn't last year?
There's been a few games I recall that Rio was given the armband, but he didn't play very well in those games. As for the off the pitch stuff and his general apparent personality quirks, I don't see him as United Captain material, particularly.
If Rooney is not playing for England, they are not worth 3 minutes of my time. I don't feel that way about United right now, but I always seem to be disappointed when he's not playing. Our play and form can be exciting with some of our players (Ronaldo, Tevez, Saha, Park, Nani, etc.) but we miss Rooney's tenacity and drive when he's out of the lineup. I don't think that necessarily means that our team is shite without Rooney in it, I think it's just a testament as to how much influence he has on our team...
Any team would miss Rooney if he was taken out of it. This is not something ayone should be suprised about. He is quality through and through. But our squad is strong enough to cope without him, espcecially if Tevez is fit. We also have Saha too when he's fit....
Rooney and Ronaldo are very dependable go-to players. People who are always running into space, demanding the ball is passed to them. Paul Scholes is the same, even more so. Our team has a lot of quality in depth, but Scholes, Rooney and Ronaldo are the 3 players who exude this reliability as an outlet more than any other. Take any of them out of the side and the side suffers. Michael Carrick, Anderson, Saha, Carlos Tevez, Evra and, dare I say it, even Ryan Giggs are very good footballers who can be very influential or match-winners on their day, but they're not the players that their team-mates can rely on to move into space and always be willing to receive the ball, and always to something meaningful with it. Rooney and Scholes are and always have been, and Ronaldo has become that in the last 18 months as well. So I wouldn't say our side is average without them. No, I think we have the best team in the league, and these 2 outstanding footballers are the icing on the cake that the cake has grown to depend on. Forgive that last expression, couldn't think of a better way of saying it.
I think I have finally figured it out. We haven't reached top form yet this season is because we have never even once had all of our star offensive players in top form all at once. First I will start with the obvious, Rooney and Ronaldo. I dont think I have ever seen both at top form at once. Its either Rooney scoring loads of goals and carrying the team, taking the pressure and spotlight off of Ronaldo, then getting injured. OR Ronaldo scoring loads of goals while Rooney is having a goal draut/injury(s). This has been the story of out season so far, and very much so last season if I remember correctly. Some say that Ronaldo carried us last season while Rooney had an off season. But while Ronaldo picked up all those awards towards the end while saw his form dramatically drop, Rooney picked his up. This season it was Rooney at the beginning after his first injury scoring loads of goals, and getting injured. Now Ronaldo is etc etc. Which brings me to Tevez. Who has been in consistent decent form, but then again not his top form. Manchester United as a team will reach top form when these 3 players, and especially the first two, start performing like we know they can all at once. Then you have the likes of Giggs, Nani, Saha, Anderson, Carrick Hargreaves and Scholes who need to help everything click and score a few goals here and there. When that happens we will have a T word wining team that all of Europe will be scared off like they did last season after the Roma match. I see out team now going through a bit of a bad patch, scrapping out results/losing... Not the team that scored 4 goals a match with ease. But once we have everyone back, most importantly Scholes and Neville, and keep everyone fit. ROONEY. and pray to god nothing happens to Ronaldo, we will soon I predict hit top form. I cannot see Arse going on like they are for long. They simply do not have the squad for that. Liverpool's rotation I believe will start to pay off, but past poot results will never truley put them in a close title race this season. AAnd Chelsea will be close to breaking apart from injuries/ACN. Although Ballack coming back is helping.
Well, first thing, I don't think we're terribly worse off this year as compared to last. We are several points behind where we were last year, but we have had to do deal with that early blip this time around too. Since the Spurs match in August, we've only dropped eight points in the league. We did have to deal with some more injuries early this season as compared to last. I think the loss of Scholes and Neville is hurting us somewhat, even though Anderson and Brown have been capable stand-ins. Remember that we also hit some blips in December last year too, including a draw at Newcastle, a loss at West Ham, and a narrow win against Reading. Teams tire this time of year and dropping points or not looking like a strong team is common. The main thing is that last year it seemed like there was a different player stepping up every week. Even though Ronaldo was consistent, we had key goals coming from all over the place, and it was pretty amazing because there wasn't the driving force in the team that we'd been used to. It was almost like a car running smoothly and efficiently without a decent engine. In a lot of ways, I still can't explain it. I guess we just had that perfect mix of youth and experience, and managed to keep the key faces healthy until the latter part of the season. Admittedly, I think having a real leader would have helped us in some of our key games, especially against Milan, when we were lacking in organization. There are days when we look like a great team, and days when we look like a great collection of players, but nothing more than that. The latter is when captains really earn their keep.
Said like a true pro. My opinion is that we look much better this year, even if we are a few points off where we were at this point last term. The league is much more competitive this year than last with Man City, Blackburn and Everton all looking good as well as Portmouth and their imperious away form. The recruitment of Anderson and Hargreaves gives our squad a much more solid look and the fact that Carrick, one of last years most important players, cannot hold down a place illustrates this more than anyone else. In attack we are perhaps wanting somewhat with Smith, Solskjaer and Rossi all leaving and only Tevez coming in but Carlos has shown his worth in the last month scoring goals against Liverpool (nice) and Birmingham. Is it just me, or is anyone else a little concerned by Nani's lack of contribution in recent weeks? He's barely played and when he has he's been poor......