Absolutely, selecting only 10 technicians is ridiculously difficult, and many deserving candidates will be left out. My point concerning Alessandro Del Piero is that I think he appears to be much better than he really is, which made him an ideal candidate for the physical mobility vs. innate talent theory/argument. At any rate, I think that top 10 lists are (with al due respect) fundamentally obsolete and out of date, for the same reasons that top 100 lists are outdated and miss the mark entirely; there are just too many important positions on the pitch to reduce the argument - any argument - to just 10 names or 100 names. Having said that, top 10 lists divided into more specific categories e.g. strikers, second strikers, creative midfielders, defensive midfielders, wide defenders, and central defenders, would be an interesting exercise as it would at least try to venture outside of the usual suspects e.g. Zidane, Maradona, Baggio, Bergkamp, Ronaldinho, Del Piero, and so on. As for pre-injury Del Piero... I must admit that I've watched only a handful of games of him. I have, however, watched almost all of his games from season 1999/00, 2000/01, 2002/03, and a few of 2003/04. My general impression of him is that his talent for technique is virtually perfect, but his physique is considerably limited in several ways from a lack of physical strength, to a lack of physical speed, to a lack of physical agility, to a lack of some rather unique awkward physical quality that makes him difficult to defend (e.g. Zidane, Isco, Valderrama, Rivaldo, all players who were athletic in distinctive non-traditional ways, arguably making them more difficult players to defend due to said defining signature), to a lack of participation-rate, etc. Perhaps Del Piero was significantly better in said regards in his pre-injury days, albeit of course I couldn't say myself as I've watched very little of him in those days. At any rate, your comments are always appreciated my friend.
Baggio for sure isn't overlooked. I've seen a few people question his passing, but overall I think many people have him right at the very top. He was sublime. Rivaldo can be overlooked, at times he seemed a bit "awkward" but he's also at or near the top. I haven't seen much of Dinamite, besides goal compilations... and Gullit I see more as a guy that scored an 8 out of 10 in everything but not a 9.5 or 10 in anything in particular (besides his heading which was excellent). For a South American player with quite a bit of footage available, Ricardo Bochini gets overlooked.
@leadleader Del Piero pre-injury was still IMO a case of what could have been, in that, he was only starting to show what he could be capable of. His technique was always there. Then in 1996-97 and 97-98 you can see the burst in acceleration (he had the skill where he would slow down feint the chasing defender to slow down too, then he would accelerate away) but he was never that fast to be honest, in terms of top speed. He was certainly more agile too. With that said, he was improving at an incredible rate (some people believe there was foul play going on at Juve at the time i.e Dr Agricola) and the safe bet is that he would have developed towards that perfect marriage of physical attributes and technique. Against Monaco in 98 he was very involved, had great stamina and basically did it all over the 180 minutes. After his injury, he wouldn't be able to, his natural fitness wouldn't allow.
There is probably an argument to be made that Romario after his leg-brake in 1990 never quite fully recovered the top speed he could reach in his younger days... At any rate, if said claim is true, it just goes to show how great his ball control always was; he reminds me somewhat of Maradona, a short stocky player with glue on his body... In terms of entertainment value, Romario is one of the greatest of all time in my view; you never quite knew what to expect of him... especially when he was faster. Moreover, Romario's lazy nature could be overrated, for example, Romario vs. Netherlands World Cup 1994 was probably one of the players who ran the most or at the very least he wasn't lazy, at any rate, it's difficult to reconcile the harder-working version of Romario with the normally lazy version of Romario, if you've never watched how he normally plays. Meanwhile, Romario vs. Sweden World Cup 1994 (Group Stage) was another game where it's difficult to accuse him of being lazy; Romario vs. AC Milan 1992 was another game where it's difficult to accuse him of being lazy. Overall, I think there's a decent argument to be made that Romario's laziness has a lot more to do with his habit of doing difficult things versus the cynical nature of defending at the time, than it has to do with Romario being inherently lazy; that is, the argument that Romario would've had a rather short career had he attempted to participate more in the average league game.
The Mexican Cuauthemoc Blanco is ridiculously underrated in terms of technique... easily the most two-footed technician I've ever seen, like literally, you could never tell if his next touch on the ball was going to be left or right foot, and this expanded into every area of his game, be that dribbling, ball retention (especially ball retention), even his penalty kicks were also either left or right foot with him running without a fixed angle so the goalkeeper couldn't tell at all if it was going to be a left or right footer. Zinedine Zidane looks right-footed as hell next to Cuauthemoc Blanco, that is how two-footed this player was. Matt Le Tissier level two-footed ability. In terms of elegance and style I think that Balnco was rather similar to a mix between Del Piero and Iniesta, very similar body feints to Iniesta, and very similar ball handling to Del Piero, but I probably enjoy watching Blanco more; I'd argue that Blanco was faster, stronger, and more imaginative on the ball than Del Piero or Iniesta. Then the career-ending tackle in the above video happened... right when Blanco's career was about to take off with a move to La Liga. Speed on the ball -- gone. Agility on the ball -- gone. Strength on the ball -- gone. Stamina on and off the ball -- gone. Cuathemoc Blanco at any point after that career-ending tackle... is a shell of himself, the only thing that remained of him was his ability to come running from 4 yards, without a fixed angle, taking penalty kicks with either left or right foot. But at least he was a vibrant performer at World Cup 1998, Copa America 1999, and the Confederations Cup 1999, before his career as a world class player was cut short in a pointless game vs. Trinidad & Tobago. That is how he shot most if not all of his penalty kicks... running from 4 yards out, right down the middle, without a fixed shooting angle, so that the goalkeeper never knows if it's going to be a left or right footed shot.
Messi also looks lazy at times. Not necessarily for the same reasons as Romario though. He (Romario) always admitted to be a footballer first and an athlete second. He also admitted that he was never a good athlete. He also stated that after he left PSV for Barca he felt like he needn't run any more and that his experience made up for the lack of hard work. That said, he still had speed left in him even in his 30+ age. There are a few matches in his mid 30+ in which you could still see little burst of acceleration. The secret in Romario's later period's game (from Barca onward) that made him look like lazy has always alluded the observer. With experience came better anticipation, came better positioning, and therefore the need for "running" and doing hard work was not necessary in his game, post PSV years. In addition to this, when Romario started at Barca, Cruyff instructed him not to be involved with defending and to focus on scoring. This might have been another factor changing his game (and mindset) completely from being a "speedy" dribbler in the midfield as seen in Vasco (80s) and PSV years to a more in-the-box specialist as seen from his Barca years onward. Romario once told reporters in Holland, that seeming lazy in the pitch was part of his game to deceive defenders. A defender marking him, after 80 minutes would let his guard down in thinking the shorty was not in the game that day. And then suddenly the short guy would throw his defender off with great sudden acceleration and sharpness of mind. The unexpected, the unpredictable. It was a decoy, to appear aloof and absent. To encourage defenders to put off their guard and to preserve his energy for the right moment. To wait for his opponents to make mistakes! He was an opportunist. His success at scoring was down to being so unpredictable. To turn left when most would turn right. To touch the ball gentle into the net when most would kick the ball with full force. To chip it, or volley it when most would power shoot it straight ahead. To do a sombrero or a double sombrero when most would just dribble it past around defender. This unpredictability, and unorthodox style, made him entertaining and always fresh to watch. Hence why his goals are among the most exquisite.
I read some posters in other threads questioning his lack of dribbling speed though. I never felt he was relatively slower to his counterparts. Perhaps he was, but I never noticed it myself. @leadleader
Historically, if not traditionally, there is a general innate difference in the way latin-american players play relative to Europeans. And this might influence the way we rate top 10 or top 100 "technical" players. Being ignorant of this difference in football culture could make a top technical all time list biased. Latin Americans are more inclined to aesthetics and artistry as oppose to European efficiency and end product. Latin American players are entertainers. Europeans wants to get the job done. but perhaps this is more relevant to the classical era and not so much to the modern era
How do you guys rate Magico Gonzalez? He seems very higly rated by the footballers that played in his time. Maradona also respected him a lot. Too bad he didn't fulfill his potential. Like Le Tissier he seemed content with being a small fish in a big pond.
Overall you've seen more of him than me to be fair then surely (by 99/00 I was watching less in the way of Serie A games than previously). It seems to me like at least in certain periods for Juventus in that timescale he was likely in better form and shape than in tournaments like Euro 2000 for example but you'll be able to have a better idea of that (and watching several full games will give a fuller impression than seeing his best highlights of course). I think 2002/03 tends to be picked out as a good season for post-injury Del Piero doesn't it? I wouldn't say those kind of 'weaknesses' were completely absent in his prime either, but the agility would be better I'd say, so that would help him manoeuvre away from players with his skills at times. I think in his earliest 'stand-out' years maybe he was a bit on the fringes of games at times, but could come up with something really special in a flash and change a game. By 97/98, with a more central and integral role, probably he was having a more consistent influence on games even if arguably a lot of his best goals and moments came in preceeding years. You're possibly aware of this (and Carlito posted it on another thread not long ago too) but it's not a bad example I guess - Del Piero vs Sampdoria from 97/98: That channel is good for some top performances by Juve players, albeit I think the videos are in the style of 'the best moments of the game' for the player rather than 'all touches'. There are Laudrup and Platini videos on the channel I remember, plus Scirea but even Praest from way back in time I think. The uploader is a Juventus fan clearly anyway. Here is a Zidane example vs Man Utd from the same 97/98 season (again, could be you've seen this or even the full game already):
In his debut match he volleyed the ball in the upper left corner with his weaker foot Here another one One-touch lob over the goalkeeper inside the penalty area, at 2:00 But it's true in his Barcelona time he had many more assists than goals. 60 official goals (2 pens) and at least 100 assists.
Yeah, it's definitely true that he could excel with technical finishes, and the 'Phantom goal' also showcased the technique and not just the acrobatics, coordination and timing to score it. Plus goals like the one against Belgium where he places the ball in the far corner required the technique to be able to do it (not just awareness and precision - well partly the precision comes from the technique anyway!). I guess his two-footedness relative to Maradona (and I'd say Ronaldinho too I think) might offset the free-kick shooting ability and suchlike and mean 'tying' on 8 out of 10 seems reasonable but like I say I think settling on numbers is a bit arbitrary and indecisive (even if as a set for each player maybe the numbers can give some sort of guide to the thought process).
Yes he has only a few free kicks in his career. Some of them are captured on tape, like the well-taken one in the corner against champions Atletico Madrid.
Yeah I guess I'll have seen that (certainly if on the goals video released with most of the captured ones on it). I've noticed that once or twice he scored with a kind of poked shot (similar technique to Beckenbauer in the same era actually isn't it....), and I think he had some more attempts with that kind of free-kick including in the World Cup IIRC. I've seen him score goals into the corner with some curl (for example for Dutch clubs both before he left for Spain, and after he returned in the 80s), but I'm not sure to what extent he tried that sort of technique on free-kicks (it is a bit different doing it in open play I suppose, in terms of the trajectory etc, as well as open play situations being more dynamic). Probably he wasn't a prolific taker of shots on goal from free-kicks anyway (certainly from wide angles he'd more often put a cross in I think wouldn't he - sometimes with the same sort of poked technique with the front/outside of the boot).
Did Zidane ever produced accurate through balls and crosses like Maradona? Also I want to see compilations of Hoddle who's so highly rated
Crosses, yes (I guess they each have their own style and characteristics but comparable quality, and even really good with his left footed crosses). There is an assist on the video I posted in post 85 earlier, higher up on this page actually vs Manchester United, with a precision cross. And some more good ones on here for example (second half of the video is the assists): I think technically speaking his passing was generally very good in terms of spreading the ball around, even though he's not an 'assist king' kind of player in general it's fair to say I guess (although his rate per game in the CL is about as good as anyone's I believe). This came to mind for an example with generally skilful passing, and also moments like at 5:49 as well as the cushioned assist soon after: For a spectacular assist with great technique and measurement this one at 5:30 came to mind: I guess it's better to post any Hoddle videos in a new post shortly, rather than in this one.
(3:05 for example) (3:40 for example) There are a few compilations that maybe can help too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gGLooIP5gdU&t=195s Bergkamp talked of being in awe of the way Hoddle used to control the ball out of the air etc too, so he had some sort of influence on Dennis's approach to that side of the game even maybe. The 1981 FA Cup Final replay is perhaps a decent game to watch in full to see him playing in.
I have a fundamental question to ask about the "passing technique" category, because as I understand it, Zidane is a comprehensively inferior passer to a lot of these technical players... I mean, honestly, I think it's reasonably demonstrable that Zidane is a categorically inferior passer to Ronaldinho, Hagi, Maradona, Messi, Valderrama, Totti, Pirlo, Laudrup, Riquelme, Xavi, Bergkamp, Baggio, Figo, Beckham, etc. Zidane was a fairly accurate crosser of the ball and could deliver accurate short passes on the run, but in essence, it is his ability on the ball - ball retention and dribbling - that largely pre-assists his passing ability, but his passing ability when measured as an ability in its own right is in my opinion demonstrably inferior; him being two-footed is not a significant enough advantage that it can compensate for the fact that he lacked creativity when passing in situations where his dribbling ability and/or ball retention ability had not yet facilitated the opening for the pass. Similar, one might as well ask the question: How many assists does Zidane have for Thierry Henry after Euro 2000, Euro 2004, and World Cup 2006? If I'm not mistaken only 1 assist from Zidane to Henry, and said 1 assist came from a free kick (not to mention that the assist itself was largely assisted by the fact that Roberto Carlos was too busy tying his shoe laces, that he couldn't even defend what should've been a routinely easy situation to defend, especially against Henry, a player who is not good in the air and ergo is not good at scoring goals that are assisted by free kicks), it was not an open play assist as one would rather naturally expect from a player as creative in terms of open play as Zidane was. Overall, I would probably rate Zidane as a top 5 all timer, if for one second I genuinely believed that Zidane was as good as Hagi in terms of passing the ball... but again, I think that Zidane is a distinctly one-dimensional passer who can efficiently hide said limitation because he is so spectacularly gifted on the ball, so much so that the fans are more than willing to turn a blind eye, and not to mention, that Zidane's ratio of open play assists isn't bad or unimpressive; of course my point is that it is primarily assisted by Zidane's ability on the ball, not by Zidane's actual passing ability (in and of itself). Zidane in my view is not the type of player who can turn a match on its head purely on the basis of creating a genius assist out of virtually nothing; that is something that I can say about Ronaldinho or Hagi or Pirlo, but not something I can in good conscience say about Zidane or Isco; genius ball retention experts who rarely or simply never consistently demonstrate the passing creativity of a player like James Rodriguez, for example. On a somewhat different note, however, I'd argue that what Zidane did better than Hagi in terms of passing ability, was to dictate the tempo in the midfield with his underrated activity off-the-ball as it complemented with his short passing game, which itself was primarily assisted by Zidane's genius ball retention ability; it was Zidane's ball retention ability and his (I presume) intuitive understanding or feel for space, when to know where space is going to close down, and react creatively before it does close, etc. Actually remarkably similar to the fundamental characteristics that defined the short passing playmaking style of the Colombian maestro Carlos Valderrama; well except that Valderrama was also equally masterful in terms of delivering the occasional defence splitting final ball i.e. assists out of virtually nothing... which is I'd argue where Zidane notably lags behind when compared to many of these 'technicians' type players. At any rate, I include the type of passing of Zidane/Valderrama as part of the ball retention branch, not necessarily as part of the passing branch, which I think adequately explains where I'm coming from with my comments about Zidane. Furthermore, I'd be open to the idea of dividing passing into at least 2 categories; (a) midfield passing, and (b) out of nothing passing. For example, Valderrama was more or less equally skillful at either one of said 2 categories of passing, whereas with Zidane I think he was only great at midfield passing, at crossing, but falls behind in terms of delivering a genius not-a-cross-assist when there is no available space on the pitch. Meanwhile, Hagi was better at both crossing and at out of nothing passing, but was inferior (by whatever margin) to Zidane in terms of midfield passing.
Yeah, in essence I've been trying to separate the technical qualities for passing the ball from the regularity a player would use inspired passes and improvise creative assists etc etc (as hard as it is to do). For example whatever angled passes Cruyff could come up with would be judged technically speaking but not for the idea/vision or even timing (even though in a general 'best passers' discussion those things would be relevant). Perhaps 9 out of 10 could be too generous for Zidane, but IMO at least not way too high, from a technical viewpoint (to be fair he could produce some really nice and cute little passes and assists too, but yeah I can see what leadleader means again).
@PDG1978 I edited my post to include the distinction below. Hopefully it better explains my point of view. EDIT On a somewhat different note, however, I'd argue that what Zidane did better than Gheorghe Hagi for example, was to dictate the tempo in the midfield with his underrated activity off-the-ball as it complemented with his short passing game, which itself was primarily assisted by Zidane's genius ball retention ability; it was Zidane's ball retention ability and his (I presume) intuitive understanding or feel for space, when to know where space is going to close down, and react creatively before it does close, etc. Actually, I'd argue that Zidane's midfield passing game is remarkably similar to the fundamental characteristics that defined the short passing playmaking style of the Colombian maestro Carlos Valderrama; albeit I'd also argue that Valderrama was more or less equally masterful in terms of delivering the occasional defence splitting final ball i.e. assists out of virtually nothing... which is I'd argue where Zidane notably lags behind when compared to many of these 'technicians' type players. At any rate, I include the type of passing of Zidane/Valderrama as part of the ball retention branch, not necessarily as part of the passing branch, which I think adequately explains where I'm coming from with my comments about Zidane. Furthermore, I'd be open to the idea of dividing passing into at least 2 categories; (a) midfield passing, and (b) out of nothing passing. For example, Valderrama was more or less equally skillful at either one of said 2 categories of passing, whereas with Zidane I think he was only great at midfield passing, at crossing, but falls behind in terms of delivering a genius not-a-cross-assist when there is no available space on the pitch. Meanwhile, Hagi was better at both crossing and at out of nothing passing, but was inferior (by whatever the margin) to Zidane in terms of midfield passing.
Yeah, makes sense to me. I'd say both types of passes can be considered here but from a technical perspective rather than a tactical or creative one (while in effect players can excel with 'better' passes in quality and/or quantity than others players, due to superior capability to spot opportunities to pass or being able to deliver passes quickly or perhaps because they can open up angles to pass or whatever - I think none of this is really about the technical passing capabilities). I'd say all these things would be slightly different: a) Creativity overall (including things like ideas about moving the ball into good positions to play team-mates in or dribble past opponents, dummies and backheels etc etc) b) Passing and vision c) Passing effectiveness (and quality of the passing whatever the reason, including but not limited to technical reasons, and factoring in vision in the sense that better passes can be delivered because of it) d) Passing technique (method/skill combination) The ball retention/distribution vs final ball passing would be a separate distinction, but a), b), c) and d) above could be applied to both categories, and I'm thinking it is just d) we are interested in for this thread really.
Going back to Hoddle (and Maradona) I remembered that Ossie Ardiles had said that Hoddle was like Maradona without pace: https://www.skysports.com/more-sports/news/13871/5491907/hod-was-like-god (while stating at that point in his eyes Maradona was the best ever)
I don't see Baggio as a better passer then Zidane. In his late years with Brescia he developed more into a creator and improved his passing but not better tgen Zizou.
What a daunting task. But here are my two cents.....and it is a very personal view Dribbling: Zico Passing: Zico Ball control: similar One on one situations: similar Shooting: Romario Trap: Romario Header/Aerial game: Romario Touch: Romario Freekicks: Zico Positioning: Romario Vision: Zico Anticipation: Romario reading the game: similar (but perhaps Zico edges it?) One-two play and being part in the offensive build up: similar Speed/acceleration/turns: Romario Agility: similar On a different note, If technique is exclusive in this discussion and we would expand further to include players who are, arguably, in the same tier, than in my opinion Van Basten, Bergkamp. Baggio. Romario, Zico, R9, RIvaldo, Ronaldinho are in the same tier technically. Of course, each has a different style and played in a different position e.g forward vs midfielder. And, while one might be better in a specific category than the other, more or less, they all display the same technical quality, overall. Out of the bunch above, Romario, Bergkamp, Baggio and Zico were the less physical/athletic and rather more reliant on technique compared to the others. If I were to place each of these players on a spectrum of technical to physical, showing reliance on technique vs athleticism, I think it would look like this: Technical<---------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------->Physical Romario, Zico, Baggio, Bergkamp-------Van Basten, Ronaldinho, Rivaldo --------R9 The guys in the middle of the spectrum seemed to me to posses both qualities (technique and athleticism). R9 was the more reliant on power and speed rather than technique, it doesn't mean that he wasn't technical, it only shows that his game relied on power more than the other guys on this spectrum.