I don't know mate - this reply reads a little bit 'one sided' to me, as if you were being paid to write a paragraph arguing against R9 lol (I'm not suggesting that you are obviously, and would be surprised!). Almost as if the conclusion is decided and then the words are added to reach it (maybe it's not your intention for it to read like that though, and maybe lots of us myself included can write some posts that also read like that about other players at times). I don't want to get involved in any argument about it anyway. I think when I tried to name a potential top 100 favourite players he wasn't actually in that list, although I probably tried to limit the number of great players to an extent, and it would be true to say I can enjoy watching him dribble in full flow, and some of his tricky ball skills that he particularly used at Inter Milan it seems. I just replied to AgentofR9 when he asked me a question, but am not looking for any debate about it really. Of course you will be entitled to give a reply to this though. I think poacher is stretching things though, to describe his Barcelona version. He scored more solo goals that season than most players do in a single season. Maybe Stan Collymore scored a similar number (and quite a few less goals overall) in 94/95 and he's thought of as a soloist more than poacher (although he did get a few tap ins too). It's true that those players did provide well for him though; Figo in particular was good at playing balls through (as was eg De La Pena too, and Guardiola I suppose), as well as crosses (albeit I would say heading wasn't a speciality of R9 despite that I see he scored quite a few when still playing in Brazilian club football - I think his goals from that time were posted on a thread not too long ago actually), and Stoichkov did get around the back and set up a few for him too I think didn't he, but I'd say too that even when he made use of a good assist it was often that he still had something to do. Maybe for whatever reason it was always likely he'd pick up injury problems (I don't know for sure, and sometimes for a player the first issue can be random bad luck or due to fatigue from playing too much or occur because of a bad foul, and then things snowball from there - Michael Owen, Marco van Basten, Roberto Baggio....), but I'd say that shouldn't detract from how he could play when not injured, and in this particular case how he could dribble when in his best condition and phase of career (not that he couldn't dribble at all or use some ball skills when he came back from his long injury break to play for Brazil in the World Cup and then Real Madrid).
This reads even more like an anti-Ronaldo post IMHO, than the one I replied to. It doesn't seem credible that he'd be 'destroyed' playing in England and suchlike (if he'd moved there for Barca). Stan Collymore that I mentioned did have a short time as a top Premier League striker, and he might have been slightly similar to Ronaldo, but surely not as good. I don't think physique beats technique necessarily in midfield either myself (not to say players such as Vieira only have physique and no technique). Anyway, sorry I said I didn't want to argue (and normally don't), but yeah I do feel you are being too one-eyed about this, and it seems a bit extreme to me anyway (you're entitled to think what you genuinely think though, including that De Bruyne is the GOAT!).
Let's remember as well that Ronaldo was UEFA Club Footballer of the Year for 97/98, and that Maradona might have had even less solo goals involving dribbling than he did in his career.
That’s what I disagree on. He was the highest rated attacker by those defenders because prior to his Inter days, he was on pace to be the most prolific goalscorer of all time. But if you watch his matches, he wasn’t actually impactful as a dribbler. In most of the matches that he played against the higher ranked teams in his division, he was pocketed. For example, in La Liga, he was rarely able to get past Hierro or Puyol but always scored a tap in or header for everyone to remember him as a big game player. The same happened when he played against the top Serie A clubs like Milan (Maldini & Desailly), Lazio (Nesta) and Juventus (Cannavaro). For me, if you want to be considered a top dribbler, you need to get past the top defenders in your division at least.
Thanks for replying. First and foremost I will admit that I am not a fan of Ronaldo. I just never rated him ability wise and the fact that he won 4 FIFA World Player of the year awards whereas Henry won nothing left a bad taste in my mouth. Though objectively speaking, I just don’t think it’s reasonable to Ronaldo in these lists. He technically had only 1 prominent season (97/98) as a dribbler, and that was the one that marked his downfall as an effective goal contributor. I also don’t like how in everyone’s list, they hardly have any Premier League legends. To me, it is most difficult to dribble in this division because not only is it considered the highest level in Europe, the players are most physically gifted. To be able to be a top dribbler here takes a special kind of ability. I think guys like Man United Cristiano (who I despise) deserve to be on here. Even Henry & Liverpool form Owen should get a shout over Ronaldo.
Thanks mate for a polite reply anyway. I've given you a rep for that, as given I'd been perhaps more forthright than usual in my own reply, you could have escalated things into a more aggressive tone easily, and didn't. I would say though that I don't really see it the same (which is fine and it doesn't mean I have to be correct and you incorrect), and if we go back to young Ronaldo's time then in some respects the Premier League was easier to play in for players that liked to drop into space between midfield and attack, so playing the way he did at Inter would I guess be a bit easier and more fruitful for him in England instead. He's not really akin to a Bergkamp, Zola, Cantona (who did all thrive when coming to England), but he could use the space afforded in his own way. Of course there were players like Keane, and an emerging Gerrard and suchlike (Vieira too indeed) that would make his life difficult at times, but from a tactical point of view English football was a bit more open (even though Serie A had begun to become a little bit more expansive and attacking than it had been), and man marking was rarer, and cynical fouling was probably rarer too (albeit some hard tackling, bordering on foul play certainly occured, and let's say Keown and Adams at Arsenal would not make it easy - but considering for example how Shevchenko could play for Dynamo Kiev vs Arsenal, it's easy to think Ronaldo would thrive against them using his skills and pace I feel). I wouldn't go as far as you in the direction of only one season as dribbler as such because he still did dribble well at Barcelona (a little bit at PSV too I think) I'd say, but he just came to get the ball in deep areas less (to be honest as well Spanish defenders could sometimes be more aggressive than Italian ones even, in terms of actual brutality). And I'd say he was still an effective scorer at Inter (especially given playing as a 9 and a half if we call it that), but just not as prolific as he had been. He still got a number of impressive and important UEFA Cup goals too in 97/98 of course.
I think it's just the 3 actually isn't it, 1996, 1997 and 2002. I'd think the 2002 one would be the most questionable (if thinking of the award as player of the whole year, but often with these awards a high profile major tournament can take precedence, and I suppose his comeback story was compelling for voters too). Albeit in 1996 he didn't win the Ballon d'Or (finishing one point behind Sammer, whose win could be questioned too though as perhaps being too dependent on Euro 96 and/or because his best club form had probably come before 1996 in general), and his case would be based mostly on the second half of that calendar year I guess, after he'd signed for Barcelona. Funnily enough I guess Henry did have a case as contender to win in about as many years (but different ones of course). If you ask me who I think was a better individualist and dribbler purely in this century I would say Henry over Ronaldo too by the way, but I just feel Ronaldo was better at his peak in the previous century. As an overall player/striker in this century only probably Henry too, but in his best form/shape Ronaldo might be close to him at least (he did do pretty/very well at Real Madrid for a while didn't he?).
For me Ronaldo was the winner in 1998 as well considering he was voted best player at every tournament he played in. Although I disagree, I think if we're talking about strikers, Shearer was better than him in 1996 and 1997 considering he had 38 and 25 goal contributions respectively while playing for a weak team. While in 1998, Owen outperformed him. Had less support than Ronaldo while playing in a stronger division, yet only managed 4 less goal contributions. I guess there are players who thrived in England but failed in Italy, but there are also cases for vice-versa. For example, Shevchenko, Veron, Higuain, Maicon & Weah all failed after joining the Prem while at the peak of their powers. The general consensus seems to be that Italy is more about tactics and tight marking whereas England is about speed, physicality and talent. And considering Ronaldo suffered a career threatening injury while playing in Italy, I really think he would survive in a more aggressive PL.
Shevchenko and Weah weren't at their peaks I'd say (maybe they'd still not been too far away in prior Serie A seasons at times, but they were on the downside of their peak capabilities and Weah wouldn't have arrived otherwise I think, while Shevchenko had an injury before World Cup 2006 and his fitness was never great in England and obviously when he went back to play for Milan again it was evident he wasn't the same, albeit he had his moments in Euro 2012 later). Higuain I'm not sure exactly (he had been shortly before in Serie A I guess, but it wasn't the Serie A of the past). I think at his peak actually Shevchenko might have been a bit of a hybrid between Shearer and Ronaldo (not to say as good as either at what they excelled at the most, but somewhat close, although maybe more like Ronaldo in his first peak at Kiev and when he first went to Milan, and a bit more akin to Shearer in his second peak in which he got a Ballon d'Or - having gained a bit of power in his shots and lost a bit of mobility and agility in dribbling I think). I wouldn't say Shevchenko could never have done great in England, but I wouldn't say Bergkamp could never have been great in Italy either (but clearly going to Inter Milan at that time didn't suit him too well).
I think I don't want to drag my contributions on too much now to be honest (AgentofR9 can defend his client if he wants instead maybe lol!), but I'd say with the major individual awards being calendar year based (except several domestic league ones, but I mean the Ballon d'Or and FIFA award and suchlike), that Shearer would be out of the question for 1997. Bergkamp would be a better alternative option from the Premier League I'd think, but Ronaldo had part of his Barcelona season (albeit a lot of his best form and most of his individual goals did occur in 1996 didn't they), the summer tournaments with Brazil, and the start to his Inter career, and it seems he was thought of as an obvious choice (not to say you can't disagree of course). Whether he was slightly over-hyped and a Figo slightly under-hyped for example? Possibly so, but he still did quite a bit over the year for the teams he played for combined. Shearer for 1996 could be one of the options, I would agree on that, among a few of which maybe there wasn't a clear number 1 (but Ronaldo in his best spells perhaps seemed like it, although having not had an injury free end to his PSV career at the start of the year I believe). I would add though that Henry didn't have a really huge amount of solo dribble goals in his career (or a load in one season), and Owen even less so I suppose. Maybe no player really has a big amount of them, albeit there are cases like for Paulo Futre where it's the opposite scenario and we can end up thinking "he did have quite a lot didn't he?!" with the help of Youtube now, not to say that means necessarily I think I have him too low and Maradona/Ronaldo too high as a dribbling talent overall, in an estimated list (where I had Futre on the fringes of the top 20 as my estimation at the last attempt).
Id think in his peak TH14 averaged around 3 individual dribbling/solo run goals Thats alot if you ask me For 2003/04 Liverpool(past hyppia,past carragher...what a goal by Thierry Henry) Inter Milan(the length of the pitch solo run where he took zanetti inside and then out before finishing emphatically) The poker goal against Leeds where he picked up the goal in midfield There could be more although my memory could be failing me The solo run goal against spurs was in 2002/03 Right? 3-4 individual goals in one campaign is generally alot more then top level CFs manage (Lewandowski,van basten,shevchenco arguably did not do this at entire spells at clubs) The only ones that could really surpass this in Europe are Ronaldo 1996/97 Crisitiano Ronaldo 2009/10 Lionel messi 2009/10 Lionel messi 2011/12 CR7 in 2013/14 is a bit underrated for this too 1 solo goal vs Galatasary(maybe his best technically?) 2 solo goals vs schalke(home and away) 2 solo goals vs Rayo vallencano(home and away) The second solo goal vs Rayo vallencano doesn't get talked about enough IMO Id say Diego Maradona 1982/83 is a bit underrated for this aswell The copa del rey final goal against real Madrid The solo chip goal against red star Belgrade Are ones i can remember but there are a few more The thing with Diego which nobody likes to admit In top physical condition he was as capable as nearly any player at solo runs leading to a shot on goal His finishing however was generally always indifferent Maradona didn't really lack anything to put on a marquee solo goal season like R9 96/97 except finishing In a way its to be expected One was a natural born finisher while the other was not This shows roughly 60-70 of those shots on goal for Barcelona Great inventiveness for some of those 'nearly goals' but generally underwhelming finishing Maybe you can calculate Paulo futres single season highest tally for dribbling goals? The max id think a player could have is 10(Lionel messi in 2011/12 i calculated recently) Both Ronaldos in their best season around the 7 or 8 goal mark Top level generational CFs at their best like Luis Suarez 2013/14 and TH14 2003/04 around 4 Others like Harry kane,Lewandowski,shearer,Rvn,Cavani could go entire spells at clubs with 1 or 2 The one of zlatan against Nac Breda in 2003/04 is legendary and arguably propelled him into the spotlight that he has never since left After this for Inter,Milan,PSG and Juventus im not sure he had more then 3 solo goals in total(bearing in mind 2004 was 17 years ago)
Yeah, it's all relative, but I was meaning the amount Ronaldo Nazario got over his career and/or in one season (you did mention 96/97 of course above Carlito I see) wasn't really on the low side, even though he became a different player than he used to be after the comeback, to an extent (I guess it depends where the line is drawn on solo dribble goal in terms of how many Real Madrid goals he scored could be added, but as long as the standard is the same for any players we compare that's ok I guess). But by extension, the number Henry scored, would also not be particularly on the low side (but he wasn't scoring them every other week or something, to put him in a different category in that respect to Ronaldo, over career, or comparing one season to 96/97). The main point I suppose being it's not easy to do a lot of times (to some extent depending on rules of the era re: punishment of fouls, and also on level of the competition and opposition teams). I would say as well that most players could have more close efforts that didn't result in goals after an impressive dribble than actual dribble goals (even for Messi - some of his most impressive dribbles didn't result in goals I'd say too), although there will be variation in terms of how well players can take advantage of having made themselves a chance via dribbling. For many players there could be more assists after great dribbling, or at least going past or around one or two players, than solo goals too (not sure this applies to Ronaldo Nazario, but it might be close perhaps?). And likewise there are 'chances created' that get missed after a player dribbles and sets up an opportunity.
Like I say I think it depends on the cut-off for solo dribble goal criteria, but I'd say Carlito if you name all those from 2013/14 then Van Basten (at least for Ajax) and Shevchenko at AC Milan (while all goals are probably not available from his Dynamo Kiev time so it's harder to verify), would pass or at minimum about equal what you had for Henry in 2003/04 (you doubted they'd have as many at one club over all seasons I noticed). That said, there's another by Henry that comes to mind (vs Wolves I think) that would qualify too possibly for example from 03/04. For solo goals within a 2/3 calendar year period, I'd think George Weah is up there somewhere by the way (94/95 to early 96/97). I've not tried to assign all of Futre's Atletico Madrid ones to a particular season myself as yet anyway, so I'm not quite sure what his maximum would be on a one season basis.
There is actually an Henry vs Wolves video for the game I'm thinking of I see now - the goal is at 8:05, but maybe it's a good game for a prime example of Henry dribbling (and playing well) in general: Thierry Henry vs Wolves PL 2003/04 (Masterclass) - YouTube Here are Shevchenko's Milan goals and I was thinking that as well as for example famous goals like number 58 vs Juventus, there are ones like number 72 vs Lecce that would count (I assume Champions League ones are on here too, since it doesn't say Serie A only but I just searched for ones I'd thought of...but have in mind too some vs Lazio, both in 99/00 and 03/04 or a season later, and one vs Bari in 99/00 for example too, hence the confidence in the statement about the total amount, for clarification...but that's not to say I think he enters the equation for a single season, as much as Henry himself even): Andriy Shevchenko ●7● AC MILAN | ALL GOALS | THE LEGEND - YouTube
I wasn't intending to mention all of them for Shevchenko at Milan (let alone the ones for Dynamo Kiev including the one that was perhaps the best of his career in the Ukrainian Cup Final I think), but I think this one vs Udinese was more in mind than the one I picked out vs Lecce actually, before I had a quick browse through that video: Shevchenko vs Udinese - YouTube I guess it's on the video above too that I posted anyway of course (and like I say any Champions League ones - one vs Porto comes to mind but it'd be in borderline territory perhaps and more of a dropping of the shoulder than pure dribbling probably), but highlighting it now does make it even a bit clearer he probably has more at AC Milan overall than Henry had in a single Arsenal season (not that that is an even comparison of course, but I just mention it as Carlito suspected otherwise earlier). Maybe with the ones just getting the ball past one defender before scoring being permitted Van Basten could say the same for his AC Milan period, but like I said I'm sure he could for the Ajax period before it anyway.
I wouldn't say he was pocketed, maybe he didn't make as many dribbles compared to an ordinary match, but he certainly left his presence felt. I'm sure you can find videos of him dribbling the top defenders in his division honestly.
Yeah Ronaldo had some damn good performances for us from 2002-2005. It was impressive, but I always had the feeling that he wasn't as hardworking or disciplined compared to his past spells at Barcelona and Inter. Given the amount of talent and support that was surrounding him in attack, he could've hit 40+ goals if he was consistently in form. Real Madrid were a flawed team because they lacked balance following the departures of Redondo, Makelele and Hierro, but in my opinion a talent like Ronaldo had the ability to lead the team to the CL even with those issues. I remember when he came back in 2001/02 following a 2 year break from injury. He did change his style, was less of an explosive dribbler and played more conservatively, but he was still the leader of the team by linking up the attack and beating opponents in close distance. And he followed it up at the World Cup, but maybe he became satisfied afterward cuz he seemed to take less responsibility.
@PDG1978 Solo goal definition Dribble past minimum one player before scoring And/Or Carry the ball 30 or more yards without being intercepted/passing the ball before scoring 2009/10 0:46 1:10 2:28 4:31 4:52 5:24 6:24 Total: 7 solo goals 2010/11 7:34 10:10 12:14 13:11 15:29 Total 5 solo goals 2011/12 17:24 19:47 25:12 Total: 3 solo goals 2012/13 26:25 27:04 30:56 31:49 32:28 Total 5 solo goals 2013/14 36:39 38:54 41:32 42:34 43:05 Total 5 solo goals 2014/15 47:37 Total 1 solo goal 2015/16 58:52 59:11 59:28 Total 3 solo goals 2016/17 1:04:58 Total 1 solo goal 2017/18 1:10:28 Total 1 solo goal 31 solo goals for real Madrid
I don't really want to verify mate (but am replying because you tagged me - I guess because I was hinting I was unsure of definition). I'd possibly question the and/or in terms of the second criteria though - for me a dribbling solo goal (relevant for this thread) should involve going past or around at least one player, although I guess a wider running with the ball solo goal category would add significantly more for a few players (Eusebio comes to mind, although he'd have some that qualify as dribbling solo goals for sure anyway too). It could be borderline sometimes whether a goal really involves dribbling I suppose too. Obviously a solo goal definition could even be taken further in general, to include long range shots, technical skills and tricks to make room for a shot where there wasn't any before, and things like that. But I was thinking, as far as this thread goes, we'd stick to dribbling solo goals.
As in OPTA definition of dribble? The 'dribbling' goals of R9 1996/97 would be negligible according to this criteria The ones vs Valencia 1996 are IMO closer to solo runs( a la Gareth bale vs inter Milan 2010 or Henry vs leeds 2004) I do agree widening the criteria but not to the extent of including goals from outside the box(with minimal to no existent dribbling) Otherwise wed get someone like Steven Gerrard ahead of Diego Maradona and that wouldn't look right
Lionel Messi World Cup + Copa America games played: 53 Solo goals: 1 lateral sideways take on (Vs Bosnia 2014) 0.018 lateral sideways take on goals per game 0 progressive forward take on goals per game
Top 10 in my mind, at this moment: (1) Roberto Baggio: Superb balance, very creative, threatening, and ambidextrous, with his dribbling. Excellent ball control, high football IQ, good under pressure, and he just had a passion for the game. This man brought his national team, to World Cup championships, due to his creativity, dribbling prowess, and overall offensive threat. It is something that Messi did not achieve. Overall, the best dribbler I have ever seen, a legend. (2) Maradona: Again, excellent balance. Very creative, threatening, strong, tactical mind, good under pressure, excellent ball control, had passion for the game. (He favored his left foot though, yet defender's still couldn't pin him down). Nevertheless, this man was badass, an extremely dangerous dribbler. Again, he brought his national team, to World Cup championships, due to his creativity, dribbling prowess, and overall offensive threat. A legend, no doubt. (3) Ronaldinho: The most exciting, with the most style and flair. Add his great acceleration, good coordination, and ambidextrous feet, a lethal threat. He was also strong, and very deceptive with his body movements. His elastico's broke defender's necks, his feints were dangerous, then he would speed off like a Ferrari. A legend. (4) Ronaldo (R9): The only man that I've seen, do full-speed elastico's, against great defenders like Nesta. Ronaldinho did elastico's jogging, but it is much harder to do them sprinting. In his prime, this guy was quick-footed, fast, strong, deceptive, ambidextrous, and very dangerous off of the dribble. A legend. (5) Ricardo Quaresma: He is just a natural phenom, born for the game. Excellent coordination, ambidextrous dribbler. Unpredictable, great ball control, quick, strong, etc. Also very creative, very fun to watch. (6) Ariel Ortega: An excellent dribbler. Superb feints, Gambeta's, ambidextrous, quick in his prime, tactical mind, great balance, a very dangerous man, off of the dribble. (7) Lionel Messi: Great dribbler, great ball control, good in tight spaces, ambidextrous, hard to predict. Penetrates the defense with his dribbling runs, then passes or shoots, it truly frustrates the defense. (8) Nwankwo Kanu: Silky ball control, sublime in action, very unpredictable and dangerous off of the dribble. Tactical mind, great ball control, a legend. (9) George Best: Excellent ball control, unpredictable, extremely talented, quick in his prime, an original, that had a huge influence on the game. A legend. (10) Zidane: Not as purely, "on the ground", as a dribbler, compared to the others. He did more hybrid stuff, where he mixed his dribbling with passing. However, when he displayed his dribbling skills, they were amazing. His moves, they would come out of nowhere, (roulettes, stepovers, sharp cuts, etc). His excellent ball control, unpredictable nature, ambidextrous feet, etc, etc. He's a legend, no doubt.
Pelé probably registered the best proportion of beautiful solo goals while in his peak, Garrincha was probably the most effective dribbler in all history (he made the same moves again and again and could impact whatever match even the top ones with it), George Best (legendary by his agility, acceleration and ball control, won many things and titles being a dribbling machine, also is known for it), Maradona (one of the most skillers, excellent ball control and good ball retention and explosion), R9 (always a threat running with the ball, the most direct and probably with the most gravity while in his peak), Messi (the best of his generation, excellent ball control while running and short dribbling) and others. Cruyff excellent acceleration and top speed, know for his progressive dribbling and playmaking while running. Between Dribbling, Ball Carrying and threat: 1- Garrincha 2- R9 3- George Best 4- Messi 5- Cruyff 6- Pelé 7- Maradona