More Ball control than this? He knocked the ball where he wanted then scored This is an old video also, doesn't even show his work in the late 90s and early 2000
Plus... if we're talking about the world of football the best dribbler makes his living off the grass pitch anyways
that ? ,.,... and your name should be popped up on top of that list ... especially with Messi/Barca topics LOL I just put up examples in R9 with his "trademark" moves against TOP CLASS DF (in his time and ALL TIME) which Messi lacked off (but turned to his ADVANTAGE) - Yet I still rated Maradona/Garrincha and Pele as "better dribblers" than R9 - as they were more consistent (blamed on R9 injuries and his "fat" decease) Losing the ball during dribbling (or failure to pass) is VERY MISLEADING if we are BLINDLY using STATS. 1- R9 (or Pele Maradona Cruijff ..) often dribble STRAIGHT PASS DF with the INTENTION to get into the box - so ofcourse they will have more "blockings" from opponents in interception as normal (otherwise they will score solo goals like crazy?) This is more difficult and tolerable in "losing the ball" than if we compare to the likes Zidane, Iniesta Sorates .... as they use dribble to KEEP the ball and then PASSING 2- Same with "successful pass %" in STATS. It's a bit misleading if we compare Ronaldinho/Maradona/Zico's ... "risky pass" (to bend over the DF, or to reach his striker in a danger zone) to the likes Xavi, Valderama or Pirlo ... with simple passing (just to reach any team mates nearby) ========================================================= Last and not least, yes dribbling successful rate or scoring goals rate are the same at the END result. However if I have to choose between: 1- PLayer A pass 2,3 DF with simple dropping shoulder, vs player B passing 2,3 DF with "technical moves" - PLAYER B 2- Player A scored 1 simple (tapping or close in shot) vs Player B scored with a volley or deadly precised shot - PLAYER B WHY SO? because Football is an ART type of Sports, not just a battle field (where whoever succeed by ANY MEANS is counted ) That SIMPLE RULE sometimes is just difficult for some DENIALS to understand!
LOL indeed, nice try but your name will be well before my name even shows up on any such list. You are the all-time great on such list, so to speak. James, are you aware that dribbling ability is more than just beating a defender or multiple defenders? Honest question....And need I remind you again that I'm saying Messi is one of the best dribblers, not that he is the best dribbler of all time? "One of the best dribblers" means that I think there are/were other great dribblers like Ronaldo R9, like Maradona, like Garrincha, etc. I'll say it again, to compare dribblers, means we have to compare players (defenders specifically) they faced against, which in turn means we have to get deeper into comparing different eras.....and we know where all that leads to.....it becomes a different discussion altogether. It's pointless. To rate dribbling ability means to look at different aspects/elements/types of dribbling. By your own admission in posts on previous pages, you rate Messi highly in most of them. The only thing I will admit and say is that he doesn't use tricks/moves or more specifically fancy tricks/moves (step overs, elasticos, 360 turn, etc.) like some other past great players used or became known for. Whether he knows and can do those tricks or not is irrelevant. The fact is he doesn't need them as his other elements are so great - ball control, technique, timing, spatial awareness, agility, quickness, fakes. Other great dribblers may have had or used more tricks/moves but they didn't necessarily have some of the other qualities Messi has or to the same level he has them. If you rate Maradona, Garrincha and Pele as better dribblers than Ronaldo because they were more consistent, then you should rate Messi higher too because he is more consistent than all of them. Did Garrincha and Pele play against better defenders than Ronaldo R9 or Messi? Speaking of Garrincha, was Jairzinho any less of dribbler than him? To conclude, there have been many great dribblers and I don't mean just in terms of beating defenders - single or multiple. It's just as hard (and impossible) to determine the best dribbler of all as it to determine the best player overall of all-time. But for me certain players stand out - Maradona, Garrincha, Ronaldo, Pele, Ronaldinho, Best, Jairzinho - and Messi is one of them too. You know, simplicity and effectiveness is an art too.....
Well first of all, this topic was about "best dribbler" and some had nominated messi for that. Thence I came and expressed my opinion - and you were among who replied with BS word). I am not sure messi was "morre consistent" than ALL (who?) - more than R9 yes (blamed on his short peak) but not more than Pele Garrincha and arguably Maradona ... in term of consistency. In fact I can tell you Pele Garrincha did more dribbles runs than Messi could ever or shall accumulate .. Jairzinho was like Garicnha in his worse form ... Jairzinho had always looked up and tried to be a new Garrincha ... BTW that's says a lot. IMO Garrincha was #1, while Jaizinho would be lucky to be in TOP20 - FYI just inside Brazil NT, Zizinho, Pele, Garrincha Rivelino Zico Roanldo Ronaldinho were all better than Jaizinho in dribble! I had also stated that Messi is deserved to be among the TOP dribllers in hostopry as well - but NOT the best surely! That's all .... and again some disagreed - Hene the debate conversation went on ... Last bold .. yeah like an Artist would present his chefdoeuvre with a white canvas and 1 simple balck dot in middle to convince his simplicity would be as "artistically value" as Van Gogh's self portrait, what would be your take? Right ... no need to comment
Being nominated doesn't mean he gets the award for being "the best dribbler". It just means he is on the list. And btw, the actual topic is "best dribblers", plural meaning more than one. You get it? Just look at the thread title..... I would like for you to prove that Pele and Garrincha had more dribbles than Messi. Is there data anywhere for that? I doubt it.....and "more consistent" doesn't mean more dribbles. It doesn't say a lot actually because that is your opinion. To me there is little difference between Garrincha and Jairzinho. In fact I like Jairzinho more, he was more direct and purposeful with his dribbling. Then we are on the same page, because I'm saying the same thing - Messi is amongst the best dribblers of all-time. That's a bad analogy for simplicity though.
we see more of Messi, there's more data on Messi.. you can look up every one of his goals in his career and there's video of it. This is why people consider what we have now the best ever. Information brings bias, which is fine if we can just accept it. Like an alcoholic you must first accept you have the issue before you can tackle it. So most people because they haven't seen somebody's career other than clips of it base their whole career on those clips and say.. oh he wasn't that spectacular. Sure you need video and proof in order to have an opinion, and will not consider the opinions of people that actually lived during that time and seen those players. You'll call them old and that they are mesmerized by their time etc. But just a reminder... you will sound exactly like them about the players of your time in about 30-40 years.... Garrincha made people look silly, Jairzinho didn't... purpose of the dribble the only person that knows it is the player... so can't really argue that one... Zidane dribbles without a scoring purpose... doesn't mean he doesn't have a purpose to his dribble. He is the best currently which is speaks a lot to the whole generation thing again. [/quote] That's a bad analogy for simplicity though.[/quote] actually I don't think so.. it just makes it so obvious that it sounds ridiculous.
Sports isn't like art. The winner is determined by set rules. Most are definite by score, time, length and even those that involve judging have defined criteria.
if soccer were like painting, Neymar would be like a Reubens and Messi would be like a Rothko or would it be the other way around?
Agree! BUT Not sure if you addressed my statement? ... look I said FOOTBALL is an ART in SPORTS It's so different to football is an art, nor any Sport is an "ART like"!!! OK?
1- I was polite to say so .. but some did CLAIM Messi is the best dribbler of all time, specifically betetr than Pele Maradona and Garrincha! 2- I thought you claimed Messi was "more consistent in dribbling" than other great, hence I said so. Now if you did not mean "dribble consistency" then what consistency you was talking about? A BIG HINT for you is that for the "most consistent" player ! A- Pele had got 14 world class years with 11 TOPSCORERS + 10 championships + 3WCs as GOLDEN RULE B-Di Stefano was like 12 world class years with 6 Top scorers and won 8 Ligas + 5 UCL as SILVER RULE Now keep on counting Messi trophies and see before you comeback here and say he is "more consistent" than ALL 3- My opinion and waht? so what the heck you asked me for if you disregard mine? Are you NUT or playing game with me? At least I AM A BRAZILIAN FAN and I know what I talk about! Now go off to Brazil forum and figure out to yourself!
There have been many great dribblers that not too many people have heard of like Pierre Littbarski, Magico Gonzalez, Vasilis Hatzipanagis. These guys are just as good as any of the all time greats. What makes the others more famous is their overall career and other attributes. But if talking just about dribbling then there have been a lot of guys up there with the likes of Maradona in dribbling. You see this guy was just as good a dribbler as Maradona, he was even faster and did elasticos, reverse elasticos, but he had bad professionalism. This close control is just as good as any of the all time greats. His style was a lot like Michael Laudrup.
I only know Magico Gonzalez by name. But after seen these videos... Oh how delightful... I'll be Youtubing him more often, just delightful.
All of these awards are fairly new, and up until 4 years ago were for European players only (kind of still are) So winning 4 years in a row best player of the year is kind of diluted, it's almost like the MVP award in the american sports leagues. It's a nice award but it's mostly geared towards offensive stats and not the actual Most Important Player of a team. So best offensive player of the year wins every time. That's what the Ballon D'Or has become. Best offensive player of the year.
I can agree that the prizes might be favorable toward the attackers , but it's understandable and reasonable enough (win = 3pts and tie =1pt as a rule) - look Yashin won it once, Canavaro won once, while Carlos, Maldini, Baresi Kahn, Thuram ... were in TOP3, or TOP10 few times
yes thhose names could do some amazing dribbles in their best games. However what counts is how consistent they did that , against who and which team, and lastly at what occasions ... those are the conditions and CONTEXT that we have to take into account when rating their skills. Look at Okocha, he did some amazing moves and could repeat most of the difficult moves just like R9, Maradona or Ronaldinho ... but how many times he did, and what he got out of those trcks.moves for his team? Giggs, Ibra were also done some great dribbles runs, (a la Maradona, R9 Pele ..) but how many times ? once or twice? who cares We had a separate thread for Marco, as some claimed he was just as "good as Maradona" - a big NAAAAAAHHHHHHH Why? Maradona number of dribbles at WC tournaments (only) could equate to all the runs that those names could ever put up in their WHOLE CAREER!
Yashin is arguably the best GK ever, for him to only have won it once it's sad, plus Pele only won it once also. Defenders like Beckenbauer, Maldini Baresi etc also were so above and beyond anybody else that played their position it's ridiculous they did not win it more often. To me in order to take into account best player you must look at others which play their position and just see how much better they do their jobs than the opposition. If right now for example, there was a defender which was so good he changed the way offensive players play and he transcended the sport, there would not be any reason for him to be the best player in the world, since he would have changed the way people play the game. But in the current FIFA (aka clowns) standards only offensive players have a place in the awards. I really believe they should get rid of the title of best in the world and remake it as Best GK Best LB Best CB Best Holding Mid Best Att Mid Best Forward (current ballon d'or)
Well as Well as you can see he did it against The likes of Barcelona and Valencia. Littbarski did some brilliant dribbling in the 1990 World Cup.
Yes they did great there (for a few games) but I agree Littbarski was more consistent in high level. Marco was "magic" but his number of magic games were just tiny number ... at least to my knowledge. So it was like saying, Pipen or Beastley were as "good" as M.Jordan in some of their best games
It's Magico not Marco. In his first spell he was good at Cadiz. Scoring 30 in 75 games. Not bad for a second striker for total minnows. There's a reason Barcelona wanted to sign him, he played some games for them with Maradona.
1)Maradona and Ronaldo playing against the best defenders 2)Messi (struggles against good defenders) 3)Crujiff 4)Pelè 5)Best
First there was only ONE DF/DM who did that but no one else: Beckenbauer (he won the awards deservedly) and another was GK legend Yashin also won the award. Second bold, you might say FIFA (or UEFA ballon dor) linean toward attackers more than defensive ones, but NOT like the awards were dedicated to attackers. Many times in the past some great DF/GK were close to win or in TOP3, TOP10 best contenders (in FIFA WPOY and Ballon Dor) like yashin, Beckenbauer, Mathauss (DM) Rijkaard (DM), Baresi, Fachetti, Scirea, Maldini , R.Carlos, Thuram, Kahn, Buffon and lately Canavaro (won 2006) Lastly, in your HONEST opinion, do you NOT see that : 1- (Vs GK) Pele was a much better than Gilmar? Zico was a much betetr player than Leao, Zidane was much better than Barthez, Messi was much better than Valdes ... 2- Vs DF: Ronaldo was much better than Lucio/R Junior, and better than Cafu carlos surely .. CR7 is better than a Pepe, Messi is better than Masherano , Rooney is better than Rio ...
All of these is exactly what I mentioned on my post. These positions require different skill sets, and Ronaldo or Pele could not do the other player's job, same goes for this generation, takes extremely efficient players in the defensive side to stop attackers consistently for them to get the attention as great defenders. But even when Canavaro won, he did it mostly because of the WC06 victory for Italy same scenario almost happened with Lucio, if Brazil had won in 2010 Lucio would be a very strong contender for best in the World, since he captained Inter then Brazil to 2 major Championships. So I think Roberto Carlos was as good as Ronaldo, definitely more influential at his position than Ronaldo, I think that Lucio was as good as Ronaldo, R. Junior is a crazy person and not even as good as Lucio. Cafu was also behind Ronaldo and R. Carlos. But people tend to see, if they score they are great. Look at the list for best ever, you will only find legendary goalkeepers, extraordinary defenders, dominating midfielders, and forwards which people have different opinions about. Nobody questions the GKs, DFs and Midfielders, because they are so extraordinary that it's hard to question them. But the forwards (which a lot of times even get placed ahead of everyone else) gets questioned if he should even be on the list. Figure that one out.