Best 11 Right Now

THE OP

My reponse

Your response.

On what planet is clear number one for a full season a run of games?

 

I have no dog in this hunt but what you are saying is that a guy who has a one year baseball WAR of 4.0 and then averages 1.0 for the rest of his career should be compared to Barry Bonds (who averaged above 5 for many years)*. That's not the point at all but rather he should be compared to the guy who averaged 1.0 his entire career with very little volatility.

Barry Bond > one year All star > slightly above replacement player

Are the last two closer to each other than the one year all Star is to Bonds? Yep - but there's still a difference between the guy who could raise his game even one year to a higher level and the guys who couldn't.

It's not that hard to understand.


* I made up the WAR numbers as illustrative.

 

So you think Howard's career level is ManU vs mid table epl? Because that's the only thing I've ever said in this conversation.

 

Good question actually. I'd go with the MLSer, but that if he's playing, not after the months-long break.

 

It shouldn’t be hard to understand that there’s a difference between a guy who’s ceiling is at mid table EPL and a guy whose ceiling is at ManU and his average career is at mid table. They’re not the same.

 

You didn't answer my question. What would you say Howard's career level is... I have never mentioned anyone's ceiling.

 

I'd say Howard's career level is somewhere between ManU and midtable EPL (particularly since between 2006 and 2014 Everton often finished 5th or 6th in the EPL). But if you're imposing a strict binary and I had to pick one, then sure, I might go with the latter .

But, two caveats:

1.) I don't think he peaked in his first year at Man United and then settled into mediocrity the rest of his career. In fact I think he was generally a better keeper at Everton than he was at United -- even in his first season there when he won league Best XI honors. If he had shown the form and consistency he did later on in his career, I'm guessing United wouldn't have been so quick to replace him. (Though no United fan would complain about how things turned out -- the guy they ended up bringing in was eventually voted one of the top 3 keepers of the last quarter century worldwide.)

2.) It's always a little tricky discussing goalkeepers' level because there are so many fewer opportunities for them to play at a high level. If you're a good enough player at most other positions, there will be plenty of opportunities for you at a top team somewhere, at multiple points in your career. Managers can adapt formations to accommodate you and maybe two other guys that play the same position that you do. They can rotate you in and out of the lineup or use subs to give everyone playing time. And teams may not be as concerned about long term stability at those other positions, so it may be easier to unseat starters each new season, while bouncing around clubs. So while Man Untied has essentially only had two keepers receive any serious playing time in the past 15 years, and Juventus essentially only had one in like a 20 year span, there have probably been dozens of opportunities for say attacking midfielders to break into the lineups at those clubs. For a keeper, the windows of opportunity are much smaller and far between, and just may not come at the most opportune times.

 

not hard to understand. Its between mid level EPL and ManU

edit: just like KALM said above

 

Lol fair enough. Like between AAA and the major leagues right?

 

Can't disagree there. But when a guy plays 1-2 years for a high end club, sold for not being good enough, and then 6-7 years for a mid-level club without getting purchased by a better club...I agree, I'd lean towards the latter, just like you.

Appreciate the clarity.

 

Only on BS could Tim Howard (retired) be the subject of a discussion in a thread labeled best xi "right now". I'll write it off to corona derangement syndrome.

 

well, hes not retired and hes being used as a comparison to current players.

but sure, sweet burn. its super cool youre so above it.

 

This whole discussion is bizarre. Howard has stated that he learned a lot in his second season and that he always knew he had a lot to learn. Manchester Unjted took a flyer on him that he would be good enough whil he grew to level... and it started out well and then fell apart. A young GK can look good, but when they make mistakes, it gets serious very fast. Howard wasnt up to it and vaguely recall him falling out with his GK coach while he was trying to help him through it.

Another reason this is bizarre is that myself and quite a few others would view Keller and Freidel to have had better club careers. The idea that getting a shot at a top team makes a GK special is weird. GK are judged by what they do over Long stretches, limited numbers of bad goals, and how they recover from them. Nothing from Howard's time at Manchester United stands up to that. In the current discussion, I would easily take a 24 year old Steffen than a 24 yo Howard. I think Steffen is a much more complete GK at this age and suspect he will go on to have a better career.

For those who havent seen it, here is the mistake against Porto. A Machester United GK doesnt do this late in CL game to get eliminated...

 

Here is the article from the Manchester United GK coach. It definitely impacted my opinion of Howard.

https://www.espn.com/soccer/blog/es...hy-excerpt-on-tim-howard-at-manchester-united

 

Tim Coward. Damn.

 

Your guess is as good as mine...ive realized on BS, you can say the sky is blue and someone will make it an argument...your career level apparently is equal to the absolute peak you attained, regardless for how long.

 

???

 

It's in the article you linked.

 

I missed it, but it is front and center. I didnt post the article with that angle in mind.

 

There you go fighting the straw man, if anybody said anything that dumb you would quote it,

 

Howard and Friedel have had very similar club careers in my opinion. I would probably give Howard the nod there, but it's close enough that I wouldn't argue with anyone who chose Friedel instead. However, it's much harder to make the case for Keller over Howard based solely on club performance (and I say that as someone who personally rated Keller about as high as the other two).

Howard and Friedel have both been voted the top goalkeeper in the Premier League at one point in their career -- Friedel in 2003, Howard in 2004. Keller has not -- in the EPL or any other league. For what it's worth, all three have received MLS Goalkeeper of the Year honors once.

Howard and Friedel were first choice starters for top 4 Premier League clubs exactly once in their careers, but both had been #1s for clubs that finished regularly in the top third (i.e., top 6) of the Premier League standings -- Howard in six separate seasons, Friedel in five separate seasons. Keller never played for a team in a top league that finished higher than 9th or 10th while he was there. That said, all 4 of the clubs he started for in his prime finished 9th or 10th, so he was certainly no worse than a midtable keeper.

Howard and Friedel have finished once or twice in the top 10 as distant runner ups for IFFHS' World's Best Goalkeeper of the Year honors -- Friedel in 2003, Howard in 2009 and 2010. IFFHS also did a best-keeper of the 21st century poll in 2012, and Howard finished 17th, while Friedel finished 30th. Keller never appeared on any of those lists. (Take those rankings with a grain of salt. I only mention them because they were arguably the most noteworthy annual international goalkeeper rankings until a couple years ago.)

Friedel and Howard are tied for 7th (along with Edwin van der Sar) for most shutouts in Premier League history at 132. Keller's not ranked, but he had 81 clean sheets across the EPL, La Liga, and Bundesliga by my count.

Friedel is 4th and Howard is 7th in most EPL appearances in net -- Friedel had 450 and Howard 399. Keller's not ranked, but he had 330 appearances across the EPL, La Liga, and Bundesliga.

Howard has more saves total (he's 3rd all-time while Friedel is 10th), and probably also has the better save percentages. (The only site where I could find this information tracks save percentages on a season by season basis, but Howard is the third highest player in terms of single season save percentages after Schmeichel and Cech, and is tied for 5th in terms of total number of seasons with a higher than 80% save percentage). This information is a bit too hard for me to track down with Keller spread across the three leagues he played for.

 

Friedel is consistently in top EPL goalkeepers of all time list while Howard is included less frequently and often in the honorable mention category.

Keller's career was more varied across more teams in multiple countries. I put extra value on KK and BF having to fight to find clus/get work permits for ma y of their early years. I also was quite impressed for Keller to have had success in England, Spain, and Germany and being a club favorite for each of his teams.

Your stats show that there is definitely quite a bit of subjectivity in this discussion. Friedel did what was right dor his career but I was always disappointed as a USMNT team gann that he retired over then before he stopped playing. Keller was always my favorite USMNT GK (and a shame he didnt get to be a #1 at a world cup until he was in his late 30s) and would probably have Freidwl and then Howard but very close. I think Freidel had the best club career with others two close behind.

 

@KALM

Great post with good context. The three that we think of as the greats were quite decorated, with Howard and Friedel being a step above. All of this reinforces that it's too early to say that the current crop is on equal footing to the old guys.

It's always a tricky balance between nostalgia and being a prisoner of the moment.