]quote]Anyway, good night mac...how's the weather down under?...gotta go to bed. [/quote] Bloody awful weather here at present (mid-winter). In fact, a bit like Manchester in June
Yep, you somehow got that one right. Look up the definition of the word bull$hit: "The only word that describes 97.1% of all posts made by nicephoras on BigSoccer." Great argument. Not quite as creative as the one usually made by my 12 year old sister when she tries to get out of doing homework, but effective nonetheless. And perfectly fits the definition.
OK, if we are talking about top quality players, don't you think it would make sense to talk about the best clubs? Poor club cannot afford a top quality player. Regardless of the league. But the likes of MU or Arsenal could afford excellent players from La Liga for a while now. It absolutely does not matter in this case whom you consider a star and whom you don't consider a star. The point is that Forlan plays many times better for Villareal compared to what he did here. Over the course of 38 games in the very first season with his new club, he managed to outscore every superstar from La Liga you can think of. And he helped his club to go from 8th place to 3rd, allowing them to compete in Champions League next season. Philips scored 30 goals and led them... nowhere. Not even Intertoto Cup. That's not true, because there is no way he would've interested MU if he didn't play well in South America. So that makes it at least 2 seasons. So basically so far throughout his playing career he played very well everywhere except for Manchester United. Maybe he had the form of his life. But it's the same argument as the one abt Forlan. He played well for both his club and Brazil NT before coming to Manchester United. I hope he's traded this summer to one of the La Liga clubs, and we could see whether he'll be a better player there. When you say "smaller" clubs, how many Premiership clubs do you have in mind? 5? 10? 15? Funny how mention a manager of a relegated club that finished dead last in the Premiership. Anyways, just ignore them and concentrate on the "bigger" clubs which could afford top 3 league players. Oh yeah, great comparison. I totally remember how Taibi became the leading scorer for the absolutely terrific Venezia club in 1999, which managed to take impressive 16th spot in Serie A. Hell, he wasn't even starting for Venezia when MU decided to get him. And then, after his transfer back from MU he became the greatest keeper of all times by playing regularly for a club that was relegated to Serie B in 2001 and stuck there for 2 years! And of course, he was brilliant for Atalanta, which finished dead last this season, and he's on course to become the regular GK for his NT. Right? ...And for Nth time, how many times would we have to return to the whole keeper issue?
I wouldn't go as far as saying he played well throughout his entire non-Manchester United playing career. When we signed him, he was still a 'prospect', and he possibly only started making waves in the Argentinian league the season before we signed him. Just because we were interested in him, it doesn't mean he was already a star. I suspect that he will be, considering it is a less physical league and he'll be generally allowed a lot more time on the ball. But again, if he's a better player there it would also be because he'd possibly be getting more playing opportunities. I mean its common sense that if a player doesn't get a regular run of games in the side, then he won't be able to adjust to different league. I don't think Kleberson is incapable of playing in the Premiership - he just needs a regular run of games to build up his form. He's been had long-term injuries on and off for two whole seasons now.
Once again, you fail to engage any actual substance in my posts. You didn't give an argument as to why he'd be successful. I fail to see why I need to rebut an argument that doesn't exist. Careful about throwing stones.
I have to disagree with you here. Veron did not play all his games without ever being closed down. He was pretty good for the National team for a while and while the prem's pace may have been quicker than he experienced overall in his career there were certainly many moments in games when he was able to play at a high pace. Watch an Argentina v Brazil match and you will know that when necessary SA players can play at a high pace. I'm not saying the pace of the game had nothing to do with Veron's relative failure, I'm saying its not the only aspect of it. Alot of it also had to do with Keane. Keane is not a creative player, yet since the inception of the EPL he's had the most passes every season - a playmaker cannot play next to him. Even Scholes, who by now has earned Keane's trust is not a playmaker, we dont really have one. We've relied on the wings mainly or on our forwards to do something magical, a great long ball from Becks, a super jinking run by Cole or Giggs, or simply working the ball around until there's an opening. Scholes' great passing is used mostly to help us keep possesion and to get out of tight situations, but he's no playmaker, he has his biggest effect on the game while making runs off the ball. For all intents and purposes, as long as Keane is at United we will never have a true playmaker succeed with us. On to the Forlan debate - this is interesting... many said the pressure of playing to United got to him. That is to an extent true... but a big part of the reason he could not succeed here was the fact that he'd never be THE MAN. He's not a withdrawn striker nor is he unselfish... he'd make runs towards Ruud instead of away from him because he was a natural goalscorer. We don't need a goal scorer to bring out Ruud's best we need a provider, or atleast someone who scores in different ways, someone who makes their goals. Forlan almost dried up Ruud's service when he played. He was never going to be the top scorer, but he certainly showed signs of awaking from his slumber in his last year here. He looked better and better until he fell off at the end. Just because his game is better suited to La Liga does not mean he could not have done well enough in the EPL, there were other factors to why he did not do well with us.
Affording players in one thing, getting them to come here is another. Trends are already changing in that Del Horno, Reyes and Xabi Alonso have come to England in the past 2years (just as I pointed out to you already that trends are starting to change) and we have constantly ried to sign the cream of La Liga players and failed miserably at every turn... not for the want of trying. It's just like asking how many top-tier English or ex EPL players are in Spain.. Giggs was coveted for a long time by both Italain and Spanish clubs as is Ruud, Gerrard, Lampard, Sol Campbell was coveted and probably still would be if he was on the market..it goes on and on. Top players from the big3 rarely move to another league. It is just how it is. Villareal are not Madrid or Barcelona..which would be the accurate comparison to make and see if he handled the pressure of playing for them. To accurately compare what Forlan has done playing for a small team with no expectations and hardly any demands (in comparison to the plain requirements of huge teams) is not the same. Forlan at Villa with Angel may have thrived as well...who knows? Forlan does not handle pressure well..and that will be his acid test next season..whether he can repeat what he did this year or not. That's because he was the striker who was fit for the enitre campaign. This is irrelevant. A striker's job is to score goals. It is not a reflection of his ability if the rest of his team mates are too inadequate to hold onto leads he has given them. And Forlan did not 'lead' anything. Riquleme is master in chief at Villareal and without him Forlan would not have done anywhere near as well. SAF did not scout the player. It is widely acknowledged that Martin Ferguson is clueless in the transfer market so what he sees in any potential player for Utd is pretty much irrelevant. We tried to get a fledgling player and turn him into a star on the cheap. We got stung for it. It had nothing to do with him being S.A and all to do with taking a gamble on a one season wonder. Forlan was OK at Indepeniente not good or great. There were far, far superior players in S.A at the time as someone else already pointed out to you...they would have cost us a lot more though and lo..we didn't make a move for them. I am of the belief that Kleberson was bought to make Ronaldinho happy and to have our #1 target settle quickly. He was a gamble, same as Forlan, with the added bonus of keeping one of the best players in the world sweet. A small price to pay whether it worked out or not for Klebs..as long as Ronaldinho was happy everything would have been sweet. Clubs that never qualify for the CL, clubs that don't expect to compete for a CL spot every single year and clubs with a much smaller budget then those who do regularly enter the CL. I can use any analogy for any plaer you decide to pick out as a flop from the S.A's who have been at this club..it is not hard and pinpoints how weak your arguement is.... Oh no! Kleberson's not working out...let's never sign Kaka' then your arguement is poor.
Actually, what I said was: "I am confident that Samuel would've had better success in the Premiership rather than La Liga." His main struggles in La Liga early on was due to the fact that physical play is not welcome in La Liga and refs called a whole lot of fouls which were never called in Serie A where he easily was one of the top 5 defenders for a while. He's had a hard time adjusting to it, he was forced somewhat to change his playing style to adjust and not get cautioned for every tackle. Considering that Real Madrid never really had a true DM, the opposition often had quick counter attacks where 3 Real Madrid defenders faced 4 or 5 opposing players and since speed is not one of his greatest attributes, he struggled. In Premiership the play is much more physical and refs actually allow it, so he wouldn't have gotten so many cautions and could play in a way he did at Roma. It obviosuly all depends on a team, but in major clubs in Premiership there is no DM problem, so the quick counterattacks would not have created many problems for him. He's exceptional in the air, and in La Liga aerial game is not very popular, unlike Premiership. So yes, I don't think he would've struggled in Premiership. And for the record: I'm not planning to go deep into this discussion in this thread, as it has no connection whatsoever to either the topic or my argument. And I'm not throwing stones, just trying to speak your language.
You guys are talking about Forlan..... Well he was destined to go after he missed and open goal .... on more than one occasion. Too me that is unacceptable. That shows that he couldnt handle that type of pressure. How hard is it to miss a goal, from less than 20 yards out, with no Defenders and the goal Keeper beaten? This isnt the main reason, i just found that funny that a professional player missed open goals. He also missed an open goal against Real MAdrid this year after Riquelme did all the work. But back on topic. Julio Baptista looked good when he came on against Japan in the confederations cup.
Fair point, and it's hard to argue against it. We'll just have to see how he handles himself and performs next year. Although, going back to this topic, I could say that it is not known how Baptista from a small Sevilla club would be able to adjust in one of the biggest clubs in the world; and Essien, who played many Champions League games and was one of the main stars in his team has a better chance of adjusting more quickly, because he can handle the pressure. Agree? I disagree with it. It is very important when you score goals. If you are on a losing team and often find yourself down 0-3 or 0-4, the other coach may substitute his main stars, the opposing team would relax and it would be much easier to score a goal against them, compared to the game, which decides the final Chamions League spot. Forlan scored a whole lot of goals late in the season, which allowed his team to secure a CL spot for the very first time in history. And while I agree that Riquelme is their star player and a leader, last year with him all they managed to accomplish was 8th spot. Really? Ronaldinho was never interested in playing for MU and the only clubs that were in consideration were Real Madrid and Barcelona. And Barca was electing LaPorta at the time, and since he was unable to get Beckham, it became obvious he'd spend a whole lot of money on Ronaldinho. A small price to pay? He was not cheap at all, and wasting £6m on a player (and keeping him for 2 years) that was supposed to keep happy a player that was almost impossible to get seems like a stretch to me. No, actually your argument is weak, because as I said, there were a whole lot of factors that contributed to the failures of the players. My argument was that it would be much easier for Essien to adapt here and there is a much better chance that he would perform better (for many reasons that I mentioned in my previous posts, not just because of his South American roots, as you want me to say ) than Baptista. I am yet to hear a solid argument from you as to why you think Baptista would fit in better and be more helpful to the club than Essien.
No I don't agree. I'll tell you why. Nearly every Brazilian or S.A has to take this path to success in Europe..i.e a smaller team they tear it up at and then are bought by a big club..Rivaldo, Romario, Ronaldinho, Ronaldo, Lucio, Heinze etc etc etc all started out at smaller European clubs and moved on. This is the normal process for S.A's Forlan and Kleberson are anomolies..the product of Martin Ferguson dabbling in affairs he has no clue about. He convinced us to hijack the boro deal and bring Forlan straight here...we broke the usual small-big club etiquette trying to skank us a player on the cheap...which rarely works out. It is rare for a true S.A star to come straight to Europe and play for the biggest teams. Kaka' and Robinho are (going) to be to examples of a rare rule break. Baptista has shown over 2 seasons why it is time for him to move to a big club, he's earnt it. Natural progression. It's the same way Forlan will move 'up' from Villareal..by earning his spurs at a smaller club that then takes the interest of the big boys. Find me a manager that complains when their striker scores 30league goals in a season...It is a #9's job to score goals...all he can do is fulfill his part of the bargain no matter where the team ends up in the final league standings. False. False again. Kenyon scuppered the deal. That and the words of Barca's Sandro Rossell to Gaucho turned the deal on its head. See above, It's what I believe as do many others. We kept Kleberson anyway and hoped he'd work out but our initial interest was to team him up with Gaucho and keep Gaucho sweet. ------ You're opening gambits in this thread were these: A clear display of ignorane and bias..which you seem to disassociate yourself from now. As to why I think Baptista would succeed here: - He looks like an EPL playing in a foriegn league (La Liga) - He has many similar traits to Rooney - He scores bucketloads of goals from midfield or at CF - He is a start and a cover for 4 positions on the pitch and he can play them all very well. - He will not be roughhoused by anyone in the PL. I'd like to see them try! - If ever there was a template of one player to another it is that of Baptista and Rooney. As for Essien. The whole point of this thread was to see whom people would chose. I'd take Baptista, others would take Essien. That's fair and simple enough. But your reasoning for not taking Baptista is awful. backtrack however you see fit but your arguement was 'he is a S.A therefore he wont work' completely ignorning the traits and skillset of the player in question. I find that to be unacceptable hence, we argue.
After all that is it safe to assume DS wants Baptista.... Nice as a Chelski supporter is indifferent.... Stud wants Essien but is more interested in making an ass out of himself for 3-4 pages....
On the issue of Ronaldinho: do you have any evidence to back it up in addition to your assumptions? I said that Fergie has no idea how to use creative SA midfilders properly based on his past experience, and there is a good chance Baptista will struggle to adapt in MU. And I've listed numerous reasons. Which part of it is bias and which is ignorance? You remember that we currently have exactly 5 forwards? And, considering Fergie's unwillingness often to play at least 2 of them on the field, that would mean we would have 4 forwards on the bench? If he's so similar to Rooney, why would we even need him? After all, we have the original Rooney. One Rooney is plenty, considering we have the likes of RVN, Smith and Ole. You want to buy a player and force him to play a position which he is not really accustomed to? Or allow him a free role - playing wherever he'd like to play? How many times has he played a DM role in Seville lately? He will not be roughhoused? CRonaldo is roughhoused pretty regularly, does it make him bad? Ruud is often roughhoused, is it an indication that he couldn't be successful? And as far as templates - one Rooney is more than enough. Attacking midfielder or a forward is not as important right now as DM position, which Essien is much better suited for, and where he played regularly on the highest level. No, that was not my argument. That was one of the many reasons I stated for picking Essien. I believe that the fact that he is a South American and South Americans often struggle to adapt in the Premiership, and SAF in particular has had some problems with them, should be taken into consideration along with other factors. If you just want to put words in mouth and argue about things that I never said, have fun with it, but don't try to simplify my argument. Seriously, English is not my native language, but I think I was able to explain my position clearly over the past... 10 pages Re-read Mac's posts again, he also makes some excellent points supporting my position. It's not as simple as you want it to be.
Stud if your looking for any facts on Ronaldinho ill get some for you.... http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=268160&cc=5901 http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=268735&cc=5901 http://soccernet.espn.go.com/headlinenews?id=269105&cc=5901
as much as i think That he is just arguing to argue, he is making a little sense. The one i am really thinking about is Where will he play, and if he isnt Starting will he want to come, Or will he want to stay. Some say he may replace scholes, but i dont think Scholes has lost it, he just needs to be allowed the freedom he was when Keane could clean up after him. OR Butt. Lets all try and be nice. No subliminals.
If money were no object I would take Essien. It is just so vague right now as to how much we have to spend during this transfer period...
Where would he play? AM, DM, Withdrawn, Striker, RM... any number of places he could play. I'm not sure he's ready to take over from Keane, but he's an amazing player who could turn out to be a great replacement/starter in alot of positions... he wont have any trouble getting a game. I understand the concern you are voicing but I cant honestly respect the "He's south american so he wont succeed" argument.
The last time we talked you had your pants down. Did you get a chance to pull them up? bennismalls, thanks. Looks like there was some talk regarding him, but MU never seriously wanted him and their offer was pathetic, compared to the one from Barca or Real. And Ronaldinho would've gone to the highest bidder, it was obvious from the start. He just wanted out of PSG. DS or johno, care to venture a guess as to why MU was not willing to offer at least a reasonable amount (£21million is not that high, considering Becks was sold in early June) for Ronaldinho? I dare you to find a place where I said it. You get a beer if you do. I'll even go word-by-word with you.
Fvck it I'm bored..... Oh sagely one please let us uninformed people in on your extreme wisdom regarding Man U and Ronaldinho...........
i dont agree that south americans cant make it. I think they can. the only thing im worried is that if he comes will he start. I wouldnt waste more than 5 million for someone to sit on the bench. Also i would rather us get Essien because he is an immediate solution to me. Baptista's Versatility is a good think though. We will see where it goes.