I think that this Issue about South American PLayers or Latinplayers not making it are bull. I stand by the fact That Liverpools spanish players did good. Back to the Essien story line. Im ready for both of them.
Good one. The minute Benitez or any other good Spanish coach becomes the head coach in MU, I'd agree with buying more Spanish and SA players.
I refuted your point on Forlan, then forced you back onto the topic at hand, which is why you think Julio Baptista would not be well-suited for Manchester United. Your "reasoning" previously is highly specious, and mostly amounts to you not knowing where Baptista would play, when its been clear for some time that we could use a creative successor to Paul Scholes. Beyond that, you ramble on about Forlan and Veron for no apparent reason other than that they're Latin American. One of these days I'll have to get Huss to lengthen the "Location" field so that mine can read "currently Chicago but I've only lived here since high school and don't really care for any of the local teams other than the Fire" so that clueless smartasses will stop thinking they can rile me up by insulting Chicago sports teams. Surprisingly, I actually don't think a move for Baptista would be the best one. I'd much prefer Essien, though I'm not even sure he'd be the answer. If we were to go for Baptista, I wouldn't complain though because I think his game is more physical and relies less on huge amounts of space. I can't say for sure whether the demands of playing for a huge club would get to him though, and even if he doesn't rely on space, he still could be used to it. As I said before, we need a creative mid who can also be physical and make plays in the box. And that's all--it has nothing to do with Veron or Forlan, who were very different players, no matter how much you want it to be about them.
While often agreeing with the likes of johno, DS, fergie etc I have to say that Stud83 is forcing you guys into some very silly arguments to refute him. There is a very binary approach to your thinking. Alex will be very, VERY wary of bringing in what I describe as a "warm climate" player - South Americans, Spanish, Italian etc - again. Alex's own experience is not good. Veron is probably the biggest mistake he's made in his whole career. Kleberson was a World Cup winner and has been even less successful. Forlan has shown that, in the right climate (both football and cultural) he's a good player - statistically the best striker in Spain. But all of them failed miserably at Utd. Now, that doesn't mean every other such player will be a failure but it does mean that the stats so far say that the probability is high. You keep on arguing that the numbers of these players in the Premiership are small. There are reasons for that: 1) The South American/European player, in the main, fears he will not like the cold, wet climate culture. And, being born and bred in Manchester but now living in Western Australia, I can confirm that the Manchester climate is not appealing to someone who loves the sun and the outdoor lifestyle that goes with it. And players that don't like their living environment are not happy in their game either and then underperform. So they stay away - there's no shortage of venues that suit them better and Premiership managers ignore players who may not like the lifestyle. 2) Generally speaking the Premiership is not a footballing culture that encourages flair. It's fast and furious and doesn't allow the time and/or space to play creative football. That's what did it for Veron, and Forlan and is currently doing it for Kleberson. None of them have come to terms with the Premiership style and all have been far more successful outside of the Premiership. Just as others have failed, and Utd's players are not the only ones (one of my favourites was Juninho), then they understand that they too could fail. Exceptions, Ardiles the standout for me, merely illustrate the adage "exceptions that prove the rule" because of their rarity. 3) Alex is British through and through. He's a dour Scotsman with a "get stuck in" attitude towards the game that is reflected by the fan base - see their reaction to Smith and Heinze. These are the qualities that British fans admire and the flair skills of "continental" footballers (see, we even have a (derogatory) name for them) are not nearly as admired. Playing for a Wenger or Benitez may not be so bad but for a manager like Alex well, better not take the risk. When you guys point out that Baptista is strong and aggressive then you don't seem to realize that you're making Stud83's argument for him. You're saying that Baptista is a Premiership style of player. You're saying that the Premiership requires these characteristics from a player - this is the sort of player that will succeed in the Premiership. Your saying that Baptista isn't your typical South American player and in doing so implying that "your typical South American player" will not succeed. But in the end it's all about probabilities not just they succeed or fail. The figures say that it is more probable that a British or Dutch player will repeat what you have seen in his previous play in a Premiership shirt and less likely that a South American/European player will. So take note of that because if you ignore history then you're condemned to repeat it. Alex, in particular, has burnt his fingers badly when he's ignored this though Heinze and Ronaldo may cause him to reflect. I think he will be very cautious in future.
Bravo, machoward. In just one post, you've managed to point out what Stud83 couldn't in a dozen or so. Do many typical Latin-style players have difficultly adapting in England? Yes, and you've outlined the reasons for it (though I think you missed the language barrier, something Forlan mentioned specifically, and a reason Benitez and Mourinho have had more success in at least luring Spanish and Portugese players to their respective teams). You've also outlined reasons why Baptista isn't so typical, and why he may have a better chance at succeeding in England and for Man United. And that's the main point we wanted to make here.
I'm tired of asking, what in your opinion is a significant number? Look at the topic title. Baptista or Essien. There are good qualities to both, but I think you also cannot ignore the fact that so far Fergie has been unable to achive anything with his high-priced attacking SA players. So, even if everything else is equal, this should play an important role in final decision. Not the only role, but an important role. And I have never said that anyone will flop simply because of their nationality, I'm tired of repeating it. Re-read my last post addressed to you, I made it very clear. It is just one of the factors you simply cannot ignore in our case. And you are very wrong about the whole Heinze issue. My year of birth is in my nickname, btw. Do you expect Rooney or Scholes to be injured early and often??? Man, that's not a good sign. What is this assumption based on? "Once Keano retires"...? Well, that may take a couple of years. And as nicephoras pointed out, one of the reasons Forlan struggled is because of his irregular playing time. Wouldn't that be a problem for Baptista? Plus, isn't it better to actually buy a player that played most of his life as a DM rather than a player that played some DM as a youngster, but mostly has been successful as an attacking force? LOL. Are you serious? Where did those rumours come from? His agent? Now that changes everything. Baptista probably won't have many problems, but it's not his best position. Why wouldn't Essien fit in perfectly? I think at this point he is the best long-term replacement for Keane. French Ligue?? Hello, have you seen CL at all this year? He's been magnificent all along, has been Lyon's best player, and if not for a bad penalty, he would've had a chance to play in semi-finals of Chamions League. Sevilla, on the other hand could not do a thing in the UEFA Cup won by some previously unknown Russian team. And 6th place in La Liga is a solid result, but nothing really to brag about. It all depends on where they play. If Baptista plays, as you said instead of Scholes or Rooney, he better score many goals. If they both play DM, I think Essien could score as many goals easily. Plus, he's a better defender. OK. But I don't see how that can be viewed as an argument against Essien. They are both physical enough not to have any problems in this area.
Not to mention that Alex speaks a version of English that even the English can't understand But in the end this is all about proportions. The eleventh commandment is not "thou shalt not introduce South American/European players" but it has to be remembered that a significant majority of these have failed in the Premiership and caution should be used when introducing them. The situation is changing with managers like Wenger and Benitez coming in but a diehard Brit like Alex will be very careful still, particularly when his own attempts to bring in change have seen such high profile failures.
Thanks, machoward You summarized most of my arguments very nicely in one post. I must admit, it ain't easy to try to complete a project while replying to about 10 different messages every hour. Achtung, if you paid any attention to my posts, I said that Essien has a better chance of succeeding in Premiership and particularly Man United rather than Baptista. Although I'm not disputing that in theory Baptista should be more successful in Premiership than, say, Veron.
I'm not refuting the fact that many South American, Spanish and Italian players would find it hard adjusting to the Premiership. That is always there, just like an English player will initially find it hard adapting to a foreign League. I'm just against the notion that ALL South American players (narrowed down to attackers by Stud83) would be misfits at Manchester United. A lot of South Americans will struggle, but I think its important to understand why some of them struggle...and you've given some points. Weather, new surroundings, language barriers etc are one reason that could affect performance. At the same time, if you have a South American player (in fact any foreign player) with a lion's heart and lots of spirit, he is likely to not try and let his environment affect him too much and he will focus on his football. Heinze I think has adapted really well, partly due to the courage and determination he possesses. I think when looking at any foreign player, this is one of the main things we need to look at - this applies not only to South Americans, but Asians, Africans, Southern Europeans, etc. I think the Premiership is evolving in this respect. I think we're finding a lot more players in the Premiership who could be classified as flair players, especially in the top teams. Your point still holds to a large extent, but there are many players from South America and La Liga who aren't exactly flair players, and they too rely on physical prowess. True, Sir Alex and the fans love to see grit and raw determination in the players. But Giggs, and lately Ronaldo, have always been crowd favourites as well. If you read Stud83's posts, he specifically says that the reason Veron, Forlan, and Kleberson were failures is because they are South American; he then goes on to say Baptista will be a failure at United because he is South American. His argument is not about the "typical South American". Obviously he needs to take note of past failures. But he should NOT base future signings on probability. It is a very simplistic way of going about things, especially when the sample size is so low. Future signings should be based on learning from the failures of previous players, and trying to understand where they went wrong. I would be very disappointed if Fergie stayed off signing South Americans just because Veron, Forlan and Kleberson failed to impress him. He probably now know that signing a Veron-type player without being to accomodate him next to Keane is a big mistake. I agree that signing someone who has already shown good form in the Premiership or the Dutch League is probably safer, but that shouldn't put us off signing a South American player who has the characteristics and attributes to make him a success at United. I'm not against caution, I'm just against blind prejudice.
*Yawn* Really? Is that what I say? Is that a blind prejudice? Was I only talking about nationality? Seriously, you have got to pay more attention to my messages. Otherwise you are arguing something that I never claimed. https://www.bigsoccer.com/forum/showpost.php?p=5371577&postcount=99 Still me from another post:
I wasn't referring to you specifically. I'm pointing out the same thing you're pointing out in your above post - that many factors are involved, and that we need to look at more than just nationality to be fair. There's no point arguing anymore about this South American issue - I just wanted to know why you felt Baptista, regardless of his nationality, wouldn't be good for us. You've mentioned why (after many, many posts)...and I respect that you feel Essien is the better choice. To be honest, you took a long while before you mentioned anything about why Baptista wouldn't be a good option for us other than that he's South American and in the past we've had bad luck with them. All I wanted was you to say why you didn't think he was an exception, based on something more than his nationality and it took you several posts before you addressed that. Anyway, about that numbers question you've repeatedly asked.... Even if we signed nine South Americans, I wouldn't be against signing a South American the tenth time. Numbers like this don't mean much to me, because like I've said, three, nine, or even twenty is a fairly small sample size if you want to draw legimitate correlations (basic statistics). I really don't believe in this probability argument, because even if we signed nine South Americans and they all failed to adapt to the Premiership, we still need to look at each case individually. Maybe the nine players are all of similar playing style etc, which doesn't suit the Premiership. So maybe then the tenth time we sign a South American, we sign one who is more adapted to the Premiership.
Signing a new player is risky no matter where he comes from. You have to make full use of all information available. If players from one league - the Dutch league for example - have, in the main, been successful and those from another have not, then that's a useful piece of information. There is a reason for the sample size being low - lack of success and anticipation of failure (by players as well as managers). Unless his understanding of their failure included these players learning their trade in leagues that rewarded different styles of play. Veron is a superb player in games where he is given the time to work his magic but didn't have that time in the Premiership. Kleberson was believed to be the hard man (read the posts from when he was first introduced) of the Brazilian team. But a hard man in Brazilan football is on a different level of "hardness" in British football. If the failure relates to the style of football these players are used to then being cautious about players with similar experiences is only common sense. Veron's failure was nothing to do with being alongside Keane. It was his failure to play his creative game when hassled and hurried by Premiership opposition. He couldn't adjust to the pace and style of play. That's not a problem. The problem is players who have only played in leagues sufficiently different to the Premiership. Then you have to use other criteria. If the player's style seems to fit in with the Premiership style - Heinze is a good example - then you must obviously take that into account. But then you still have the problem as to whether or not the cultural differences - lifestyle, climate language etc - are going to affect the players performance. Whatever, a player brought up in a league with a different playing style than the Premiership and in a significantly different culture to that in Manchester has to be a greater risk than a "local" player and approached with caution. In Veron, Kleberson and Forlan, Alex has experienced that risk and will be doubly cautious in future and it wouldn't surprise me one bit if he stays away from South American/European players in future. Nor can I say I would blame him with the severe restrictions that we may now encounter under Glazer
OK, but if you have a choice between two similar players (as we do in this thread), and they are very close in all important characteristcs, would you consider nationality to be important in this case as a deciding characteristc? Just as a precautionary "less likely to fail" characteristic?
I wake up and see this thread has turned into a 'S.A attackers can't play in the EPL' battle, which is rubbish of the highest order. I quoted your post howard, because it addresses actual factors that affect players from such climates and isn't a sweeping generalistion that ignores every positive influence any Latin Armerican has had on the English game Good spot on Ardiles btw, I was going to mention Ricky Villa as well Stud made sure not to answer my post where I stated that with the higher calibre of player - the top tier, as it where - of South American is rarely interested in a move to England. Until they are, his whole arguement is flawed. You cannot rank these things whilst not having any sample pool but Veron to cite. We have never been linked (the player himself having the desire to come here) with a good/great South American that has come to England and been a 'flop' except Veron. Veron's reasons for failure are obvious. He is a specific type of player who needs the entire attack to flow through him with him as the director in chief...how the hell can we gauge his influence when he was actually given the lowest rank in the midfield? He had to defer chiefly to Keane and then Scholes and after that if the outlet ball to Beckham or Giggs was on, he had to make the play. Veron was bought and then used incorrectly, but Veron is and always has been a linear player. He was bound to fail if not given the midfield as his own. From this single player Stud thinks he can determine the success path of every other good-great SA player in exsistence, ever...because Veron 'flopped' not only is that wrong, it is foolish. Forlan and Kleberson were never stars. The rule for a non-star, no matter where he is from is that he is a gamble. He's not coming to your club as a star and so the likelyhood he wont become one during his time with the club is something that has to be factored in, if we bought a player from Blackburn, would we expect him to succeed? If we bought in Kevin Philips after his wonder season..would it be expected he would turn into a world class player? Stud's arguement is flawed until we see the Baptista's the Joaquins, the Vicente's, the Ronaldinho's etc, etc come here and actually fail. Forlan and Kleberson were never and will never be in with that level of player and so comparing both sets as 'stars' is a joke to begin with. Even then, if you buy Vicente and play him as say, a RW and he doesn't succeed...is he a failure? The Veron case is one people quickly decide to class as a fail. The simple fact is, he played well when given the chance to do so in the only role he can actually play Using the logic that Veron flopped as a barometer for Baptista (as different a player as possible) is assinine, pointless a waste of time. If you run at Veron and harass him (in any league) he will not cope well..if you run at Baptista and harass him you will be met with a player very similar in stength to Rooney who has the pace to leave his man standing. Why compare polaric players just becuase they are both S.A's ?It's like saying because Taibi (who was neverrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr a star in Italy) was awful for us we should never consider Buffon or Casillias. After all they too are latin the same part of the world..so by default they would be as rubbish for us as Taibi was...even though both are actual proven world stars who would be coveted by every club if put on the market.
He would have succeeded, but not as well as at Barcelona. Then again, I think Ronaldinho is brilliant, but overrated. Gilberto was an integral part of an undefeated EPL team, and Edu wasn't even on the radar screen of the Selecao before his success in England. Oh, Seba was a phenomenal player. But he wasn't that suited to the English game because like Riquelme (although to a lesser degree) he liked to have the ball at his feet. The bigger problem, however, was that he needed a lot of time on the ball. And any team with Keane wasn't going to give that to him. For about a decade now all of ManUtd's passing has gone through Keane, and Veron wasn't going to change that. Remember, Veron ran the show in a midfield that featured Pavel Nedved, Dejan Stankovic and Sergio Conceicao (in his prime) as well as Matias Almeyda and Simeone behind him. That's a moot point, as I have no interest in discussing whether or not Baptista is a good fit for your club. Unless Gabriel Heinze is from some place other than Argentina, you're actually 1/4. Samuel would be a horrific bust in the EPL.
Incidentally, this argument can be short circuited very easily. In 3 easy steps. Observe: Step 1: Step 2: Step 3: Roque Jr. to Leeds. Discuss amongst yourselves. If you need more topics, a peanut is neither a pea, nor a nut.
That's exactly what I'm saying...we need to assess every player individually, and then compare him to the success/failure of similiar kinds of players (which often are not necessarily based on similar places of origin although this may affect the main things that you assess). Not to mention work permit regulations...if these weren't in place I reckon we'd have a lot more South Americans in the Premiership and the Championship, and the style of play as a result would be different. I think when assessing the failure of a player, which isn't always easy to do, we need to look at weaknesses as well as the absence of certain traits in a player. Veron was never a player who likes to get stuck in and at times in the Premiership, this (aah what's the word...you know what i mean....damn its late) ______ his creative abilities. (Along the lines of nullified, outdid, made useless) True...and if there was an easy way to assess the adaptability of a player it would really help. I just think that it is possibility to base a judgement on how well a player will adapt on his strengths and weaknesses, and since these differ from player to player sometimes despite similar environments one player might adapt far better than another. I hope you get what I'm trying to say...its kinda late and I can't word my sentences too well...its kinda like an environment vs. innate ability thing. Maybe I shouldn't elaborate on it too much, coz it might take another four pages to discuss it but simply put....i agree that a player's initially playing environment affects his adaptation to another playing environment, but the degree to which the player is able to adapt often depends on his innate abilities. Right, I agree with you on this point...like I've said, the criteria need to be the players strengths and weaknesses, and determination. That's the main way you can speculate if a player will fit in or not. Caution is good. And almost necessary now since we really can't afford another Veron. I just think that supposing Chelsea launch a very high bid for Essien and we can't outbid them...and we desperately need a Keane replacement, no doubt about that....we're probably going to have to take a risk of some sort. There aren't many potential Keane replacements out there, especially in terms of availability, and if one of the only remaining options is a South American player who has never played in the Dutch League or Premiership, but has the Premiership qualities, then I hope Fergie doesn't rule out signing him based on Veron, Forlan and Kleberson. Of course he should carefully assess the players abilities and all that, but I'm just worried that we'll be bogged down by past failures - and that ideally shouldn't happen. Anyway, good night mac...how's the weather down under?...gotta go to bed.
Why don't you think that it's vice versa? It's not that South Americans don't want to play in the Premiership, it's that many Premiership teams do not want to see South Americans there? As Mac said - there is a reason for the sample size being low - lack of success and anticipation of failure. Besides the fact that you are oversimplyfying my argument, you are not making any point whatsoever. Forlan is the best scorer in La Liga. He scored more than Ronaldo, more than Baptista or Torress or any other "star". Would you argue that he became a star while he was in Manchester and he played great here? Or that he's still not a star? Please tell me how Joacquin can be considered a "star", but not Forlan? Kleberson was a member of the World Cup winning team and he played 5 games there, and he started the World Cup final. Do you think Kevin Philips would've gotten a chance to start in the world cup had he been from Brazil? No, seriously. If Scolari said that he planned to build his team in 2006 around Kleberson, does it count for someting? Anything? Or is it equivalent of saying that he wants to build a team around Philips? You know, when a young kid touches a hot stove, he would think twice before touching it again. It's not just because South Americans do not want to play here, it's also because the clubs in the Premiership don't want to risk. And I have no idea what you tried to prove with the whole keeper argument. I said on numerous occasions that only attacking players were in the discussion. And I suggest you read all of the posts before making an argument, since most of the points made by you were addresses in previous posts.
DID YOU KNOW? A peanut is not a nut but a legume closely related to beans and lentils. Wow, know we know. And knowing is half the battle.
Then you just have too much free time on your hands - writing in threads which do not interest you. Seriously, just make an effort reading more posts before posting anything. Heinze was never discussed here. He would have been better than he was in La Liga. I'll let you try to figure out why.
Try again. Only think this time. Oh, I know. You're being conveniently selective. There's a term for it in statistics. Its called bull$hit. As you're wrong, I don't need to.
Players from a top 3 league are expensive. Why would you buy a player from La Liga (as a poorer club in the EPL) or Italy or another English club when you can buy a Scandinavian or Dutch etc, for a half, maybe even a quarter of the price? This arguement is about top quality players not average ones..no mid-tier club can entice a top quality player from La Liga. It is only in the past 2seasons that La Liga players have actually opened their doors and invited moves to PL. We'll see what their success rate is in time. Kevin Philips scored 30goals in a Premiership season...once...does that put him on a level with Ruud or Henry or Shearer? Forlan is no star yet. Let's see him repeat his tally over 2more years. All the other players you mention are established La Liga stars. Forlan is not a star. He is a one-season wonder, for now. By proving that when he is on form he is superior to any other RW in Spain over a number of seasons Things change very quickly in football. If Philips had retained his 30goal form over a few seasons he would be a world star now. If Kleberson had taken his game with the Selcao up after the WC then forseeably the point could've stood. He didn't. Whose to say Kleberson didn't have the form of his life at '02 in a one off? Please provide me with links quoting EPL managers with these profound statements. Harry Redknapp made it abundantly clear why he and many other smaller clubs do not touch top3 league players - price. Oh ok... so let's call Forlan Taibi and have Ronaldo and Adriano as replacements for Casillias and Buffon..yea, that makes a huge difference.