If that referee in the story had simply asked about your experience and level of games officiated, there would have been no problems. The center was totally off-base and deserved to be reprimanded for his actions. Since I work games with a range of different officials (first-year rec all the way up to national officials once or twice a year), I'll definitely alter my pre-game to suit the occasion from now on. This has been a good thread to review and reflect upon.
That was actually the almost unanimous opinion of most of the refs I discussed it with at the time. Pull up a chair and crack open a soda. See what the guy does next. Go complain? Sure. I'll wait here. You tell your story, I'll tell mine. And you hit upon the same question I had: if he felt that I was so obviously and egregiously wrong on the interp, then he had every right to wave it off. Nothing easier. I would have asked him about it but I was busy leaving at that point.
If they tune out my 3 minute (max) pregame - which is about double the longest I've ever receive - we have a problem. My talk about offside generally is simple - slow flag, stick with second last defender, your call for both position and advantage, and when to bring the flag back down. 20 seconds, tops. I never tell them to run before the game (which is an expected part of the job) unless I've run into them at least twice before and they've failed to do so. Honestly, the best ARs I've had were two 15 year-olds when I was doing a U13 Cup game (only time ARs are used below U16). My pregame was pretty much normal, but these guys were sharp - gave them a very solid thumbs up to the assignor I do plan to revise my pregame - I'll use the Class 3 (not USSF - you won't be seeing me doing MLS games anytime soon - or ever) I have coming up just under two months to get suggestions from others going for promotion. I think I treat my ARs with respect - I tell them to call fouls if they see it, some general guidelines (make sure it is a significant foul, especially for penalty kicks), explain my view of handling (we have a pretty divergent opinions here), and tell them to wave me over if they are getting flack from the sidelines (this apparently is an area where some CRs don't handle well - unacceptable when you are dealing with teenaged ARs).
Fouling patterns? Hoo boy. Referees are now discussing fouling patterns pre-game?? WTF is a fouling pattern?? A foul is a foul no? So you are telling me that Referees and Assistant Referees are cluttering their minds anticipating fouling patterns?? Jeez Louise! Just watch the play and stay in proper position. Make the calls you see. OK? And another thing. If it isn't clearly offside don't raise the GD flag!!
Being ignorant of a concept utilized at the professional level does not mean it should be disregarded as clutter. Professional teams analyze where poor matchups will occur and utilize tactics to prevent their opponent from capitalizing on them. Part of those tactics include when to foul, how hard to foul, and who should foul. To be a professional, a referee must anticipate those tactics, be in position to recognize them when they occur, and be mentally prepared to punish accordingly. The referee also needs to be aware of any history between the teams and bad blood between players ahead of time so that any signs of unsporting antics can be controlled before it turns into a fight. Further, certain players are more apt to commit a certain type of foul when they are beat by the opponent. Valakari on Dallas pretty much fouls every single time he is beat. Knowing that he commits more fouls than any other player better prepares the referee to watch his actions very closely. Not to mention that some players are extremely good in concealing certain types of fouls. They know that if a referee is not in a specific position they can sneak in a shirt pull or handful of shorts just enough to disposses their opponent illegally and not get caught (Guevara comes to mind). It is true that any well-trained referee can simply step out onto the pitch and call every major foul committed with no preparation beforehand. Unfortunately, it is the accumulation of many minor fouls that go unpunished that frustrate the players and lead to violent play and fights. To referee at the professional level you have to be intimately aware of even the smallest of infringements the players commit, or seemingly out of nowhere you will have a fight on your hands and be left with no clue as to why. You also won't get a phone call for games in the future.
Paul Smith, the New Zealand AR at the 2002 World Cup, tells a really interesting tale of how long Collina takes for his pre-match discussion. Collina takes you into a room where he has the field of play layed out on a board with every player on both sides listed. He has analyzed how he believes both teams will perform and has determined where the danger zones are and these are marked on board. His instructions to the ARs includes an analysis of what he is expecting, details of how he wants the ARs to monitor those danger zones, and an instruction for the ARs to press the button on the RF flag even if it is not required - ball goes out for a goal kick with no players anywhere near the ball, for example - as he wants to "make sure you are still awake". It is probably why he is the best.
Well, soccertom, I was going to rip into you, but statesman did it first. Of course there are fouling patterns and we refs need to be aware of it. Unless of course, you don't mind getting fouled every second because you are the best player on the team. Just think every ref at the local league take you into a room before a match and do that, wouldn't it be weird? Collina is a person more dedicated to the sport than any PLAYER I know. That is the reason he is the best. He is dedicated and knows his stuff.
Fouling patterns! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Hee Hee! Ha! Ha! Fouling patterns?? At your level? Pleese get over yourselves. Oh I understand what fouling patterns are. Believe me I do. What I'm saying is most of the matches you folks will work will not and do not require andy discussion or preparation for the occurence of fouling patterns. Now you guys are comparing yourself to the World's most recognized Referee. Give me a break. Perhaps that preparation works well for Mr. Collina who operates as the Worlds best at his craft and perhaps due to his excellence at his craft he has taken preparation to the next level. I'm not talking about Collina. I'm talking about a whole bunch of mostly incompetant lower level Refs like the one described by Bill Archer. Listen to me and hear me. You Refs need to simplify what you are doing. No wonder you people make so many GD mistakes. Like I said before get yourselves in good calling position stay with the play make the correct calls and call what you see. Fouling patterns... God help us players.
There is a wide variety of experience on this forum. Some have reffed at a high level and some are just starting, and would like to advance. Most of us handle adult and/or U16 & 19 boys. These groups may play like gentlemen or drunken sailors(no offense to sailors). Any information I have on either team as either a CR or an AR is of use. Fouling patterns like frequent late contact, known grabbing, pushing, and shirt-pulling experts, divers, etc. are a help at this level. Doing U12 rec girls, this rarely comes up. But a referee needs to be prepared for the unexpected. You never know when a U12 rec coach was previously an WWE coach. I've probably screwed up more calls in the last 30 years than you'll ever make, and I get 90+% right(or close). But I'm still learning and trying to improve. Suggestions and techniques from this forum are valuable to us all.
Statesman, I'm not ignorant of the concept of fouling patterns. I'm crystal clear in my understanding of them. I was being sarcastic in my earlier post. The point I was trying to make was most Referees shouldn't be cluttering their focus point of concentration thinking about the "fouling patterns" of an individual player or a teams fouling pattern as part of it's defensive structure. You Refs need to simply, 1) Stay with the play. Concentrate. 2) Establish good calling position. 3) Make the correct call. 4) Understand the game. I'm a player that has been playing constantly over 41 years at high levels. I'll admit right off the bat that, 1) Refereeing can be a very challenging task. 2) Most of the good to excellent Refs in my experience are former players usually good players. Some competent Refs have never played the game. Those nonplaying highly competent Refs seem to be few and far between. 3) In my opinion the pool of excellent Refs is very shallow in comparison to the deep pool of playing talent.
I suppose if it's "good information" it could be helpful if the information is used correctly. Knowing what I know about a whole bunch of Refs I wonder. Let me give you an example. Mr. AR tells the CR that # 10 on the Green Team has a propensity to foul opponents after the play. You the CR watch #10 real close all game long. Even after the play you keep an eye on that #10. All game long #10 plays like an Angel. In the meantime you the CR may have missed 2, 3 or 4 other fouls or transgressions because you were interested in the "fouling patterns" of the Green Teams #10. After the game the CR tells the AR that # 10 was very sportsmen like all game. The AR says oh yeah I was confusing him with another guy. All I'm saying is keep things simple. The game is right in front of you. Concentrate on what you see and what you know. I'll leave now. Good luck!
This is why I wish they would add a simple upgrade path for level 8s. Over 90% of all refs are level 8, but there is such a wide range of skill and knowledge in that one grade. Make a grade where you have worked 1 year with 20 Centers and 20 ARs, and pass the recert test with an 85% or 90%. No extra work, no reason NOT to upgrade. Then at least the center knows if they are dealing with a brand new ref, or with some one who has been doing it at least a little while and should know the basics. No guarantees, of course, but at least we separate the BRAND NEW refs from the ones who have shown a little extra dedication and knowledge.
Well, as you stated yourself: Only the thickest of sarcasm really comes across as such in text. Perhaps using a bit more tact in your posts might prove more successful instead of child-like gibberish. If only refereeing were that simple. Back 41 years ago those are four good tips to follow, but with the level of game a few of us officiate these days they are hardly sufficient. To group the seasoned veterans in with the young newcomers with such an over-generalization won't win you any points with the posters here. Not to be whimsical, but... gee, ya think? Perhaps we could use more constant players of 41 years at high levels to go through the certification and join the ranks instead of belittling them on an internet forum. Just a thought.
I'm still having too much fun playing to become a Ref. God Bless you though! I promise you if any Referee masters my four good tips they will become excellent Refs. Keep it simple. It's a simple game played best by intelligent people. Jump on the Bandwagon and quit making things so complicated. Ya feelin me here?
Tom, it's a shame that you are resorting to "trolling" tactics on the board in an apparent attempt to bait officials. Unfortunately, attitudes like yours are why many people hold referees in such low esteem. Let me put things this way. If you were playing a team that was well-known for either diving or for tactically fouling on a regular basis, wouldn't you want the referees to know about these behaviors? Wouldn't you want the referees to be more aware of a team's propensity to foul your best player so those referees can be ready to card for persistent infringement? Wouldn't you want the referees to know that the other team's #9 has a habit of diving whenever he takes a step in the penalty area? As an official, I want as much information as I can get before the game. I wouldn't go into an important business meeting or a graduate school examination unprepared. Refereeing is a profession, and part of being a professional is being physically and MENTALLY prepared for your duty. Any information we have to help us prepare for the match is useful - it helps us go out there and call the fouls that need to be called.
I hate when I'm at a tourny w/ a new ref i dont know... and he/she give me the longest pre-game and talk to me like im some kind of 5 year old... I'm not stupid... how can i get them to not judge me? look older?
My best advice would be to ask an intelligent question or make the referee aware of some piece of relevant information about the teams, if you are familiar with them, early in the pregame. On the other hand, I wouldn't look at a longer and more detailed pregame as a referee trying to talk down to you. The best thing that you can do to get a referee's trust is to do a great job during the first half, be positive in your dealings with him, and make yourself part of the team. You're not necessarily being judged. The referee likely just wants to make sure you both are on the same page so you can be prepared for situations likely to come up. Another thing to keep in mind about the pregame is that it can be where you build some chemistry and a sense of team with your crew. When you have that, the game will be a lot smoother and more fun. As a referee, you can concentrate on your job without worrying about the ARs and this sort of thing will be very evident to the participants and assessors if they are present. So, while it might not be necessary to discuss fouling patterns during a u-12 game it is important to discuss the basics and build a team. I can say from experience that the more understanding you have with your crew and the more you know about the higher level youth teams and amateur clubs you ref, the better prepared you'll be and that will enhance your performance. The more you can do to focus on what goes on between the lines and what you should expect, the better you will do and the better you will want to do for your teammates. If you're doing lower level games where you don't know much about the teams, then your pregame should likely include questions about the people you're working with like whad do you do; where are you from; how long have you been a referee; and anything else that helps you get to know the person. If you want a real life example I can give one from last week. I worked four games at the region 1 championships with another poster here. The fact that we got along well made things much easier. The fact that we passed on information about the teams we were reffing to eachother and what we expected to happen allowed us to anticipate where we needed to be and be prepared to do the right things when needed. The later can't be underestimated when you work three preliminary games a day over three days in searing heat and still be able to work semis and finals. When you have a good idea what to expect, the three of you can conserve energy so you can do a good job as the week goes on. It really isn't different from what players need to know. If players know they have several games over a few days and know what to expect from opponents, they will perform better. As referees the better prepared we are, the better the service you do to the game. I doubt every referee here is doing the highest level games available, but several are and this experience has a direct affect on the development of other referees, regardless of how applicable it is to the average game. If the game really was as simple as soccertom wants to believe, then we wouldn't need coaches or referees. As fast and as astute as today's players are, the pregame is a big step in making sure you get the little things right that could lead to an easy game spiraling out of control.
My experience is somewhat limited as an AR and as a center with ARs, because I have worked in leagues where you normally fly solo. Now I am starting to do more centers with younger ARs though. Initially I tried to give a decent pre-game "speech", but now I am trying to make my pre-game interactive, as in "How would you all like to handle X situation" and talk it through. It takes longer, but you get a good feel for your ARs, sometimes you get new ideas, and the ARs are less likely to feel that you are talking down to them. Ultimately the CR has to make the call on how to proceed, but I find the ARs tend to pay more attention when you ask them for their opinion.
Big sigh. I'm not trolling Sir. Quite frankly I'm sorry I popped in to your precious forum. Obviously you Referees are a thin skinned bunch. In summary most of the Refs in my playing experience need to sharpen your in game calling skills as opposed to concerning themselves with "potential fouling patterns, tactically fouling on a regular basis, a team's propensity to foul your best player or players that have a habit of diving in the Penalty Area." Quite frankly all of the above referenced transgressions fall under your powers of observance. You should be able to ascertain all of those potential game situations during the flow of each individual game without difficulty. I mean all of those potential things are happening directly in front of your eyes are they not?? You as Police Officers of the match should always be sensitive to these potential game issues but you should not be tainting your decision making with preconceived notions of what an individual player or team will do. Let me give you an example of how this could get you into trouble during a game. Let's say defensive player #5 on the Red Team has a reputation of being a hard nosed player with a high foul rate. Well of course you Refs will Highlight # 5 in your pregame instructions. You will put your heads together and say "watch that #5 real close. He likes to slide tackle from behind and he can get his elbows up during aerial battles and he likes to shirt tug and blah blah blah yadda yadda yadda. You know the drill. Now follow me closely here. The Yellow Team has a clever forward that used to play in another league against old #5 on the Red Team. Well Yellow Team's # 10 knows all about Red Team's # 5 and his hard play reputation. You Refs may or may not know much about Yellow's clever # 10's ways of baiting Red's # 5 but he has been doing it for years. So you may miss # 10's subtle falls and dives because you folks are all up in # 5's grill because he is a known antagonist. So Yellow # 10 gets away with things. Red # 5 is unfairly being taken advantage of. You Refs are being fooled by the clever antics of Yellow # 10 and poor Red # 5 has been unfairly targeted by an inept Reffing crew. Perhaps the game may turn during interactions between Red # 5 and Yellow # 10. Now to complicate things add the other 20 Players into the mix and all the potential situations that can unfold during a match. Yeah remember Yellow's # 9 complaining about Red # 5 treatment of his running mate Yellow #10. And of course Yellow Team's Coach has been giving you Refs an earful about hard nosed # 5's treatment of his players and blah blah blah. You see the team's know about each others propensities and habits a lot better than you Ref's do. They will try to influence you throughout the game. What I'm saying is keep things simple. Don't try to outthink the game or the players. See the play. Call the play you see. OK? You shouldn't in my opinion be going into games with preconceived notions about what entire teams may or may not be doing during the game. The only real message I have for you all is to keep things simple for yourselves and you will all call a better game. You can have all the pregame instruction sessions you want for all I care as a player but keep in mind things happen real fast on the pitch. Most times you need to be able to make decisions very quickly. I'm suggesting the less clutter you have the better. Consequently if you are completely focused on the action in front of you, you should be in good position to make the appropriate call during the match. But hey what do I know? I'm just a lowly Player. The game is all about the Refs right? A Player of my experience couldn't teach you wise Referees a cotton pickin thing right?
When I work with AR's I haven't seen before (or don't remember), I'll try to ask some questions about their experience. "How long you been at this? Ever worked this age group before? OK, then you know that [insert point to be made], right?" Then I'll confirm that offside is their call, I won't doubt it if they call it because they have the position - just make sure that there really is involvement. And remind them that their call is easier to sell if they are in the right position. Ask them to help me with fouls, but try to get a feeling first for what I will be calling in that game, based on how the players want to play that day. From that short interview, I can probably get a feeling for how my game is going to go. If the AR is responsive to me, I'm going to have a better feeling for what she will be doing in the game. If they have the attitude of, "Yeah, whatever, where's my money?" then I know I'll have to be working harder that day, to check up on what they are or aren't seeing and calling. Sometimes at the half we'll have another little chat. "OK, the two #7's have been going at it a little this half. If they're playing the same position in the second half, they'll be right in front of you. I've already warned both of them, so if you see anything, call it. We also need to watch the tall girl with the ponytail - she seems to have a tendency to get frustrated." That's the profiling Tom doesn't want us to do, I guess. OK, but if you've got an idea that certain players will be more likely to be sneaky, will be more likely to foul, you are likely to catch them if you pay attention to them when you have the chance. Not to the point of ignoring all the rest of the players. But to paying attention to what is going on out there. If you can gain some advance intelligence about potential situations before the game starts, you won't have to spend the first half learning the patterns. You can recognize the pattern the moment it begins. Isn't that part of being in position to make the call, what Tom wants us to do?
Tom, for someone who has played the game for 41 years you're being at least a little naive. Being in the right place and doing the right thing doesn't happen by accident. Being prepared and calling out specific tactics and players does not equate to a narrowing of focus. It is simply highlighting a particular tendancy to get the team on the same page. It isn't a licence to ignore everything else. Because things happen fast, you need to know where extra care needs to apply. If there is a problem with one specific player, you'll catch hime being baited and if a referee is concious enough to mention particular tendancies during a pregame, he'll be observant enough to pick out other details and adjust as the game goes on. You're making a dangerous assumption here and that is that a referee's game will remain static as the match progresses. Do you not think it will be obvious to anyone with a feel for the game who previously unidentified problem players will be? Do you really think not discussing which players accept contact and want advantage and which ones do not is not a help? Do you think discussing a team's propensity to play a possession game and use certain parts of the field more than others or whether the team is more direct doesn't help a referee be where he needs to be? What about discussing an offside trap, cooperative players, or team's tendancy too try to game and con the referee? How about discussing how to communicate certain pieces of information during the match? Should we not discuss what we saw and make adjustments at half time? Players do. You assume that referees are like a team that insists on attacking down the left flank even when nine players defend it and leave the right wide open. Trust me, you don't become a better referee by being less prepared. You don't get to where you need to be by not knowing what to expect. What you have observed is the result of referees not preparing or of doing a good job seeing the game evolve. If I know you like to run your mouth and get stuck in, I can deal with that in the fifth minute and not need to send you off or watch a player break your leg in the 85th. If I know you like to use contact to your advantage to bounce of challenges and get into better positions then I delay when I see something I feel I need to whistle until I'm sure you gain no advantage. If I know you're an attacker like Carlos Ruiz who likes to initiate contact, I make sure I pay attention so I don't miss the first foul and only call the retaliation. If I know you have a player who gets a lot of touches and who has a lot of skill, I know to protect him. If I know you have a very calm and collected captain, then I know I can use him to help you calm down and stay in the game. There's a lot more going on here than showing up and ruinning around with a whistle. Preparation and a pregame is about giving you as a player the game YOU deserve. Its not always easy to call what one sees when he doesn't know where to watch. Instructions and preparation are not clutter, It actually calrifies what you see. You had to see the Collina example on here. That is why people consider him the best referee in the world. He has a feel for the game and does so well because he knows the game, the players, and the teams. If the referees you deal with put 1/10 of that preparation into your games you would be shocked at the results. Not doing so is like asking your team to go out onto the field without discussing who will play where and what your strategy will be.
I've done a lot of games with a lot of different AR's and CR's, from 1st game grade 8's to several FIFA Referees. This discussion reminds me of the blind men describing an elephant. They're all touching the elephant, but in different places, so their experience is very earnestly being reported by them as the only true description of an elephant. The pre-game needs to create a referee team for this game, getting all of the members of the team on the same page. If I am working with people that I don't know, I will need to share more information with them, whether it's what I need from them or what they can expect from me. It isn't a matter of them being teenagers and I'm not, it's a matter of how much experience they have at this level of play, whether they are 15 or 45. I don't know that until we start the discussion. If the AR's don't have much experience, I want to be sure they remember the basics. If they are past that point, then we need to talk about the things that will enhance communication, may or may not happen but we should be prepared to handle if they do occur, etc. At the very highest levels, that may include discussion of previous experiences with the teams, the coaches and the players. If, for example, one team will be very happy with a tie but the other team has to win, do you think that will affect how the teams will play? Of course it will. And that information needs to be shared among all the members of the referee team so the whole team can do the best possible job. If I'm the AR or the 4th, I know that I am there in a secondary role, but I can make the referee team look very good or very poor, depending on my performance. I need to be clear what I can do that will help us have a good game. If the referee is telling me things that I already know, that's fine. There is still no excuse for tuning out the referee or getting angry with him for repeating what you already know. Better that they cover something you already know than they don't cover something that you should know but don't.
You make some good points but some of the above is a bunch of worthless BS that to me explains why so many Referees struggle mightily. I'm not being naive. I truly do undertand the nuances of the game. I do understand your pregame discussions and preparation. Some of the content may be highly relevant and some of it is worthless. Do you understand my points? Keep things simple. Let me explain a few things to you, 1) Every player at the level of play you are intimating accepts contact and wants the advantage rule. 2) Every player at the level of play you are intimating who gets a lot of touches and who has a lot of skill, wants the Ref to protect him. I have a little tip for you. Those players with a lot of skill usually reside in the midfield or up top during a game some of them even where a number 10 shirt. Put that in your next pregame discussion. While your at it add in the fact the speedy players often times play out on the flanks and they are real fast runners. Sometimes they start their runs to get behind the defense and you need to make sure that you don't call them Offside if they really aren't. Thanks. 3) Most attacking players like Carlos Ruiz at the level of play you are intimating like to initiate contact in order to feel their defenders. That is a given. Remember it. Know it. Live it. 4) Every player at the level of play you are intimating wants to use contact to their advantage to bounce off challenges and get into better attacking positions. Remember it. Know it. Live it. You don't need to discuss it during pregame. OK? 5) Most teams at the level of play you are intimating have a very calm and collected Captain. At least they should. That is the job description for the most part. I know because I checked my Captain Manual. Captains should be very diplomatic and have good leadership qualities. 6) Instructions and preparation are sometimes not clutter, they may actually clarify what you see or they may cloud what you think you see. That can and does work both ways.. 7) Most Teams at the level of play you are intimating prefer to play a possession game. Do you think they would rather forfeit possesion to the other team. Sure one team may be the clearly the stronger team in possesion. These things should be fairly obvious to seasoned Professionals such as yourself. No? 8) Offsides traps? Please lets not go there as we all know the topic of Offside is a giant clusterfug of epic proportions as it relates to Referees. Needless to say I'm all for preparation if it's used judiousiscly. My main suggestion is when you step on the field have a clear mind and sense of purpose get and stay into proper calling position and make clear concise calls that hopefully are correct. It sounds like all of you Ref's should get high marks for your "pregame due diligence and preparation discussions" yet in my mind you often times get below acceptable marks for your in game performances. Why is that? Please don't refer to Mr. Collina again. Collina is the industries best and most distingushed representitive. Often times he is the exception and not the rule. Good luck!