Argentine NT News, Stats, Players 2009-2010 (R)

To add to this, We all know Messi cuts to the left whenever he gets the ball and then in Barcelona there is Alves who fills that RF position so that the defenders can't outnumber Messi by contracting to the middle. At the same time Abidal/Maxwell and Iniesta makes room on the left side.

But with Argentina, When Messi cuts to the middle, we have Di Maria to make those runs on the left but there will be a whole lot of space because we play with Gutierrez(spelling?) and basically speaking he is more defender than Puyol let alone Alves. He can't exploit the space made by Messi.

I don't know why it is sooooo hard for Maradona and some Argetines to understand that with different set up players, coach, and formations players can look completly different.

If we are to get best out of Messi then the first one to leave the NT should be Gutierrez( i know he works hard and all, but he is not the right player to play on that position, instead we might use him as LB).

We can play Messi right behind Higuain and play Di Maria in LF and Delgado/Aguero/Tevez/Perroti/Zabaleta/Zanetti/........ in RF. Like this:

-----------------Higuain----------
Di Maria---------Messi---------Delgado

----------Veron/Banega----Mascherano

Heinze------Samuel-----Demi-----Gutierez/Zabaleta/Zanetti


But i am quite sure Maradona will never use these players, he might use the formation though( but without right set up players any formation is useless). The thing that worries me most is we might ruin Messi's chance to shine as Brazil ruined Ronaldinho's in WC 2006 by playing him in the wrong position.

 

Leomessi, Maradona is not going to change his options and who he's been working with. It's far too late to call up some of these people. It's ingrained in rock like 200,000 millions years of eroding rock that Heinze and Otamendi will play. The only thing reasonably suited for Maradona and his staff to call up are people who have played with some action in Maradona's squad. Banega, Zabaleta, and I think Garay have all played in his squad. Also they have all done well this season for their clubs. Those are the things Maradona's looking at, and I think he will call these players up because he knows they deserve a spot on the team, but don't expect them to be starters.

Milito for Barcelona will not be called, because then he will be taking spots from Heinze, Garay, Samuel and maybe Insua?

 

I've always thought this but at some point there has to be a good game from Messi.

 

I understand all these points and agree with some and disagree with others but the point I'm trying to get at is this.

When Messi receives the ball in optimal conditions on the NT, because we can't say that he has never received the ball well, he for some reason has poor finishing. What about playing for the NT causes him to make mistakes. Is it a mental factor? Does he need a psychologist? I'm not kidding about this, Boca has been using a psychologist to great success!

In the game against Brazil he had at least two chances to shoot on goal. It was his famous move where he slides across the top of the box from right to left. But he just couldn't score.

This past game against Stuttgart he was surrounded by 4 defenders and he still got his shot off and SCORED. If I'm not mistaken against Brazil at worst he had 3 players around.

I want Messi to break out and have a killer game. I want to see Messi humiliate defense BUT WITH THE ARGENTINE SHIRT NOT BARCA. Nothing against Barcelona but if Messi is Argentine shouldn't we expect him to shine for us?

 

But didn't you see how many great opportunities he missed against Stuttgart? Messi is not the most effective player out there. He scores brilliant goals and he scores many of them but he misses too. In Barcelona too, his most shots used to end up on defender's legs but recently he has improved his shots.

It might be hard to notice, but Messi has improved from last season. His passes, shots, freekicks and his off the ball movements have all been better. What we have to do is, play him on the right position with right set up players so that he can terrorize the opposing defences full 90 mins which will definetly result in goals.

 

I have less and less doubt that Aguero is the one who will fit the better to Maradona's system... have people seen his second goal yesterday against Sporting Lisbon?

The only time Aguero played in Maradona's system was against Russia last summer and he had his best game in NT by far, coupled with Milito upfront.

 

Yes it was Aguero's best game. Maybe for the 3rd game of the 1st round. lol lol

 

Gabby Milito deserves to be there. He hasn't had a bad game yet for Barca since coming back and he already surpassed Marquez in the depth chart.

 

O come on there has been.

 

Europa is going to be exciting for Argentines.
http://www.uefa.com/uefaeuropaleague/news/newsid=1465863.html#uefa+europa+league+draw+full

Benfica vs Liverpool
(Argentina offence vs Argentina defence)

Valencia vs Atletico Madrid

(Banega vs Aguero)


The Europa is more exciting this year than the CL with a lot of top class teams facing off since the start. While a lot of garbage unknowns facing off in the CL.


Then the winner of Benfica-Liverpool / Valencia A.Madrid face off against each other.


Benfica vs A.Madrid or Benfica vs Valencia

Liverpool vs Valencia or Liverpool vs A.Madrid.



Semi finals are interesting. Either way it could have gone no better for position in terms of enjoying Argentines eliminate each other in groups stages since the last round and on.

 

Well said, we need a player on the right wing who can at least cross the ball. Sure will not happen with Gutierrez and Otamendi.

There was a couple times when Gutierrez was given the ball with space on the flank as a result of the defense collapsing on Messi, and he had no idea what to do with it.

 

Take this as what it is...just a question. Do you watch Messi play week in and week out at Barca? I catch at least 60% of his games. I can tell you that Messi IS NOT the penalty box assassin that you're making him out to be at Barca. He's improved by miles in that department, starting really last season...but it's not like he scores a goal like he scored against the Germans EVERY SINGLE GAME. What you're saying would be more valid IF he batted 100% in those situations with Barca, whereas he never converted them with the NT. Or better yet, if you could show me through facts that his conversion rate is significantly different in those similar situations...Using an isolated incident or two does not really constitute proof.

Messi does not need a psychologist to help him pull off some moves on the NT. The only issue is to design a system and surround him with players that can extract the full potential out of him.

 

I would like to add to this discussion. Another thing to consider is how often Barcelona is on the offensive as compared to the NT. It stands to reason that with the amount of possession that Barcelona maintains in any given match that they're going to create multiple scoring opportunities. This gives Messi many more chances to create something as opposed to when he's playing for the NT and has to start creating something from midfield. Anyways, you understand what I'm getting at.

 

Clearly. And not to underestimate the effect on a defense that constant pressure has. At some point, you're dealing with a lot of tired and mentally drained defenders, prone to mistakes. It is certainly easier to get by defenders in such a state, who already may not be as talented as what Messi faces with the NT.

 

Yes he's had good games but not at the same level as Barcelona. He had a good game against Venezuela for the WCQ and a great goal against Mexico for the Copa America but I can remember others. I'm sure there were a few others but I can't bring them to memory right now.

Another thing that is troublesome about Messi is that he has been playing for the Argentine NT since 2005. That's FIVE years. Come on, in FIVE YEARS you have to have found your rhythm with your fellow players.

 

I agree with you that he's gotten much better over the years but Messi was always regarded as a game changer. They nicked him the Mesias or did they not?

While he doesn't score Golazos every week he does score more for Barca than he does for La Seleccion.

Like I mentioned in another post. Messi has been playing with this team for 5 years. If he hasn't clicked with the team yet....??"

 

Don't get me wrong when i say this, but I think if Messi was playing for Spain right now, we would see more performances like he has for Barcelona, and that's solely based on the tactical differences between our team and theirs at the moment.

 

To be fair, Messi played 2 games with the NT in 2005, one of which was what, a 5 minute debut before being sent off? And the other was in a match where he was subbed in with 10 minutes left. The rest of the matches in 2006(or atleast most) were under Pekerman where I thought he did superb. The rest, well, we know what happened.

I've been doing some research on several of our players(all matches played, goals scored, etc...) and here's what we have with Messi in terms of goals.



http://i39.tinypic.com/eq14qf.png
If anyone needs, I have the full list of matches Messi played with the NT, as well as all the goals scored by Maradona, Riquelme, Crespo and others with the NT.

Back to Messi. We can see that 2007 was a big year for him in terms of goal scoring with the NT. And I'm crediting that to the formation Basile used(well basically continued from what Pekerman started) as well as the players around him. At times, he's come up pretty clutch for us, scoring when needed(Uruguay at home, Venezuela away and Colombia away, even if we did lose that match). Not to mention against Spain where the defence was absolutely horrible(even if it was a penalty, he was calm under whatever pressure there was and scored it).

We can all sit here, chat and pass the bucket when it comes to debating on Messi not showing up with the NT, but Messi is only 6 goals away from entering the Top 10 goalscoring in the history of the NT and he's only 22. Only 6... and he isn't even an out and out striker. What about the other #10's that we've had or players that were supposed to lead this team to glory? Ortega, D'Alessandro, Aimar, Riquelme, anyone? Fact is, none of them can single handidly(or were single handidly able) to lead the team to glory like Maradona did. Nor should they have to do it alone. They need to have the right players and the right formations to succeed. Right now, Messi isn't surrounded with that.

Guaranteed if Tevez doesn't get red carded in those two games and if he scores that penalty against Colombia, this conversation wouldn't be where it is today. Not because Messi isn't underachieving, but because those mistakes by Tevez made it that much more difficult for the team to qualify for the World Cup. So naturally, the blame goes to the person who's supposed to be your best player. It was the case with Veron, Riquelme and now Messi. Let's not forget Messi is the #10 and with this #10 comes great responsibility and pressure. The pressure got to Ortega, it got to Riquelme and so on. Did Messi ask to be the #10? Last I heard, he initially said no, but later accepted. So of course he deserves some of the blame, but to be in the position he is in now(in terms of pressure) at that age, people need to realise it's incredibly tough. Especially when you have your own fans turning against you(no one here in particular, just a few people in Argentina).

 

So he should be punished because of expectations thrown on him by people falling in love with his potential? And now, that's he's considered the world's best player from having proven himself to be so, we should condemn him because of falling short of expectations?

Obviously, since he plays more for Barca. If you want to make the argument that he scores at a higher rate there, then you're obviously right. But I'll answer in the same way that the conditions are not the same or close to being the same. The shame of it all is that Messi HAS HAD some good times with the NT (but in my opinion, he miscalculated in thinking that life w/o Roman would be better). Who knows now what could have been?

That's a good point...on the surface. But let's consider that from the time he made his debut, it's not quite 5 years yet. Also, 5 years isn't 5 seasons. Also, consider that he played just a couple of games in 2007, at 17 years old.
The more important number is 43, the number of caps. But when you consider that it's been spread out over 3 coaching regimes and plagued by instability in the team, that puts it into perspective a bit more.

Not that I am a saying that Messi is blameless...far from it. I just think that it's been one instance after another of some trying to make him into something he's not. And that is unfair.

 

Another quality goal for Pipita. Messi/Higuain have a combined 53 goals I believe in all competitions for their clubs. This is just insane, now lets wait an see if they can do it for us .