Are we a giant? If we're not, how close to being one are we?

Great post Youngstars87, I agree 100%. Again I repeat, I'd throw away the Carling and FA Cups in an instant to just win league and CL titles.

 

Yup, I know all this but I just don't understand why that original poster would put Liverpool in a tier below Madrid, Munich etc. It doesn't really fit the criteria he set when you consider they've won european cups in the past and have been recently successful in the CL as well.

 

Should I put it in bold if my definition is different than yours?

Other than your first point and third points, which are arbitrary, your list is not so specific and difficult to fit in. For me, being a giant has a lot to do with perception. I don't think United is perceived to be a giant, which is why its not. Real Madrid is perceived as being the giant, with Milan probably being next. Liverpool, for all their history, is not a glamour destination for players, which I think keeps them from the top tier.

 

That's true but more or less irrelevant. It's still THE competition where Europe's BEST clubs compete. Whether smaller clubs are in and manager to win is also irrelevant, the giants of Europe, so to speak still compete and when that means Barcelona, Real Madrid, Inter, Juve, Milan, Bayern Munich, Liverpool, Arsenal, Chelsea, it's plenty to measure one's strength. Look at our team in 98/99, we faced some of the best teams there and it was more than enough to measure our strength, we were the best in Europe at the time. We were the worse team in the final but we managed to win and it didn't take away from our performances before.

As for Bayern, the same argument can be made for Madrid, as of late they haven't been quite as influential. (Although to reiterrate that Madrid will forever be a giant, even in the period when they bounced around managers and failed to win trophies they attracted some of the best talent in world football, Robinho, Gago, Diarra, RVN, Beckham, Cannavaro, etc) Historically, Bayern is a giant, they've had one side that absolutely dominated world football for a number of years and were arguably the best team in the world. They stretched that success and made the European Cup final four more times, winning once again. Not many clubs share that history and that's why they will always be giants. They don't have much pulling power but simply put they have always been and always will be an anomaly in footbnall because they are from Germany but they have managed to create that history for themselves that not many other teams outside of Italy, England, and Spain have. But if we were to make the distinct seperation and discuss present, they are not.

 

I agree with alot of what you say YS, and yes I do know my history.

I do however have to pick you up on the 4 or more CL titles to be considered a giant. Why not 3 or 5, in what rule book is 4 the magic number. Yes Bayern have been successful in the past and are no doubt still one of the biggest clubs in Europe, but with players like Ballack wanting to leave proves that they think future success lies elsewhere. I couldn't see that happening at Real. Given the choice between Juve, Liverpool, Man Utd and Bayern most players today would choose Bayern as their 4th option. I stand by original assessment, they are no longer classed as a 'giant'.

Your criteria also means that Barca are not classed as a giant, and as much as you may hate them, I think most on here would certainly class them up there

 

She got some fight in her.

If I were Manchester, I'd find a way to leave the EPL for La Liga or Serie A. Your style of play is not like the EPL's, plus being in La Liga and Serie A is far more attractive to players of latin decent.

It's impossible though. Would be damn interesting.

Madrid has won 9 to Liverpool's 5. That's why.

Throw in the fact that Madrid have won 12 more league titles, has arguable had more historical figures/sides and hasn't adopted a CL or bust mentality lately.

Suit yourself.

Your definition is describing a great side in the span of 5 years (10 a stretch). Mine is a more direct description of what an actual "Giant" would be.

My list shortens the "if's, and's or but's". It's not perfect, but I think it's fair assessment.
.

Great observation.

How do you get this "perception"? Historical dominance for decades.

True, however I honestly think if they beat Madrid in 2000, they'd of won the CL. If they won it again in 2001, they'd be considered near if not a giant.

True, plus like I said earlier, Liverpool have developed a nasty habit. They also don't win in their league.

After all "This was their year". What a year for "This" to be, eh?

 

In what rule book is anything a magic number?

I'm just think that anybody can win won, and good teams can win two. Winning three is and outstanding accomplishment, however when you've won 4 you've stumbled into new territory.

Put it like this, imagine if Manchester had won 4 instead of 2.

With Bayern, I feel it's a tricky situation for them. Because their league doesn't get the money or sponsorship Serie A, La Liga, or the EPL, sometimes get "belittled at times".

However when Ballack was wanting out he was told to go to Madrid (we made no offer) to become a legend.

Actually your wrong about that one. Our forums resident brazilian (who lives in Brazil) actually spoke about lure of joining a club for a young prospect.

He said this:

So in actuality Bayern would be just as attractive as Manchester (sure the C.R. effect would do ya'll good though). Juventus is a boring team known to play boring, and Liverpool as well adopted that style.

They are and will forever be in our shadows. Their title of "giant" is primarily due to the quality and star cast players they've had. They historical figures and sides they've produced.

 

That's simply not true. Again, Bayern is a different case than the rest of these clubs. They don't have the amount of money nor do they have the benefit of being in a top tier league anymore. Because the Bundesliga is also the youngest of the top leagus in Europe and the likes of Seria A, La Liga, and the English league are much older and more established, players from Germany have always wanted to go abroad and when the idea of professionalism was still young in Germany, players wanted to go abroad, and that was in the 60's. German clubs however have always built their teams around domestic youth and talent so as one player leaves, they raise another. Ballack has experienced everything in Germany and he wanted to play abroad. That doesn't weaken their status unless that means it reverses history somehow. Bayern also are still able to compete for some of South America's best talent, they recently got Sosa and Breno who was one of Brazil's hottest properties.

They may not be directly involved in competing for the Champions League now but in the end history will always determine where a club stands, which is why many football critics will also put Liverpool ahead of United simply because they've achieved more trophy success. In the time they dominated domestically, they also managed to bring in several European cups. United hasn't.

 

Thats the point of view of one person. He can't speak for his whole nation. Tell me, can I visit your board as your resident English person and tell you exactly how we see the footballing world.

Well, forever is a bold statement. Who knows, Barca might have double your european titles in a hundred years.

 

I'm not saying Bayern aren't a big team, just that they're on the same level as us and juventus. I think its folly to say they should be up there with Real Madrid and AC Milan.

I know you'd probably prefer to have one of your 3 supported teams (Man Utd, Liverpool, Bayern) seen as a giant, but I'm afraid it just aint happening.

 

One person who actually lives in Brazil, is Brazilian and knows how his own people think. He was speaking for the multitude, not giving his single thoughts.

I'd take his over anybody from England, due to English (American as well) people not being as in touch with the world as they are with their own environment.

We have our own English expert, however you can visit anytime as long as your nothing like busbybabes.

Seriously though, if a person can't describe how people in his environment think, then who can?

Also, please note the other reasons I described why Juventus and Liverpool would be deemed unattractive.

Well, it will always be.

Forever they will chase us and never catch us. Forever.

I don't think anybody has really said Bayern is at that level, except MrTwix69.

 

Thats what I was saying I guess I just didn't say it clearly. Anyways Europe has always been my top ambition as a fan and I think it should be within the club, and the mentality that the prem is more important than europe may have hurt us. I don't want to turn into Liverpool who do nothing in the league, but perform in Europe. I think this mentality at the club has changed recently the Hargraves signing was almost purely for Europe so we can attack 'the giants'.

 

That's just not true.

Premier League, England: $700 mln. average
2 Serie A, Italy: $490 mln.
3 Bundesliga, Germany: $389 mln.
4 La Liga, Spain: $275 mln.

 

In that respect, let's create a seperate tier for Madrid and Milan because no other team matches them. In fact, one club comes close and that's Liverpool. These are the only teams I would consider Bayern underneath simply because they achieved more. Other than that, United, Inter, Ajax, Juve aren't that much better. Like I said before, history determines where you stand, and Bayern had a side that absolutely dominated football at a time when the Bundesliga was arguably the best in Europe, they continued to make European finals and establish themselves as a side that should be taken seriously in every decade since. United and Juventus but neither have had that one side that dominated in Europe. The only thing they have in common is with Bayern is that they experienced domestic success, but I don't think that's enough to make such a seperation.

 

What are these stats from? The Bundesliga is the most well attended league in Europe, a lot of their revenue comes from that, but what youngstars was trying to say is that each club doesn't receive as much money as clubs in said leagues. German clubs don't have lucrative tv deals or don't have rich owners to supply them with money.

 

Zippy, when I said that I was referring to the dominant sides in the leagues. For La Liga, since Madrid and Barca negotiate their own individual TV deals they aren't considered in the La Liga total.

Therefore:

1. The big EPL teams get the general big money splits for all EPL sides.
2. The big Serie A teams get the general big money splits for all Serie A sides.
3. In La Liga, Madrid and Barca separate their own sponsorships (tv deals, etc.) so the league doesn't benefit off a joint structure but Madrid and Barca individually do. Why do you think Madrid, Barca (and arguably atlethi) are so rich but others are so average to poor?
4. The big Bundesliga teams however get the lowest compared to the other big teams. They have a harsh tax program (SirManchester can explain) and a structure which actually limits them from getting "Madrid level".

 

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deloitte_Football_Money_League
I wanted to do a thread about the German league underachieving so did my research.

 

O.K,i just have a soft spot for Germany because i was born there, i don't like it when people patronize and call them poor.

 

Isn't there someway we could alter the earth's weather patterns to give Greater Manchester sunny weather all year round?

 

Lol, would be funny to see Rooney and Scholes all red, all year round, i think it's culture too though which you know, maybe were just odd people.

 

Cool, but that's been a well known fact. The Bundesliga remains the only league not entirely corrupted by business owners and tv deals. Unfortunately that's also why its clubs haven't been able to compete with the bigger clubs in Europe.

 

Well the first step to correcting a problem is realizing you have one. I'm proud of you.

 

page Al Gore

http://www.theonion.com/content/news/al_gore_caught_warming_globe_to

 

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