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Discussion in 'UEFA and Europe' started by Rui Costa, Jun 29, 2005.
Are Liverpool 05 the worst team ever to lift the European cup?
Absolutley not! What a dumb way to play down this teams accomplishments....come on, give them credit....
Despite the fact that they weren't able to completely destroy their opponents, they did what other teams weren't able to, and that was to shut the other team down. Ok...they didn't score loads of goals all the time, but there was brilliant defending going on that can't go unoticed.
Sure, Milan dominated the final, except for those 6 minutes but look at what Dudek was able to do in ET and during the penalty shootout...Liverpool kept their cool and won. That was after being down 3-0.....there are many teams that wouldn't have been able to bounce back from that....they did and won.
This isn't a thread to argue whether they deserved to win againest Milan, its for you and others who are older than me to debate whether there has been a poorer team in history to lift the trophy.Do please present me with one as I'm genuinely curious.
Villa finished 11th the season they won it.
There you go mate.
Aston Villa 82 has to be the worst. The stats that the potter have given say it all.
If you are talking about the amount of star players, Liverpool 2005 aren't the worst team. Hamburg 83 has to be among one of the worst winners. Aside from Manny Kaltz, Felix Magath and Horst Hrubesch, the rest of the team aren't worth bragging about.
The squad that won in 1983:
HSV: U. Stein - Kaltz, Jakobs, Hieronymus, Wehmeyer - Groh, Rolff, Bastrup
(56 von Heesen), Magath - Milewski, Hrubesch (c)
I can't agree with that.
Hamburg were a very good side in the late-70s/early-80s. They still hold one of the most impressive Bundesliga records in being unbeaten in every game from January 1982 to January 1983.
From that line-up, all but one player (Wehmeyer) were internationals, Uli Stein was one of the best goalkeepers of the 1980s, Ditmar Jakobs played a wonderful 1986 World Cup, Holger Hieronymous was touted "the new Beckenbauer" before his career ended due to injury in 1985, and Wolfgang Rolff was a regular for West Germany from 1983 to 1988 (37 caps). Add Magath, Kaltz and Hrubesch and you got a really good team plus a superb manager in Ernst Happel.
Nobody brags about them, but they are definitely not the worst team that ever won the European Cup. That would be Aston Villa.
I didn't say that the were the worst team to have won it, I said that they were one of the worst. In West Germany during that era, Hamburg were a very good team, like you have pointed out. I forgot Jakobs. I think Happel was the main reason why Hamburg in that year won the European Cup. His record before coaching Hamburg was impressive. Another reason why Hamburg managed to win would have to be because they had played Juve in the Final. In 1980, Hamburg couldn't beat Nottingham Forest. In 1982, Hamburg lost to IFK Gothenburg in the UEFA Cup Final which included a 3-0 loss at home. A year later, Hamburg beat Juve. Why? It's because Juve fall apart in European Cup Finals. They're one of the giant clubs and they've lost five finals. Disgraceful! Hamburg deserve their win though, no doubts about that.
You say Hamburg were a very good team in West Germany during that era, but that automatically implies they were a very good team overall, too, not just in West Germany, as the Bundesliga was the top league in Europe according to UEFA 5-year-ranking from 1977 to 1984.
They lost the European Cup final in 1980 and the UEFA Cup in 1982 - but you have to reach the final first. Losing a final doesn't mean you're a bad team. Hamburg reached four European finals from 1977 to 1983 and won two of them. This is an indication that they were a good team and certainly not one of the worst to have won the European Cup. Losing to Nottingham wasn't a shame. Even though they don't have a galmorous name, Nottingham were the team to beat in Europe from 1978 to 1980 and Hamburg were the better side in the final, but were unlucky that Hrubesch was injured and could only be used as a sub. In the semi Hamburg demolished Real Madrid 5-1 with a fit Hrubesch.
The 1982 UEFA Cup final shouldn't be considered an indication of Hamburg being a weak team - that 0:3 home defeat was some sort of blackout caused mainly by severe underrating of the opponent Göteborg.
On paper Liverpool are way behind them, but personally I thought they were far more impressive than Milan were 2 years ago when they won it.
And what happened to Aston Villa of the 80s? Came from nowhere to win the league, then the European cup and then faded into oblivion - Weren't they relegated only a few years after being crowned "champions of Europe"?
So yeh, Aston Villa would have to be a candidate for the worst.
Villa had a cracking side, actually. Problem is that they didn't last as a side. The team that won the 1981 League and the 1982 European Cup was nowhere near "the worst" to win at the highest level in Europe. But that team barely lasted two seasons, they began to break apart more or less on the bus back from the Final. So basing a judgement on anything other than the team that actually competed in and won that particular year's competition is daft.
I've had a look at Juve's record in European finals:
1964-65 Fairs Cup Final 0-1 vs Ferencvaros (lost)
1970-71 Fairs Cup Final 2-2, 1-1 vs Leeds (draw)
1972-73 Champions Cup Final 0-1 vs Ajax (lost)
1976-77 UEFA Cup Final 1-0, 1-2 vs Atletic Bilbao (won)
1982-83 Champions Cup Final 0-1 vs Hamburg (lost)
1983-84 Cup Winners Final 2-1 vs Porto (won)
1984-85 Champions Cup Final 1-0 vs Liverpool (won)
1989-90 UEFA Cup Final 3-1, 0-0 vs Fiorentina (won)
1992-93 UEFA Cup Final 3-1, 3-0 vs Borussia Dortmund (won)
1994-95 UEFA Cup Final 0-1, 1-1 vs Parma (lost)
1995-96 CL Final 1-1 vs Ajax (draw)
1996-97 CL Final 1-3 vs Borussia Dortmund (lost)
1997-98 CL Final 0-1 vs Real Madrid (lost)
2002-03 CL Final 0-0 vs Milan (draw)
Overall 14 finals: 5 won, 3 drawn, 6 lost
But it is worthwhile to note that during Juve's very successful classic mid-70s to mid-80s period, they reached four finals and only lost one. So I think while Juve generally has a habit to lose a final more than to win one, this was not the case during the time they met Hamburg, when they were more likely to win a final than to lose one. Losing European finals didn't really become Juve's trademark before the mid-90s, when they lost three out of four finals.
Traore reference? It's a very innacurate thing to assume that the strength of a team is the sum of individual talent.
Not to mention that it betrays an at best brief acquaintances with the facts of our team's progress this season.
When I look at those results, there's only one conclusion I can draw. In 1965 and 1983, they underestimated their opponents. A case could be made for 1997 but on that day, Borussia were very impressive.
About an hour ago I saw some highlights of the 1983 Final. Magath scored a beauty. At the same time it was heartbreaking to watch it.
The players at Villa weren't exactly superstars or players that are considered to be greats. As a team unit they may have been great. In terms of individual stars, the likes of Rimmer, Swain, Mortimer, Evans, Bremner, Withe and co weren't players who could be classifed as among the best in Europe. Maybe in the UK but not on the continent.
If Villa 82 aren't the worst team to have won it, who is and why?
Side being the best word to describe them, the rest of the squad were average at best. They won the league using only 14 players and were hit with a few injuries the following year. They also did not figure in Europe twhen they won the league and the extra games the following year certainly did not help their league form.
Hrubesch and Kaltz both scored a double in that 5-1 win. I looked at the scores and Hamburg were already 4-1 up at half time.
With the likes of Keegan, Kaltz, Magath and Hrubesch in the Hamburg team, HSV should have won. Like you have pointed out, Nottingham were the team to beat. When you look back on it, Hrubesch's injury and Kenny Burn's tagging job on Keegan did effect Hamburg.
If Hamburg won in 1980, I would look at them differently because Hamburg were the favourites and their individuals were better than Nottingham's. When they are compared to the Juve team of 83, Juve had seven Italian internationals, six of them who played in Italy's 1982 World Cup win and French and Polish greats, Michel Platini and Zbigniew Boniek. In comparison to them, Hamburg's players weren't players who rank among Germany's greatest or in terms of individual pedigree, they weren't players who gained much recognition worldwide.
If the 1982 UEFA Cup Final isn't an indication of Hamburg being a weak team, the 1983 European Cup shouldn't be an indication of Hamburg being one of the all-time greats.
I'm not arguing that Hamburg was one of the all-time great teams, but they also weren't among the weakest. They should be ranked somewhere in the middle. I am confident Hamburg would have won in 1980 if Hrubesch had been fit. He was the right kind of player to break an English defence. I'm also confident Hamburg would have beat IFK Göteborg if they had taken them seriously - but due to their arrogance, they deserved to lose like that.
A team that was German champ in 1979, 1982 and 1983, as well as runner-up in 1980, 1981 and 1984, a team that reached four European finals in seven years surely should not be ranked among the weakest teams in European Cup winners history.
Juve had a most impressive line-up in 1983, but they failed to win, so that counts for nothing. Hamburg with Kaltz, Hrubesch, Magath, Jakobs, Stein and Rolff was a decent enough team to beat them.
Just out of curiosity Gregoriak, who would you rank as among the worst winners besides Villa?
Irrelevant. They were a very good football team.
Impossible to say - see previous response. Daft question, basically.
B) No, there have been worse (Fiorentina). OH wait, ... (never mind)
They only made one final and they lost it too. In 1957 they lost 2-0 to Real Madrid. Even if they had won, I wouldn't rate them as one of the worst.
Be more specific.