Andrew Carleton

Discussion in 'Youth National Teams' started by ielag, Jul 8, 2018.

  1. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    But Andrew Carleton wasn't actually at Georgia United for that long.

    Somebody can correct me if I'm wrong, but Carleton had moved to Georgia United for the 2015/2016 DA season. He had been at a couple of other clubs prior to that (UFA and SSA). And I think much of that time he was at Bradenton anyway. He actually played very few games total for Georgia United. Then he signed a homegrown deal in late 2016. [Maybe there's more to it than that. Other merges between some of those youth clubs.]

    And that's fine. He was at Georgia United long enough to then qualify as a homegrown player for Atlanta United. That's all that matters. All I'm implying is that when we say Atlanta United had a youth structure in place prior to their first team starting.............that's true. But Carleton wasn't really a part of it.

    We can go in circles trying to find out what the problem was. People can complain about how Atlanta United didn't have a plan. That's fair. Well, the primary goals of an MLS club are to win trophies and be productive businesses. Check and check. Atlanta United can only be described as a colossal success so far. The fact that Andrew Carleton didn't work out for them is a blip on their radar. Like a youngster not developing or working out for Tigres in Mexico. Happens all the time. They win a bunch of trophies, so it really doesn't matter to their fans. Lose...................and then there's pressure on leadership regarding young players not developing.
     
  2. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    If you end up working at Foot Locker it is because you are not good enough either on the field or between the ears. Not because you signed for any particular club when you were 16.

    If you end up being a World Class player it is because you are an World Class talent work ethic not because you signed with Dortmund when you were 16.

    No player is being ruined by a senior club unless they get injured due to negligence and that injury effects their long-term performance.

    None of their players are ruined anyway. They are ~18 years old. 3 or 4 years at Altanta United isn't the difference in any of them becoming career USL players versus career Champions League players.
     
  3. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    It matters. We could go round and round on this, but it matters. Whether Atlanta cares or not is a different question.

    It matters to Carleton, most directly, and the fans who want him to succeed.

    It matters to MLS, to Atlanta and all the other MLS teams, because other young prospects are watching (the Carleton saga) and evaluating what it means for them.

    It matters to the future of the sport in this country, because every young player should have a fair chance at a pathway to success.

    Some here would like to ascribe Carleton's failure to advance as simply a personal failure, to immaturity, a poor work ethic and/or a lack of talent, but it's clear (to many here) that it's more complex than that.
     
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  4. TimB4Last

    TimB4Last Member+

    May 5, 2006
    Dystopia
    This is 100% not true, and I'm surprised to see you say anything like this. Proper development is essential, and some clubs are much better at it than others. That's the reason the best young players with a full range of options seek out the best developmental opportunities, at teams like Dortmund.

    Life doesn't allow us to be certain about the path not taken, but if Carleton had gone to Dortmund at 16, I very much doubt he'd be heading to Indy now. And if he had failed there (at Dortmund), we'd be pretty certain the failure fell squarely on his own shoulders.
     
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  5. bpet15

    bpet15 Member

    Oct 4, 2016
    Yes, we could go round and round on this, as I believe we already have in the 89 pages of this thread. That says, luck is a huge part of the equation and while I personally don't think Carleton is talented enough to make it big in any league, I will also admit he didn't have much luck along the way. He isn't unique in this fact, but others have made their own luck. The great thing about this sport is true talent can't really be hidden. While some may want to make this a complex issue with many different factors (which isn't wrong), his talent and what he does with it is simply the only thing that will matter.

    This debate will end soon enough when/if he goes out on loan. His performances on the field will determine which side of the fence we all end up on. That is the way it should be.
     
  6. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    #2206 Kombucha, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    Carleton couldn't go to Dortmund at 18 anyway regardless, I am not saying that their are not slightly different outcomes based on the club that a players signs with at the age of 16, but that by far the biggest reason for a players sucess and failure is their god given talent level.

    If you are a USL level talent and go to Dortmund then Dortmund can't turn you into a Champions League caliber starter and if you are a World Class level talent then going to Atlanta United isn't going to relegate your career to working at Foot Locker.

    Talent shines through in the end. You either have it or you don't.

    Carleton's career is far from ruined at this point. He is 18. If he goes to Indy XI and doesn't perform then it seems silly to pretend that Atlanta United is the reason he isn't starting in the Champions League at age 19. If he goes to Indy XI and kills it then his career is far from ruined.

    Lagos Kunga is not a talented prospect. Nobody has every said otherwise. He would have been back in the US just as quick as Shaft Brewer had he went to Dortmund at 16 and would be in the USL because he is not good, not because he signed with Atlanta.
     
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  7. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    The development infrastructure of global football disagrees with you. The infrastructure of every professional sport in this country disagrees with you.

    You need talent and work ethic. But you need effective coaching and competitive opportunity at every step from a young age to retirement.
     
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  8. Kombucha

    Kombucha Member

    Jul 1, 2016
    Club:
    --other--
    Yes. You need competent coaching, development and repetition from a young age to properly hone technique and skill to develop into a world class player, but we are not talking about ages 6 - 15.

    We are talking about age 16.5-19.5 for Carleton with Atlanta.

    Nobody talent level baseline is going from USL level to World Class level or World Class level to USL level based on this 3 year period regardless of coaching and competition.

    This doesn't even touch the point that athleticism is becoming increasingly important in the modern game and that is 98% god-given.

    Anybody that thinks that god given talent isn't 95% of the equation in other sports in this country doesn't know what they are watching...seriously you have to be a genetic outlier athletically and physically to play even on the DI College Level.

    LeBron James is in the top .0001% of athletes and is in the top .0001% for height. That is 95% of the battle right there.
     
  9. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    Take any 16 yo J2 signing and put them right into MLB. They will fail spectacularly. Give them coaching and let them work through there minor leagues, you get Ronald Acuna.

    Acuna was nothing at 16 but raw ability. When Atlanta develops one HG player, we can revisit this.
     
  10. Dirt McGirt

    Dirt McGirt Member+

    Jun 20, 2005
    Phoenix, AZ
    Club:
    Seattle Sounders
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Who the ******** is Ronald Acuna and did he have an underage drinking problem?
     
  11. grandinquisitor28

    Feb 11, 2002
    Nevada
    Nobody hates him on these boards. That kind of argument has always struck me as ludicrous. I think everyone here has seen some of those gorgeous, silky, perfect passes he has delivered from time to time over the years, the flashes of otherworldly brilliance that guys EGG insists on jamming into the 23/11's over and over could not do in a dream, let alone in a real freaking match.

    NOBODY HATES HIM.

    People just found the "he's a stud, he's the #1 or #2 prospect in the system" arguments insufferable and utterly w/o evidenciary support. It was the argument that was tiresome, the "take lock", that never adjusted whatsoever regardless of evidence to the contrary.

    I don't think there's a soul around that would be bummed if he turned it all around, figured it out and turned into a star, we'd celebrate it, why on earth wouldn't we?

    And then we get to this which is just bull bleep. There are good organizations and there are bad organizations. Pretending different is 1000% idiocy. In a situation like this, two things can be equally true: Carleton can have squandered a great deal of opportunity and acted like a total ---ha, and Atlanta can be a total dumpster fire in terms of developing young teenage talent.

    I've been watching sports for nearly forty years and if there's one thing that is blatantly obvious all along, it's that organizations impact the development of prospects. To pretend that a prospects development is 1000% based upon that Prospects work ethic and professionalism is complete horse bleep. ESPN just published an epic piece on how Kyle Shanahan and the idiot Yorks' managed to do something right in SF, and basically bring in and mentor the young kids w/former greats. They've made a point of bringing back guys like Joe Montana, Steve Young, Jerry Rice, Jesse Sappolu, Ronnie Lott Etc. They have an entire set up for kids drafted, or signed on undrafted free agent contracts to learn about the history of the team, the pride of the uniform and everything in-between. After the rookie symposium is over, they do their own thing in Santa Clara to help players integrate into Niners culture. As a long suffering redskins fan born and raised in the bay, I can tell you the contrast between the Niners culture, and my inept, totally incompetent Redskins culture is significantly worse than just night and day, and it's not a coincidence that the niners have managed to complete multiple successful rebuilds, like 3 different one's, since my Redskins went into the toilet 28 years ago, and stayed there.

    If you are an elite QB prospect, who do you want to land with if you have these options: Kansas City, New England, Pittsburgh, or Washington or Cincinnati or Detroit?

    The answer seems kind of obvious.

    If you're an NBA Prospect, would you like to land in Dallas, or LA, or Golden State, or would it be a better idea to land with say, my Washington Wizards or New York Knicks?

    If you're a soccer player and talented, do you want to play in Atlanta's youth system, or do you want to land in Dallas, or say, Dortmund?

    This isn't rocket science. When it comes to development as a prospect, half of the equation is your talent, and half of the equation is your situation and how you handle it. Land in a great situation, and you can even make mistakes and still be successful, land in a bad situation, and that's far less likely.

    Carleton probably would be in the same situation no matter where he was as a 16-19 year old, but there is NO QUESTION that he would've had a significantly better chance of turning out okay if he'd landed/developed with a competent franchise with a proven track record of developing young players, compared to a franchise with no track record whatsoever.

    There's a reason why the Patriots can produce two different franchise QB's in back to back decades w/o having used a first round pick on either of them. There's a reason why the Niners have built Super Bowl contenders with Joe Montana, Steve Young, Colin Kaepernick, and Jimmy G, none of the four blue chip top draft picks (in fairness Young would've been one, but was ruined by Tampa), and there's a reason my redskins haven't drafted and developed a franchise, Hall of Fame caliber QB since Sammy Baugh 85 years ago. Some franchises are fertile ground for player development, and some franchises might as well be Carthage after the Rome finally went postal, razed the empire to the ground and salted the earth, because flat out nothing seemingly positive grows in some of these places, whether it's Snyder's Redskins Park, the Clippers under Donald Sterling, the Knicks under Idiot Dolan, you get the picture, and you can be the greatest prospect around, but not much worth a damn is likely to happen if you land in a truly terrible situation and it isn't a coincidence. Now add in that said player isn't a 21 or 22 year old NFL or NBA Prospect, but instead is a 16-19 year old, and it just magnifies rather than minimizes the problem of landing w/a bad organization (be it at the professional level, or in this case, at the development level).
     
  12. ttrevett

    ttrevett Member+

    Apr 2, 2002
    Atlanta, GA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    A simple click on the rep link wasn't nearly enough rep for this post.
     
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  13. a_new_fan

    a_new_fan BigSoccer Yellow Card

    Jul 6, 2006
    this is the fact that people miss with this kid its clear his family enabled him from the start and the club figured he'd grow up and figure it out...it didnt work.
     
  14. Tactical Hipster

    Dec 23, 2014
    Atlanta, GA
    Club:
    Atlanta
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    fwiw the club just confirmed they are working to send Carleton to Indy, it's just a matter of time before it's finalized.
     
  15. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    That would be an interesting move. They had Josh Penn, another young attacker of some promise, on an academy deal last year and didn't play him much. They've been a winning team at the USL level and have some quality. It seems to be a veteran group, or has been. If he can help them, you figure they will play him, but they get 10,000 fans a game and made the conference finals last year. If he isn't producing, he'll feel some heat, whether from the team or the fans.
     
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  16. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It will be good to get a clean slate and prove Atlanta wrong. If he can't then he justifies what Atlanta did.
     
  17. Dave Marino-Nachison

    Jun 9, 1999
    I guess. Still, it seems likely to me that both Atlanta and Carleton are more interested in getting him into a situation that gets his career back on track this year than being right about whatever happened last year.
     
  18. Pegasus

    Pegasus Member+

    Apr 20, 1999
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I probably worded that poorly but he should have plenty of motivation.
     
  19. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    What if he struggles in Indianapolis? Will the Carleton stans finally admit defeat?
     
  20. David Kerr

    David Kerr Member

    Liverpool
    United States
    Oct 18, 2019
    Carleton will probably have a long professional career but if you think he has a shot at being a usmnt prospect ever again I don't know what to tell you. Other players his age have surpassed him by miles now and have good European floors while Carleton's ceiling is MLS or a European league that is worse than MLS.
     
  21. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    That fact that you look at a player's career as some sort of contest that you are a part of says a lot about you.
     
  22. Clint Eastwood

    Clint Eastwood Member+

    Dec 23, 2003
    Somerville, MA
    Club:
    FC Dallas
    #2222 Clint Eastwood, Jan 23, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 23, 2020
    Prospects "fail" all the time. They fail in Argentina, Spain, Germany, and Brazil too. You can look at U17 World Cup winning teams and note that half of those youngsters don't "make it."

    Its a harsh reality of the sport. Often the kids that are the best against their 16-17 year old contemporaries don't develop into the best against adult professionals. We have examples of that amongst well known USYNTers from all generations.

    Our attitude SHOULD be to support and want these guys to do well in their careers. If that means a youngster doesn't really develop, and ends up being a career USL player.......................then the way to look at is that he made a living as a soccer player. A dream come true for a lot of people.

    The frustration folks have with Andrew Carleton's situation is that when he was given a chance with the ATL first team, he didn't struggle. He may not have lit the world on fire, but he didn't struggle. He played well enough to earn more chances, and those didn't come. And that happens.
     
  23. frankburgers

    frankburgers Member+

    May 31, 2016
    If he succeeds or fails at Indy 11 has no bearing on my life. It’s sports. I enjoy watching, and laughing at all the bad takes itt. And the inability to properly call out a players poor mentality.
    Sorry
     
  24. Patrick167

    Patrick167 Member+

    Dortmund
    United States
    May 4, 2017
    You just described 2/3rds of Gregg's rosters.
     
  25. don Lamb

    don Lamb Member+

    mine
    United States
    Aug 31, 2017
    I think most people watch sports for the sport itself and to follow the players playing it. Apparently, you watch in part because you have made Big Soccer into your own personal Bingo board.

    That's cool and all, but we really know very little about a player's mentality. Some of the best players of all time have been the biggest party animals, so that doesn't really seem like a good barometer.
     

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