America vs. Europe, and we're losing

Discussion in 'Politics & Current Events' started by superdave, Nov 15, 2004.

  1. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Totally wrong. "Number of uninsured" has been the basic standard since at least the '92 campaign.

    Commie.
     
  2. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    And that's related to a BUNCH of gvt. decisions.

    And maybe a few personal ones, too. ;) No, seriously, the gvt. could do alot of things to create healthier lifestyles.
     
  3. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    Agreed. The government can do a good bit but when schools contract with Taco Bell to provide school lunches because kids wouldn't eat the healthier food the school cafeteria was previously providing (an actual local situation), we have a problem. You can't force people to eat what they don't want to eat.
     
  4. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    I won't quarrel with this point. That is not the important number.

    To me the critical number is how many people don't have insurance because they truly can't afford it. If that number truly is in the 5 million range, then it shouldn't be all that hard to provide insurance. In fact, either the Bush or Kerry plans would have been more than adequate.
     
  5. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States

    WTF; Dude, I worked 36-hour shifts, busting my ass to pay for a mortgage in Bergen county that I couldn't afford, expending a savings effort that took a lifetime to accumulate, to have timely access to a commute into a city which I could not stand, to be in a position where if I got sick, "at-will" contracting meant my family didn't have sh!t, preventative, non-emergency care-wise.

    Either a system reflects a society starting out with the premise that all of its citizens have value/society value presupposes that assumption, or it does not/is not that society.

    In many ways, the struggle in America has been along these two strands; one says that you have worth when you demonstrate worth to the society as it configures itself around those who "demonstrate" worth; the other says you have inherent worth as a member of society. These two strands have been in conflict with each other for a long time.

    With the ascendency of the legal, artificial corporate person, the value of demonstrating worth - in the main, now, to those corporations - has also ascended.

    While the notion of human beings, of American citizens, having inherent worth by definition is losing, maybe has lost, the battle for minds, and for hearts.

    Enjoy.
     
  6. argentine soccer fan

    Staff Member

    Jan 18, 2001
    San Francisco Bay Area
    Club:
    CA Boca Juniors
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Easy. Just look at England. The Royals get the tax breaks, and so they invest in the economy and in jobs and that is why England is such a jolly land.
     
  7. dj43

    dj43 New Member

    Aug 9, 2002
    Nor Cal
    You didn't have to live in one of the most expensive places in the country, work in a monster city, etc. Life would have been much better, with more affordable everything, in many other places.

    I'm on your side when it comes to providing care. But it is another thing entirely to say that everyone should live in an expensive area and have all the other perks as well.

    There are tons of very reasonable, very affordable places to live. No offense but don't complain that you can't afford to live in a city you hated.
     
  8. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I didn't - and don't - hate NYC; I hated the commute. I went to where the work was; sorry that you think that that means I have less right to pretty much everything else because I go to where the work is.

    How...sad.

    Best thing is that I've made myself perfectly impervious to that type of thinking as expressed in the States, among governments state and federal.
     
  9. 96Squig

    96Squig Member

    Feb 4, 2004
    Hanover
    Club:
    Hannover 96
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    Could we please focus back on Europe?

    Here are some numbers I serached for another Thread:
    So from numbers US military would be a bit smaller than EU's, but more modern. That should equal the size.
    A United European military would not make us stronger militarywise. Nevertheless, it would make the idea of Europe stronger. What good is a country without troops? It helps forming Europe from an alliance to a nation, and strengthen the European Identity in the population.
    untill the 90s when we spoke about the EU we spoke about economy. Now we start speaking about money, military, being as big as the US,...

    The EU as it is now can only exist with a strong America. But then again, how was the Us founded? with a weak america? C'mon...
     
  10. superdave

    superdave Member+

    Jul 14, 1999
    VB, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The Euro is at a new high, and Europe is calling for the US to take steps to bolster the dollar.

    Which would mean doing something about our trade and budget deficits.

    Hah!! Don't they know that the Bushies are positive actors, not members of the reality based community!
     
  11. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    They're actually thinking right now that if they invade and conquer Europe, we could study that forged reality while they dangle Euros newly minted in sh!t over an imprisoned Chirac's nose for years...
     
  12. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Ireland is the best place to live in the world, according to a "quality of life" assessment by Economist magazine

     
  13. Nico Limmat

    Nico Limmat Member+

    Oct 24, 1999
    Dubai, UAE
    Club:
    Grasshopper Club Zürich
    Nat'l Team:
    Switzerland
    Whoa...Ireland? That is a bit of a surprise...

    At least we're still second. :D
     
  14. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
  15. sardus_pater

    sardus_pater Member

    Mar 21, 2004
    Sardinia Italy EU
    Club:
    Cagliari Calcio
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    quoting from the article I posted

    Researchers took into account not just income, but other factors considered important to people's satisfaction and well-being.

    They included health, freedom, unemployment, family life, climate, political stability and security, gender equality and family and community life.


    So it's not that the Economist considered only economic factors, right the contrary I'd say.

    Surely it's not bible for me (and being agnostic it's not that the bible etc. etc.) it was just an interesting article.
     
  16. johan neeskens

    Jan 14, 2004
    Fair enough. It's just that I'd rather put my trust in the UN than in a commercial magazine when it comes to rating quality of life that's all.
     
  17. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Britons reject Blair's closeness to the US
    By Andrew Grice, Political Editor
    17 November 2004


    Tony Blair's "shoulder to shoulder" support for America is rejected today by a majority of British people, who believe it is more important to have good relations with European countries.

    A poll by NOP for The Independent found that 64 per cent of people think that having good relations with Britain's European Union partners is more important than with the United States, while only 25 per cent believe the relationship with the US should take priority.

    The findings are a setback to Mr Blair and may embarrass him on the eve of tomorrow's visit to Britain by Jacques Chirac, the French President, who wants Europe to become an alternative centre of power to America. Although Mr Blair is determined to act as a "bridge" between the US and EU, he vowed during a visit to Washington last week that Britain's strong bond with America would continue for as long as he remained Prime Minister.

    Despite public scepticism about the EU, people would rather Britain keep closer to Europe than America. The poll's results will be seen as evidence of hostility to President George Bush in Britain and opposition to Mr Blair's decision to back him over Iraq rather than pursue a "European solution".

    There is better news for the Prime Minister on other fronts. According to NOP, Labour (on 39 per cent) has opened a commanding nine-point lead over the Tories (30 per cent), with the Liberal Democrats on 20 per cent, enough to give Mr Blair a majority of more than 150. Labour is up three points since month's last NOP/Independent survey, the Tories down four points and the Liberal Democrats down one...
     
  18. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Unless real change takes place, fundamental change, this may be true...


    The American dream is fading - and the future belongs to Europe

    The United States has passed the high point of its success and is doomed to
    decline due to its internal weaknesses


    Mary Dejevsky

    03 November 2004, p. 35


    As yet, they are just straws in the wind, fragile harbingers of change as
    liable to be blown away as to settle. But if a growing minority of observers
    are right, more and more such straws will soon be wafting across the
    Atlantic and the incoming President will need to do more than brush them
    dismissively off his lapel.

    For half a century now, each US president has faced a more or less
    predictable slate of foreign policy conundrums competing for his attention.
    In no particular order, they have included the Middle East, Russia and its
    satellites, China and its neighbours, the Indian subcontinent - and
    whichever regional war the US is currently fighting. Europe - fractious,
    self-absorbed and arrogant - has hardly registered on the White House radar.

    What has Washington's recent Europe policy really amounted to? Reluctant and
    thankfully brief interventions in corners of former Yugoslavia, laced with
    complaints about Europe's own failure to act. A touch of French-bashing
    here, some gentle courting of so-called "new Europeans" there, scornful
    forecasts about the credibility of the euro - and all topped off with
    flights of grand rhetoric and lavish anniversary receptions to lubricate an
    ever less substantial North Atlantic alliance.

    Sometime soon, though, the US will have to wake up and formulate a Europe
    policy. Its old assumption that America represents the future of Europe and
    a model - desired or inevitable - for its development needs to be
    drastically revised. It could even be that the old and new continents are
    set to change places.

    In the past half year, three supremely qualified analysts have quite
    independently reached similar conclusions. They deserve to be taken
    seriously: firstly, because their arguments run against a well-established
    consensus; secondly, because all have lived and worked as well as studied on
    both sides of the Atlantic, including Britain and continental Europe; and
    thirdly, because in their own fields they are all empirical analysts with
    impressive records.

    Emmanuel Todd, whose After the Empire sees the eventual decline of the
    United States implicit in its social divisions, was among the first to
    predict the demise of the Soviet Union from the facts of demography and the
    economy on the ground. Anatol Lieven, whose America Right or Wrong
    identifies an American nationalism that he sees in the context of the
    European nationalisms of the past, has unmatched experience of other
    cultures. Lastly, Jeremy Rifkin, whose The European Dream compares the
    economic and cultural boasts of the United States against the statistical
    and European reality, is that rare phenomenon: a management guru on the left
    of US politics, who eschews jargon, questions assumptions and feels as
    comfortable in Europe as in the US.

    There is also a fourth reason - I admit it - for giving credence to these
    studies, which is that I happen to agree. My own conclusions from living and
    working in Britain, continental Europe and the US concur in almost every
    detail with theirs.

    Todd's thesis is that the United States has already passed the high point of
    its success and is doomed to decline because of its internal weaknesses.
    These include its half- hearted attitude to empire, the contradiction
    implicit in its claim for the universality of its model with the de facto
    racial and social segregation it practises at home, and the narrowing of its
    cultural horizons. Falling American life-expectancy, disparities in health
    and the rise in poverty also come into his equation.

    Lieven argues that what Americans regard as the unique, and generally
    superior, "American way" is but a form of nationalism, identical in many
    ways - good and bad - to the nationalisms of pre-war European states or the
    former Soviet Union. The Republican Party, he suggests, would anywhere else
    in the world be called the Nationalist Party. He dares to see a malign
    aspect to the flag-waving and monolithic patriotism of the media that
    followed the 11 September attacks.

    The landmark aspect of this book, however, is neither the wealth of detail
    he draws on nor the political incorrectness of much of what he says,
    according to today's American canon. It is rather that he views the United
    States as just another country, subject to the same weaknesses and
    influences and capable of fitting the same analytical categories as
    "abroad". Lieven takes the United States down to size. No wonder he had
    difficulty finding an American publisher.

    Rifkin's title, The European Dream, shows that his premise, too, includes a
    healthy rejection of American "exceptionalism". As the most wide-ranging
    analysis of how Europe works, however, this is the study that should worry
    the White House most. For while many flaws in the US system are
    well-rehearsed, few economists acknowledge the achievements of the EU and
    few politicians believe that Europe could ever be coherent enough in its
    ambitions to challenge the power or popular appeal of the United States.
    Rifkin hazards that the European Union could supply an alternative model of
    development.

    Whether the new EU constitution comes to anything or not, he contends that
    Europe is already far more of a success than its constituent countries
    recognise, and potentially the next superpower in the making. The common
    currency is now stronger than the dollar. France, Germany and others may
    have flouted the borrowing conditions, but not by much - look at the debts
    the United States has run up. Growth in much of Europe may be sluggish, but
    at least it is not swollen by credit and wishful accounting. Anyway, he
    argues, most of the accepted economic indicators favour US definitions of
    success. The world of the future, he implies, may contemplate the two models
    and prefer European measures of contentment.

    Rifkin's argument is so compelling because it uses simple facts and figures
    to challenge existing US claims of supremacy. He is also a man with a
    mission - not only to convince Americans that they must notice renascent
    Europe, but to convince Europeans that they share important values and that
    their project is something to be proud of. For, deep down, he fears that
    Europe and its destiny are in danger of passing each other by.

    Even as the US model becomes unsustainable, he worries, those Europeans
    hitherto most resistant to the American model are finally capitulating.
    Thus, despite their superior productivity indicators, shorter working hours,
    superior health systems, more benevolent social safety nets, more merciful
    judicial systems and more successful diplomacy, even the French and Germans
    are being bamboozled into following Britain in adopting more American
    free-market ways.

    Don't do it, he is telling us. You are on the right track. Europe has a
    valid model of its own which is more suited to the world of the future
    than
    the fading American dream. And we should not do it: those straws in the wind
    for the incoming American president are omens that we Europeans should heed,
    too.



    http://comment.independent.co.uk/columnists_a_l/mary_dejevsky/story.jsp?story=578838
     
  19. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The "other side":

    By JAMES K. GLASSMAN (a fellow at the American Enterprise Institute and host of www.TechCentralStation.com) for the WSJ

    November 5, 2004

    During his first term, Europe saw George W. Bush as a fluke. He had
    won in 2000 without a majority, gaining the White House chicanery or
    outrageous luck, and he had been a disaster as president. Surely, given the
    choice of the urbane John Kerry, Americans would not re-elect this hick.

    But, of course, they did. Tuesday, Mr. Bush won a second term by four
    million votes on Tuesday, becoming the first president since Franklin
    Roosevelt in 1936 to gain re-election while picking up seats in both houses
    of Congress. In the Senate, the Democratic leader was defeated and
    Republicans widened their lead to 10 seats from two.

    Mr. Bush won despite 1,000 American deaths in Iraq, an economy that is
    generating new jobs at a tepid pace, a faltering performance in the
    presidential debates and the nearly unanimous opposition of the media. It
    was a triumph, and Europeans needs to recognize that its effects will
    probably endure. The Republican party of Ronald Reagan, which followed a
    half-century of Democratic dominance in American politics, is consolidating
    its power.

    The best advice I can give Europeans is: Live with it! President Bush
    is no fluke, and there's no wishing him away. The good news is that Mr. Bush
    isn't devious or unpredictable. He's entirely open and obvious. A major
    theme of his campaign was that he does what he says...

    ...The American economy is growing roughly twice as fast as Europe's.
    President Bush's re-election will put more pressure on EU leaders to
    consider adopt more business-friendly policies; it is evident that Bush's
    embrace of free, competitive markets, low taxes and light regulatory touch
    underpin the U.S.'s widening comparative advantage in the biotech and
    pharmaceutical sectors. In fact, the greatest challenge Mr. Bush poses to
    the security of European leaders is not in foreign policy but in economics.

    The president's top goals in the second term are to overhaul the U.S.
    tax and Social Security systems. If he succeeds, the gap between America's
    growth rate and Europe's will widen, and political pressure in Europe for
    free-market reforms will grow.

    Jeremy Rifkin, an American polemicist of the left, has just written a
    book that extols the "European Dream" -- the good life of long vacations and
    "sustainable development." But this is precisely wrong. Europe is living in
    a fool's paradise, with huge demographic imbalances, untenable health care
    systems, rising crime, and high unemployment. Economic growth of 1% or 2% a
    year can't support the welfare state politicians have promised, and Europe
    can't possibly afford the economic costs that an adventure like Kyoto
    entails and they will have to address the heavy cost-burden of "health care
    for all."


    My own guess is that, over the next few years, the complacent EU
    nations (such as Germany and France) will be pushed hard by the aspiring EU
    nations (such as Ireland and Poland) to build a Europe that looks more like
    George Bush's America. And it won't be a fluke.
     
  20. Mel Brennan

    Mel Brennan PLANITARCHIS' BANE

    Paris Saint Germain
    United States
    Apr 8, 2002
    Baltimore
    Club:
    Paris Saint Germain FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    More Rifkin:

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/comment/story/0,3604,1352197,00.html

    ...After a thousand years of conflict and war, the nations of Europe emerged from the shadows of two world wars decimated: their populations maimed and killed, their ancient monuments and infrastructure lying in ruins and their way of life destroyed. Determined that they would never again take up arms against one another, the nations of Europe searched for a political mechanism that could bring them together.

    In 1948, at the Congress of Europe, Winston Churchill pondered the future of a continent racked by centuries of war and offered his own vision of a European Dream. "We hope to see a Europe where men of every country will think of being a European as of belonging to their native land, and ... wherever they go in this wide domain ... will truly feel, 'Here I am at home'," he said.

    Today, less than a half century after its founders began to dream of a united Europe, 60% of EU citizens say they feel very or fairly attached to Europe, while a third of Europeans between the ages of 21 and 35 say they "regard themselves as more European than as nationals of their home country". The World Economic Forum's survey of European leaders found that 92% see their "future identification as mainly or partly European, not national". This extraordinary change in how people perceive themselves has occurred in less than half a century...

    ...The EU constitution, which was formally signed last month in Rome and will be taken up for review and ratification by the member states over the next two years, is the first governing document in all of history to attempt to create a global consciousness. The constitution emphasises a clear commitment to "sustainable development ... based on balanced economic growth", a "social market economy", and "protection and improvement of the quality of the environment". The constitution would also "pro mote peace ... combat social exclusion ... promote social justice and protection, equality between men and women, solidarity between generations, and protection of children's rights".
     

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