Why...does this matter? Are we going XI of best international players? I didn't see the criteria. If that's the criteria, why are we talking about Alfredo Di Stefano? Should we ignore VVD for Netherlands XI as well then, just because he's not played a great tournament yet? Remove Falcao for Zito?
To be honest, I think that requires a bit of a complex analysis (game by game) and I still don't think they were accurate/objective at this level. I'd apply a more practical, less precise, but more or less recognizable formula: compare individualities. I match the 5 teams trying that each player of each compares himself with the most similar in role with the others according to the different systems and I'd choose 3 out of 5 for each line: This would give a result like this for me: 1. Brazil: 8 2. Germany: 7 2. Italy: 7 4. France: 6 5. England: 5 Maybe this can give me a suggestion.
I actually think if I try to combine the Brazilian and French line-ups I chose into one team, I'd have one more French player than Brazilian (but if I altered the system for variation, then I guess that'd change with Garrincha in for Tigana probably, or even Zico in making a 4-1-2-1-2 - not so much a diamond as a 4-3-3 with Zico behind the other two 'forwards'): Gilmar; Cafu, Blanc, Desailly, N.Santos; Tigana, Vieira; Platini, Zidane; Ronaldo, Pele I'd still pick Brazil as most likely winning team nevertheless (but I think it wouldn't be clear cut, with them as obvious favourites or something like that). By the way, instead of a straight swap between Netzer and Walter, maybe I make the suggested variation for my German line-up Hassler in for Brehme (with the midfield then being Hassler-Matthaus-Netzer, and Breitner at left back).
Probably Brazil, but I mean it's an uncertain choice obviously. If I do a combing of their line-ups maybe I end up with this by the way (although I'm maybe still tempted by Carlos Alberto in central defence, and Domingos Da Guia that Peru FC included would be another contender albeit not one we can view much footage of) Fillol; Cafu, Aldair, Passarella, N.Santos; Ardiles, Redondo; Messi, Maradona; Di Stefano, Pele So somehow I've put 7 Argentines in, but yes I'd still pick Brazil in a head to head I think. Ardiles and Redondo probably aren't the best two midfielders from both nations, but for a combination to play deep in midfield I went with that. Arguable though for sure. Di Stefano or Pele would be dropping deep in midfield, but I can understand you'd feel the balance is questionable in that combined line-up again lol (it's hard to fit so many attacking options in and keep some balance though I guess).
I think regardless of who you put in central midfield (Redondo, Ardiles, Falcao, Didi, etc), a proper defensive midfielder is needed in there. Doesn't matter if it's Mauro Silva or Luis Monti, I think such a team would require one just to have balance.
Nooo...lol! How is an English guy meant to get rid of the stereotypes on page 1 with suggestions like that (only joking, not mad by the way I should clarify)! I can understand it would be a common choice admittedly. The most likely compromise would see me put in a Zito (who was in my Brazilian line-up anyway) and he would count as somewhat of a pure DM I think actually though, although he could certainly contribute with the ball in the final 3rd quite well on occasions too. Him for Ardiles would increase my Brazilian contingent, as would Ronaldo for Di Stefano (which I kind of consider for balance could be better) or Garrincha for Messi/Di Stefano (with the other one up front with Pele, but retaining the idea of backwards movement into midfield by one or both front players). At a stretch maybe Di Stefano could be asked to play a different role as a solid midfield player who distributes the ball but doesn't advance much himself, but that'd be a theoretical idea (and it probably wouldn't or shouldn't mean Didi can come in alongside him since those were apparently famously a bad match even when Di Stefano was nominally positioned higher up!).
Having said that, the question would be would I change my mind/principles once I saw a specific opposition (or suspected I knew pretty much what their line-up would be), of all-time standards themselves, with likely an all-time number 10 'in the hole'! When we did that All-Time World Cup game, I ended up using Trappatoni in a marking role as outright DM for 'Italy Reserves' (albeit that is by definition a lower ranked team among the others, so 'underdogs' vs most or all opponents probably). I didn't instead make a midfield trio of Lodetti, Giannini and Verratti for example, without an outright DM (on that note though, Italy did just win the Euros without one arguably, albeit with all 3 midfielders contributing something defensively, as well as creatively when in possession...and they didn't actually use any number 10, possibly because they don't possess the ones they used to though I guess!). I think I will amend that suggested line-up to put in Zito for Ardiles though, of my own accord. It's taking things way off track possibly but I'd maybe still go without a pure DM in a Brazil/Argentina reserve XI though lol (from players not in the first combined XI, considering all other options from Brazil and Argentina). For that maybe I should be tempted to pair Batistuta with Ronaldo, rather than having Kempes in there (though again it depends which kind of balance gets preference just as a choice between Di Stefano and Ronaldo might for the main combined team - Di Stefano would add more midfield balance but maybe Ronaldo adds better balance in terms of attacking set-up? - likewise Kempes could drop deeper but Batistuta might sync better with Ronaldo and allow Ronaldo to roam more himself?) When Ronaldo & Batistuta Became The Best Strike Partnership In History .. For 60 Mins Only! - YouTube That said, Romario and Ronaldo themselves combined very well around that time, and actually in the end I'd probably think I can't leave Zico out and put him as number 10 and Ronaldo as striker: Perhaps I'd think of this Gilmar; Carlos Alberto, Domingos Da Guia, Thiago Silva, Roberto Carlos; Falcao, Ardiles; Garrincha, Zico, Ronaldinho; Ronaldo So only one Argentinian in that one! But on this thread we're only comparing the main XI rather than depth and back-up attacking options I think, so I think that cuts Brazil's advantage vs other teams compared to considering full squads. For a reserve Brazil/France XI I might have this: Bats; Carlos Alberto, Aldair, Tresor, Lizarazu; Zito, Didi; Garrincha, Zico, Ronaldinho; Henry (so also not many French players getting in that one).
Tbf, I'm actually very conservative. In that World Cup draft, I consistently prefer pairing Mascherano with Monti over Ardiles, IIRC. I'm such a fan of ADS, that I will always favor him playing, even if it's as a midfielder. I think these things will come down to fit, surely. Like, if you play Garrincha, Romario just becomes the most natural choice of any. He's the best box player among all the available options. Garrincha would get 3 assists a game! However, if you have players like Pele and Messi, which I feel you kind of have to, then ADS value as a forward who drops deep and feed these players just give him the edge over others, I think. The other option is of course the Ronaldo x Maradona, which just seems like the most natural fit as well. I guess the question sort of becomes, how can all of Maradona, Messi, and Pele fit together, as they are surely three 'must-haves.' The players that can make that trio work will get the job, I suppose
Yeah, I can see that. Maybe there is some argument about whether players that help set the tempo, and even break the lines a bit with some dribbles and passing moves between themselves, from deep in midfield could be all in all more useful (as long as they don't just stand around in the middle of the pitch and refuse to track back lol!) in that respect than enforcers who are there to win the ball and then just feed one of the stars as quickly and simply as possible. I did think Mauro Silva performed a good and important role for Brazil in 1994 though, as far as I remember. But that was a team set up to win games by keeping clean sheets, as opposed to a Brazil 1958 that was set up to win games by keeping the goals conceded down to 2 or 3 at most maybe lol (in other words by scoring as many as possible at the other end)! To some extent those differences were era dependent I guess, but not completely - there was definitely a different philosophy and actually Brazil 1958 had a much easier time winning vs Sweden for example! I think cohesion (in possession, but yes also in terms of the functional balance) is important, but there are multiple different kinds of ways to achieve it. I do know about Brazil 1982 not winning of course lol, but then again they didn't win in 1990 either having shifted already to a more conservative gameplan to a large extent. Sometimes the more open style wins, sometimes the more cautious plan prevails. Sometimes a team scores their way to success, sometimes (even for tiki taka Spain) it's more down to keeping goals against low.
A guy who can defend, drop deep to help buildup plays, playmake in the final third, and make runs into the box? Does such a guy exist? Preferably an Argentine? I don't know, maybe we should ask Spain In all seriousness, a front 3 of Pele, Messi, and Maradona is just 'automatic' because that's essentially three of best of all time. The most natural way to fit them, I suppose, is for Messi to play as a False Nine, Pele on the left as a roaming forward, and Maradona on the right as the primary playmaker, assuming we play a modern system, of course. In midfield, ADS can easily play as sort of an attacking midfielder who can join them and we'd still be left with two midfield spots for "balance" picks like you discussed.
Yeah, perhaps that seems the most feasible way in theory that it would work - Di Stefano involved more in setting the tempo (while being able to help in terms of regaining possession and closing down a bit too), while the others come into the game as the ball approaches the opposition goal.
Well, they are my combined top ranked teams I guess! Combined next(?) ranked Argentalia! G.Buffon; Zanetti, Nesta, F.Baresi, P.Maldini; Tardelli, Redondo; Messi, Maradona; Di Stefano, Kempes And then(?) Deutscherlands! Maier(?); Krol, Rijkaard, Beckenbauer, Breitner; Matthaus, Neeskens, Cruyff; Rummenigge, Bergkamp; Van Basten And Espangland finally! Banks; Salgado, Hierro, Moore, Gordillo; Edwards; Matthews, B.Charlton, Finney; Lineker, Raul
Feels like Spain would more naturally fit with Portugal for an Iberian side. England can of course combine for a British Isles team. Argentina-Italy is of course a good shout given the real life connections. I think it would be criminal to not include Monti in that team considering he played in WC Finals for both! It's of course a perfect fit because Argentina has all the attack in the world and no defense, while Italy has the best defense and not enough attack. Combine them and you get the best of both worlds.
I think Italy has quite a bit of fantasista availability, but yeah the Argentinian attackers would generally take the places I think (Kempes could be questionable maybe). In theory I'd more likely agree to Orsi, having played for both, as he never broke anyone's legs as far as I know...and apparently Monti made a habit of it (which seems funny now, but probably wasn't at the time)! So maybe it's him that was criminal rather than his omission (I'm not really sure of the circumstances and how reckless or deliberate the challenges were). To be fair, it seems like his ball playing was said to be pretty good, so he'd be in the mold of a Souness or latter day Keane as a 'hard man' that could pass the ball and play a bit maybe. SInce we had 5 teams in the title I could make Hungerland instead lol (or Magyarland would it be?): Banks; Buzanszky, Matrai, Moore, Biro; Edwards; Matthews, B.Charlton, Finney; Lineker, Puskas Leaving Espanugal as this I suppose: Zamora; Joao Domingos Pinto, Hierro, Carvalho, Gordillo; Busquets; Xavi, Iniesta; Figo, Eusebio, C.Ronaldo
I'd accept Monti in for Tardelli for Argentalia, only on the basis of being allowed Robert Pires in for Cristiano Ronaldo for the Iberian team lol (considering he's French, but has a Portuguese dad and Spanish mum so he has maybe at least as much claim as Monti/Orsi/Sivori etc for Argentalia on basis of countries of origin, and as much claim to a certain place for Espanugal as Josef Bican would for Austro-Czechia....except Bican did play for Austria and Czechoslovakia)!
I've certain qualms about how a midfield could work with Vieira and Tigana at the same time. I feel like both of them would need a more defensive partner. On the other hand, I feel Falcão above both. Also in that proposal, I think Zico could beat Zidane or Platini, although I know that it's an issue that can lead to controversy. Apparently, Carlos Alberto had a solid period as central defender with Fluminense, but I'm not sure if the evidence is enough to position him so high in the role. As a complementary centre-back for Domingos, I'd choose Thiago Silva or "Martha Rocha" Mauro Ramos. I can't fail to mention that I'm a bit surprised by Aldair as an option. I think Perfumo could beat him for Argentina, although also one of which there is no audiovisual evidence, but it seems to me that reached a very high status in an Argentine golden period: José Salomón. On the other hand, I'd also doubt a bit the solidity of a pair like Ardiles-Redondo, especially on such an offensive proposition in general. Wouldn't you consider Luis Monti? I mean, I know he's also another player for whom there is no audiovisual evidence, but according to the sources he seems to be a superior for his own generation and more solid to complement either of them giving more freedom to his playmaking skills. How about this hybrid?: Fillol - C. Alberto, Perfumo, Passarella, N. Santos Monti, Falcão - Messi, Pelé, Maradona - Ronaldo Argentina could really beat them in a XI, but Brazil will probably surpass them in a larger squad, in my opinion.
My attempts: Argentalia: Buffon - Zanetti, Baresi, Maldini, Facchetti Monti, Redondo - Messi, Di Stéfano, Maradona - Batistuta Deutscherlands: Neuer - Vogts, Kohler, Beckenbauer, Krol Neeskens, Matthäus, Breitner - Gullit, van Basten, Cruyff Espangland: Zamora - Ramos, B. Wright, Moore, A. Cole Pirri - Xavi, L. Suárez - Charlton - Raúl, Greaves
Classic Peru FC aka the fancy boldfacer rolling straight out of the Tropico video game. This the one who said in the past Holland (players) had more (individual) success than their actual individual quality merits. 'Team edge' as Dearman would call it. What in previous decades was often applied to Germany, or Italy too (team trumping individuals), is now flipped on its head and stamped on 'Holland'. With these yellow calls it is now even more clear he has fallen prey to decades of keenly planted Cambridge Analytica propaganda in ali baba land and the banana republics. Kohler above Rijkaard, lol. That one really shows the camps and snowballing at work. Hint: in particular Pirlo and Schnellinger are massively overrated. Pirlo disappeared in basically any final he played. All those finals he played can be called sub-par. Neuer has now made three big howlers in three successive major tournaments (that this gets ignored shows the strength of the megaphones). The likes of Navas, Courtois or Oblak are clearly hard done by. Garrincha over Matthews and Zico over Platini are of course also returning evergreens. No way Zico was a better player in games that actually counted, nor was it the case in the direct head to head encounters.
Hungerland: Banks - Armfield, B. Wright, Moore, A. Cole Bozsik, Edwards, Gerrard - Charlton - Kocsis, Puskás Espanugal: Zamora - Ramos, Puyol, Hierro, Camacho Pirri - Xavi, L. Suárez - Figo, Eusébio, C. Ronaldo
Hi mate!, I had forgotten your victimizing spirit. Actually, it's easier to explain. This is not an international boicot or a psychosocial ruse, relax! just... I forgot Rijkaard! I'd definitely include him in defense or midfield. I'd say it's pretty vague to distinguish something like "games that actually counted". Finally, everything counts, only in different measures. It's also that there is usually a kind of inappropiate mixture between individual level and results.
We all have our own impressions and preferences Peru I guess, so maybe no need for me to comment (I don't want any arguments between us for sure) but I would say that neither of us saw Monti play of course! Although I understand that it can be considered that the historical description can be enough, and sometimes people (maybe including you) might not consider it necessary to be better in real terms than modern players, but only more significant in their own era. I already talked a bit about my preference for midfielders who are good on the ball, over pure destroyers in the the thread of course. I think Falcao is less good defensively than either Tigana or Vieira probably to be honest overall, but I guess you don't suggest otherwise, but only that overall he brings more.
Nice work carrying on the concept with your options Peru! (Thanks to msioux for the idea I guess!). Interesting I actually pick the more modern option in terms of the Spanish midfield in this case, but I can see that it's quite feasible to think at least that Pirri was a better player than Busquets all in all (hard to be sure maybe, but seems like he could have been), and maybe Suarez from an individual perspective at his best was a bit more impactful in the final 3rd than Iniesta in terms of end product. Maybe it's not important, but actually (although I had a different midfield set-up of 4-1-3-2 or alternatively brought in playmaker Hoddle as a 3rd midfielder) for your England team I'd suggest Gerrard might be better placed to the right and Robson to the left (I'm not 100% sure every English person would agree but it's my impression that's better than vice versa somehow I think....just like I'd tend to say Hoddle to the right and Charlton to the left seems a better fit than vice versa, not that they'd be restricted to operating from one side).
Maybe I should add one comment on Aldair though (like I say I can understand central defence, even just for the Brazil XI alone, could be one with many different options, not because it is a strong position of their's in comparison to other top nations, but because various players might get the nod for a place from the different options they had through the years in that position). Firstly, although I know Youtube videos cannot solely be used for judgements (to be fair I did watch every game Aldair played in WC94 at the time for example though), it could be good to add a good one like this that shows quite well his range of abilities as a player/defender: Aldair, Pluto [Skills & Goals] - YouTube I can't remember if this is actually the official All-Time Roma XI (which should still be found on Wikipedia I guess), but I know Aldair was in that anyway: Roma All-Time Best XI | Goal.com Also ALTERNATIVES TO THE BALLON D'OR DREAM TEAM | BigSoccer Forum Although to be fair poetgooner's recollections of what he thought of Aldair in WC94 possibly don't match mine lol, in terms of what he said on that thread. This is a random find from vegan10's Serie A ratings thread, from midway through one of the season's, but Aldair was getting a few inclusions as both stopper and libero (depending on role or interpretation of role I suppose) around that time in the standings re: average ratings and also in the following season's previews etc from what I remember of what Vegan posted. Serie A was the best league in the world of course, but he also emerged very well in Brazil and did well at Benfica as they got to a European Cup Final (I've seen him playing well for them IMO on Footballia too): Carlos Alberto also played as libero for Cosmos, although of course it's not an ideal league to base judgements on: Remembering Carlos Alberto | 1944-2016 - YouTube I think he had the qualities in terms of composure, reading of the game, ball skills, passing etc anyway, to tempt me into suggesting him in that role (if I go with Cafu as the chosen right back from the various great Brazilian options for that position). There is a great little bit of composed play by him in defence (although he was playing as a right back) in this video I remember City Arena Trnava - Fansite - Jozef #ADAMEC hattrick #Czechoslovakia 3:2 #Brazil (1968) | Facebook I think he followed in the footsteps of Djalma Santos (who I even wonder about as a central defence option too, and the author of the All-Time World Cup book I own did consider him as such potentially IIRC...but I don't know how much he actually played as CB) in terms of that composure on the ball in defence, with I'd say added technical prowess on the ball going forwards and especially with passing from deep like with the ball to Jairzinho before the famous Pele/Banks moment in 1970 - he could play great balls from a central defence position too of course in theory). I'll leave it at that now, but anyway no problem to have some disagreements and I don't think it's necessary to try to come to any concensus but instead we should stick with our own choices unless we do actually change our own minds.