All Time overrated Player´s

Your point makes no sense at all. We aren’t debating who you or I think was the best player in those World Cups, so it is not at all relevant what you or I might value in a retrospective assessment of players in a World Cup or who we might personally think was the best player. We are explaining why people got an award. That’s not about our personal assessments. We aren’t/weren’t voters. Nor is it about what ratings that didn’t exist at the time say. It’s about what people at the time generally thought. And I’m just telling you that when the general consensus at the time was that there was a clear standout player on the World Cup winner, that player got the Ballon D’or. You or I could sit here and make all kinds of arguments about why the consensus at the time was wrong and really someone else was better in some World Cup or that someone that wasn’t considered a clear standout at the time should’ve been. One might even use SofaScore ratings for such an argument. But that’s just not relevant to the discussion of explaining how the awards voting worked. I don’t have to agree with the consensus to be able to tell you what that consensus was, so my own criteria for assessing players has zero relevance whatsoever.

It’s honestly just baffling to me that anyone would even think for a moment about saying that Messi winning the Ballon D’or this year would go against past precedent. Just really wild stuff, to be honest.

 

@Loco me and SayWhatIWant are waiting for 2 answers from you. We don't want you saying more than yes or not. You said you have to win a world cup to be on the goat tier. So based on that:

1-Were Messi an "almost GOAT" before 2022?
Yes or no?

2-Is Varane greater than Maldini?
Yes or no?

Again, Don't divert from the question by using verbose and sophistry to avoid the questions. We want a "yes" or "no." And be consistent with your claims

 

No, you said here that the player who
"A star player who wins the WC after scoring two goals in the finals is going to win the Ballon D'or even over a substantially better player who played an awful match in the finals."

Why did Iniesta not win it in 2010 then? Is it because he only scored one, not two goals?
Why did Modric win it in 2018? He lost and did not impress in the finals? Mbappe was the star player on the big team that won? I thought finals weigh disproportionately heavily?


Going through old convos and I saw this funny line:
"I'd love for you to tell me what Zidane did in that Brazil match that was so great. He was an attacking midfielder who literally created zero chances for his team. He got an assist from a set piece (in which the opposing team fell asleep basically). Otherwise, he really didn't do much of anything that looked quite dangerous.

Meanwhile, he certainly was accurate in his passing and impossible to take the ball off, but that describes Xavi every match. What did Zidane do against Brazil that Xavi doesn't do all the time? The only thing I can think of is that Zidane did a few flashy tricks. But the end result of those tricks wasn't any different from the end result of the pirouettes Xavi does multiple times each match."

absolutely hysterical stuff

 

This is just a completely baffling post. I have no idea how you think that this is at all relevant to the current discussion in any way or suggests that I’ve been in any way inconsistent. Messi is a star player who won the WC after scoring two goals in the finals, so me saying he’s going to win the Ballon D’or could not possibly be more consistent with what you quoted.

Meanwhile, in some bizarre failure of reading comprehension, you try to claim I’m inconsistent by using examples to which the quoted statement of me very plainly does not apply. I talked about what happens if “a star player wins the WC after scoring two goals in the finals” and you somehow try to bring up a bunch of counterexamples where a star player did not score two goals in the finals? Just really bizarre stuff. Iniesta and Mbappe did not score two goals in the finals. No one scored two goals in the World Cup Finals in 2018–and maybe if a star player like Griezmann or Mbappe had done so then Modric might not have won the Ballon D’or. The only time someone has won the World Cup while scoring two goals in the final and not won the award was Hurst in 1966, and he literally didn’t play in the first half of the tournament and lost out on the award to a substantially better player who did not “play[] an awful match in the finals” (which is the other half of what I said, in reference to R9 in 1998). As I said in that post you quoted, the finals “weigh particularly heavy on peoples' minds” and that’s a big reason Zidane won the 1998 Ballon D’or, but that doesn’t mean the finals is the only match that people consider—obviously it is not, and I’ve never suggested it was.

I’d suggest that the next time you try to look through my posts from almost a decade ago to see if there’s something you can criticize, you should at least stop for a moment or two before posting and consider whether you are actually properly applying basic reading skills in your interpretation of what I’ve written, and if not then don’t make the post.

Again, this seems like a complete reading comprehension failure from you. This was not referring to 1998. It was about the WC 2006 match against Brazil. And, lo and behold, Zidane didn’t win the Ballon D’or in 2006, so that’s not relevant here.

 

Yes, it is the 2006 WC match, I just found it highly amusing.

Anyhow, the whole point is there is no pattern at all. There is literally no pattern, but you're trying to find one!
The only one that comes to mind is Ronaldo in 2002. It is the only similar example, but the difference is Ronaldo did so with a historic world cup (goals scored) after a comeback from a career-ending injury.
Otherwise, you have not established a pattern!! That's the point!!

Zidane obviously did not win in 1998 because of "2 goals in the final"!
He was already elected in 1997 in 3rd purely based on club performances for both BDOR and FIFA POTY (unanimity). Going into the WC, he was one of the two best players on the planet! He had 5 ESM nominations that year! CL Assist leader and a fantastic CL and league campaign!

Modric won in 2018! He lost the final and did not play particularly well! But he was already at least a contender on the basis of a fantastic CL campaign!

Cannavaro won the Serie A in 2006-06 and was voted the PLAYER OF THE SERIE A! And was elected UEFA POTY! He won on the back of a whole excellent year and a wonderful performance in the WC! Not because of the WC, he was already one of the best if not the best performer in world football that season!

Neither Xavi nor Iniesta nor Sneijder nor Robben nor anybody in the vicinity of the WC final won in 2010!

In 2014, the award went to Cristiano Ronaldo who did not have a good WC showing! Messi was the "consensus best player" on the losing team in a WC final (similar to Modric no?) and did not win!!

There is NO pattern!
You are so wrong!
Like not even a bit right!
The only remotely comparable situation in Ronaldo in 2002! Only one! That's not a pattern, that's the exception!

 

At this point, you’re literally just arguing that you don’t find a post I made in 2016 particularly convincing, when it has no real relation to what we’re actually talking about in this thread. What bizarre behavior!

 

Read my new post! It's a glorious takedown!

 

LOL! Of course the standout player in the World Cup winning team often has played well otherwise. That’s not a surprise! But, of course, Paolo Rossi won the Ballon D’or in 1982 despite barely playing at club level that calendar year. What a great example of my point! And of course Messi was actually pretty great for large portions of the club season too.

Anyways, this is like the fifth rodeo of me making this same point to you across multiple different threads. It’s a waste of time. I’m right. You’re wrong. Messi is getting the Ballon D’or, and it was very obvious he was going to win the Ballon D’or the moment Argentina won the penalty shootout. And if France had won the penalty shootout, it would’ve been equally obvious that Mbappe was going to win the Ballon D’or. Deny the obvious as much as you want, but it’s really just a result of a basic lack of sense about how the world works (at least in this area).

 

I'm trying to figure out what your motives are? Like are we supposed to celebrate you as Nostradamus if Messi wins the BDOr?? What a strange attitude! Like is this some sort of hot take or insightful take? I must be missing something!
And no, for the purposes of the discussion, you have failed to establish a PATTERN wherein the Player of the WC (?finalist) team is gifted the BDor based solely on the WC or mostly on the WC. This pattern has yet to be established.

For the record, Messi was extremely poor in CL, unimpressive in the league, and won (deservedly) Golden ball for 2022 WC.
In history, there are few if any comparisons, and certainly NO PATTERN as you SO insist.

 

It’s not a hot take, nor is it an insightful one. It’s the coldest of all takes, because of how obvious it is.

And the idea that Messi was “unimpressive in the league” is pretty wild. We may need @LaPulga22 to provide some videos. And either way, there’s no argument he did less at club level than Paolo Rossi in 1982.

 

Messi vs Bayern Munich (Home)pic.twitter.com/YCaRy7HnSV

— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) February 15, 2023

I am trying to think of a worst CL performance by a top player, let alone "Ballon D'Or winner"

Messi vs Bayern Munich (Home)pic.twitter.com/YCaRy7HnSV

— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) February 15, 2023

I mean this is absolutely bottom of the barrel, horror-level bad.

@lessthanjake please provide some kind of NPV, xAG, Mbappe/teammates failed essay / narrative link! Please help!

 

Good thing he won the much more important tournament this year, and was the best player of the tournament. And good thing he was really good in the league as well.

No one with Messi’s overall year wouldn’t be given the Ballon D’or. It’s just painfully obvious. The fact that you think it’s not says quite a lot.

 

This is a shameful performance. Shameful. It's one thing to lose, it's another to be horrific.

 

And it’s another thing to win the World Cup as the clear standout player on your team. Good thing for Messi that part matters a lot more.

 

I 1000% agree. Winning the WC is certainly the biggest achievement! Good thing guys like Xavi and Iniesta did and did not win the World Cup (despite recording good to great seasons in club!) Which is why your argument of a pattern of attributing the BDor to the standout WC player is false. There is no pattern of such. The ones who did win produced elite world-class seasons.

Messi would be the first to flop in CL (he also record zero goals and assist in the cup. and we can break down his stats/contributions/ratings in Ligue 1) and win the WC and win the Ballon D'or. Now whether or not he does win, this pattern does NOT exist.

 

This is Messi's performance vs FC Lorient (club number 138 in the world per ELO rankings)


Several turnovers are cut FYI! The volume of technical errors is astounding. The physical decline, the poor passing, the meaningless 2m sideways passing. Atrocious.

 

Look, it obviously pains you that Messi will be getting his 8th Ballon D’or soon. You must’ve felt so hopeful in 2017-2018 when Ronaldo had tied Messi with 5 Ballon D’or wins, and was winning the Champions League. You probably thought a Real Madrid player would actually end with more Ballon D’or wins than Messi! But it all went wrong! Now Messi is going to be sitting on 8 Ballon D’or wins, easily clearing Ronaldo. You might instinctively want to cast doubt on that win—anything to try to mentally go back to those halcyon days when Ronaldo and Messi were both at 5. Alas, time has moved on, and Messi has achieved great things in the last several years, leaving a legacy that is completely insurmountable for Cristiano Ronaldo. It is what it is, but trying to deny that it’s very routine for Messi to get this year’s Ballon D’or is just a weird way to lash out about it. Even Messi himself has gotten more controversial Ballon D’ors than this one will be.

Lol, the fact that you say “guys like Xavi and Iniesta” and have also said Villa was Spain’s best player completely proves my point about there being no clear standout player for Spain in that World Cup. You don’t even know which Spanish player to say should’ve won the Ballon D’or! And that’s exactly why none of them did. Just a complete own-goal of an argument. There’s absolutely zero question whatsoever who Argentina’s clear standout player was and that’s why Messi will win the award.

And lol at the idea that Messi “would be the first to flop in CL . . . and win the WC and win the Ballon D’or.” Just completely false. Please tell me what guys like Matthaus, Cannavaro, Rossi, and R9 did in European club competition when they won the Ballon D’or. It ultimately just doesn’t matter much, because the World Cup is orders of magnitude more important than the Champions League, as difficult as that must be for you to admit at this point.

 

This is a childish post! I am a great fan of Modric, was overjoyed when he won, and have fought back against overzealous Cristiano fanboys that think Modric did not deserve it! In fact, I argued against you multiple times! How embarrassing you are!
Villa was Spain's best player. I am arguing against the truisms you yourself have set up previously!
Cannavaro was literally the best performer in world football or one of a couple best going into the WC! He won UEFA POTY, and his team was eliminated in the quarters to the eventual winner of the CL! Is that remotely comparable to Messi who literally flopped horribly? Cannavaro was elected not only best DEFENDER but BEST PLAYER of Serie A! Do you know how unbelievable that is?? Can your brain even grasp how amazing his club form was?

Messi joined a SEMIFINALIST/FINALIST CL team and flopped in the Round of 16!

You can't even stay on topic! Why are you proceeding with ad hominen attacks about my emotional state of which you are not privy to! What strangeness! I have to constantly redirect you on topic. Which is no BDOr winner won with a poor club season. That does not exist! You have failed to establish a pattern! Whether Messi deserves, will or won't win is not the TOPIC of conversation! We are discussing if there is such a pattern! And you have been proven decidedly wrong!!

 

Paolo Rossi won the Ballon D’or after playing 21 matches for club the entire calendar year, with only 8 goals in league+CL. R9 played a grand total of 1,318 minutes at club level in the entire 2002 calendar year and had zero goals in the CL/UEFA Cup. Meanwhile, Messi did not have a “poor club season” at all, so the ”topic” you are trying to “redirect” to is an irrelevant straw man. Not being good in two matches against Bayern doesn’t make his club season poor. He had a 41 non-PK G+A season! With some truly astonishing passing/playmaking—this is all from that season:

1679406324969361408 is not a valid tweet id

Astonishing stuff! Completely scandalous to frame this discussion as a question of whether someone “with a poor club season” can get the Ballon D’or! To the extent the topic you raise is remotely relevant, the answer is absolutely that people have done a lot less in their club season and won the Ballon D’or by being the clear standout player on the WC-winning team (and for Rossi the vote wasn’t even close). If you want to make a very narrow point that technically a clear standout on a WC-winning team might not win the Ballon D’or if they legitimately do like actually nothing at club level (like even less than Rossi, R9, etc.), then that’s fine, but is simply not at all relevant here.

 

Firstly, YOU made a claim of a pattern. Shall I quote your own words?
Anybody can look good on a compilation, especially a great player like Messi. If I showed you some other performances, it boggles the mind! Never has any Ballon D'Or winner produced any performances like the ones I linked. Shameful stuff!

A lot of these compilations cut out some of the worst stuff / turnovers! Messi was doing it at an unprecedented level. PSG was literally better without him, and the fans are furious!

 

Lionel Andres Borges Fernandes vs Nantes 04-03-2023

A good goal can change your lifepic.twitter.com/eellK3lIlS

— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) March 5, 2023

Nobody you can name was performing this poorly. Against minnows.

Rest assured guys. Yes, you are right, it is not NORMAL and rather UNPRECEDENTED to see a Ballon D'Or winner play like this. Quite shocking really.

 

No, you will not catch a Ballon D'Or winner with this volume of technical errors:

Messi vs Marseille 08-02-2023pic.twitter.com/mw7D5fRDHh

— Iniestactics (@Iniestactics) February 9, 2023

The sheer volume of poor first touches, poor dribbling, poor decision-making, turnovers in dangerous areas.
These are match highlights, not season highlights!
Damn.

 

Yes, please quote me saying exactly what you are arguing against. And really read what I’ve said, because I’ll be very disappointed in you if I need to correct your reading comprehension again because you quote something that isn’t me saying there’s a pattern of players winning the Ballon D’or with “poor” club seasons.

And yes, even Ballon D’or winners tend to have produced some weak match performances. Even peak Messi and Ronaldo did! More pertinently, you think Haaland didn’t have poor performances this past season? Who is this mythical player who should win it instead of Messi that was amazing every match? You’re also linking to videos that are not of every touch, but merely are cherry-picking out anything that isn’t good and cutting out everything that was, so it’s not an accurate representation of those matches anyways.

The bottom line is that Messi had 41 non-PK G+A last season. He led his league in Expected Assists by an absolute mile. When it comes to open-play xA, he was almost double second place. He had the highest Expected Threat in his league by a mile. He had the highest Expected Offensive Value Added by a mile. He had the league’s 3rd most progressive passes, most passes+crosses into the penalty area, 6th most passes into the attacking third, 1st most dribbles, 7th most progressive carries, by far the most Goal Creating Actions and Shot Creating Actions in the league. And his team won the league. He had a really good club season! Your idea of disproving that is to say stats don’t matter, extremely lengthy videos of great stuff doesn’t matter, and that we can see Messi had a poor club season by looking at videos that cherry-pick out the worst parts of individual matches and leave out everything else. Just a complete joke.

It’s just complete desperation to suggest Messi had a “poor” club season. And, more pertinently, for purposes of this discussion, if you think Rossi 1982 and R9 2002 had better club years than Messi did this past season, then you’re just hopeless. Messi is going to win the Ballon D’or. I’m sure it’ll be extremely upsetting to you. Another piece added to his insurmountable legacy that no Real Madrid player has ever gotten even remotely close to. But to suggest him winning the award this year is anything but routine and straightforward is just the statement of someone in complete denial. You can relax, though. This is almost certainly the last time Messi wins it, so you won’t have to go through this heartache again.

 

I'm not going to act like I was around to see Paolo Rossi play. Were you?
If Paolo Rossi is an exception to the trend, is that a pattern?
I can only discuss what I know.

 

Nothing a player does at Ligue 1/Coupe de France is meaningful to Ballon d'Or Man. This is how it works for everyone. PSG players are judged by what they does at UCL and when they fall early, it's considered a poor season at club level no matter if they win Ligue 1 with record for points and goals scored. This is just like Bayern winning Bundesliga or Ajax Winning Eredivisie or Benfica winning Portuguese Premier League. Messi is only a candidate for what he did at world cup. Not for what he did at Ligue 1. So you mentioning Messi's Ligue 1 stats is silly