All Time overrated Player´s

Discussion in 'The Beautiful Game' started by LaPulga22, Jul 28, 2023.

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  1. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    I think you’ll find that in the history of the Ballon D’or, every time the World Cup winning team had a star player that was considered their team’s clear standout player in the tournament, that player won the Ballon D’or.

    Cannavaro, R9, Zidane, Matthaus, Rossi, and Charlton all won, and in the retrospective awards that allowed non-Europeans for earlier awards, Romario, Maradona, Kempes, Pele, and Garrincha all got it. The only World Cup years where the Ballon D’or winner or retrospective Ballon D’or winner wasn’t the clear standout player from the World Cup winning team were 1974, 2010, 2014, and 2018. In 1974 and 2018, the winning team didn’t have one standout player so the winning team’s top players split votes and the Ballon D’or instead went to a player on the World Cup runner up that was the tournament’s clear standout player overall. And, in 2010 and 2014, you had a similar situation where the winning team didn’t have a clear consensus standout player and so the top players on the winning team split votes, except no one on the World Cup runner up was the tournament’s clear standout player overall. Only then was the winner not determined by the World Cup but rather given to someone with an amazing year for their club, and even then the World Cup was clearly very influential in the top several spots.

    Basically the flow chart goes like this:

    1. Is there one player on the World Cup winning team that was considered the team’s clear standout player? If yes, then that player gets the Ballon D’or. If no, then go to #2.

    2. Is there a player on the World Cup runner up team that was considered the tournament’s clear standout player? If yes, then that player gets the Ballon D’or. If no, then go to #3.

    3. Is there a player who had a superhuman year for their club? If yes, then that player gets the Ballon D’or. If no, then go to #4.

    4. [#4 has never been reached. But I assume that if #3 wasn’t satisfied, then it’d most likely kind of loop back to #1 and the Ballon D’or would probably go to whoever on the World Cup winning team managed to get the most out of the split votes]
     
  2. reckless_mf

    reckless_mf Member

    Nov 15, 2009
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    #952 reckless_mf, Sep 29, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2023
    Zidane

    He was a great talent and very aesthetic to watch but people rate him way too high. Great for some key matches but not consistent. Those two headers really changed the world's perception of him.

    I would put Platini and Zico comfortably ahead of him.
    Platini in Euro 84 was far superior to Zidane in Euro 2000 or WC 2006 and there is no question he is France's greatest ever player.
     
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  3. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    #953 OffTheBallMovement, Sep 29, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2023
    I don't think Cannavaro were the "clear standout player" of Italy in WC 2006. For me it was Pirlo. And in 2002 were Rivaldo. And how Germany 74 didn't had a clear standout player? It were Beckenbauer Man. What's more, why do you think the rule #2 didn't applied in 2014?
     
  4. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Thoughts @Loco
     
  5. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    The consensus simply didn’t agree with you in 2002 and 2006. And was Beckenbauer the clear standout player for Germany or was Breitner or Muller better? Factually speaking, Breitner and Muller took enough votes that Beckenbauer barely lost the award. And Rule #2 didn’t apply in 2014 because Messi wasn’t the clear best player of the tournament (and also voter fatigue since the man had won the award 4 straight times recently). He won the Golden Ball, but I think we can all agree it wasn’t a Cruyff 1974 situation.
     
  6. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You need the WC to be truly considered one of the GOAT. Its the most coveted trophy in all sports, and its a huge notch on the old belt for a player.

    And how you win the WC does matter. While Pele has 3 WC, he was really only dominant in one WC. In '62 he only played one full match, was subbed out of the second game and didn't play the rest. And in the 1970 WC win, it was really a team effort.

    Maradona's 1986 WC stands above all team sports achievements by a single player, imo. And this is why Maradona's WC is so special. Its not just that he won, its that he carried the entire team (we all know the stories). Bilardo organized a 3-5-2, but should really be called 3-4-2 +Diego allowed to roam where-ever he wanted. Argentina lined up with 3 CB and midfielders that were only required to defend. The only players that would run with Maradona were Valdano and Burruchaga, who were ok players but great players. Its insane that this formation worked because not only was Maradona required to create, control the midfield, but also score goals.

    Also, and can't be overlooked, Maradona was fouled on almost every possession. In the first 10 mins Fenwick gets a yellow card for a hard foul on Diego that would've been a red today. In addition, there are 3 other instances that Diego gets elbowed to the head (47 min and 55 mins). In the 47 min, it was Butcher that hits Diego in the head and when Diego gets up and complains to Butcher and Reid, both English players just looked at him like "WTF do you expect today?"

    And Mardona's subtle genius is revealed in the goal of the century; Fenwich is the guy that chases Maradona at first and again at almost the last second could tackle Maradona, but even in the middle of that crazy run Diego was aware that Fenwick was on a Yellow so Diego doesn't pass teh ball to a streaming Burruchaga on the right and takes shot himself. The very last 3-5 seconds of the run of the goal of the century, you can see that Diego subtlely opens his hips to fool Fenwick as if he is going to pass to Burruchaga, but that is all Diego needed to fool the English defender.

    What a player. There is no doubt that 1986 Diego is the highest level a player achieved in a team sport. Maybe Michael Jordan's initial 3 titles is close to "one guy did it all" but the WC is much higher stakes.

    You have to watch the games to discuss this stuff.

    Saying Diego is overrated is not just the dumbest f#$ing thing someone can say, its also shows that the person has a personal axe to grind here.
     
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  7. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    So Messi was not a GOAT before 2022? Got it.

    Agreed with all the Diego stuff btw.
     
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  8. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Lionel Messi scored 3 goals (2 NPG) in his last 810 minutes in the CL KOs.
    PSG in the UCL before Messi's arrival 19/20: Final 20/21: Semifinals With Messi 21/22: Round of 16 22/23: Round of 16 Messi has 0 goals in 360 minutes in the UCL knockouts for PSG.

    Dropped one of the worst technical displays of any top player I know of:


    We need to start talking about this guy's performance in Europe for the last 10 years! Shocking stuff!
     
  9. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Retrospective awards mean nothing, so we can scratch those off. They do not follow the same procedure of voting as the standard award (different mechanism of selection) and of course are so far removed from the fact, cannot be trusted to not be influenced by bias, narratives, and the biases of retrospective analysis half a century removed from these events. In all likelihood, I would bet my house the guys who made these did not rewatch the players' seasons and world cups - so it's superfluous.

    Cannavaro was probably the best player for Italy, but there are many who thought Pirlo was better. Zidane in 1998 did not place in the Top 3 WC Golden Ball (vote done before the final) and you are on record as downplaying that performance! So, let's scratch those two as well.
    Modric won, while on the losing team.
    Iniesta never won in 2010.
    There really is no such pattern!
     
  10. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    ugh. You're doing that thing that everyone hates and its the reason why people hate having any kind of serious discussion on a social media platform. Someone says "X" and then the other person takes "X" adds their own bullsh#t conclusion that will annoy the other person and calls it a victory. Congratulations on acting like a 6 year old.

    Messi obviously reached the mountain top after 2022 and he cannot be denied the top 3 spot on the all time GOAT discussion. Its Pele, Diego and Messi - and I don't begrudge the order anyone has them in. I have my preference on how I would arrange the 3, but for me what is indisputable is that those 3 players are the only players worthy of the GOAT status. And again, in any order.

    And the reason it has to be in "any order" its mainly because the era difference. The 50-early 70s, 80-90s, and the 2000s. All three different and very distinctive eras. The football that Pele used is considered a brick in today's standards. The way Maradona was fouled during his career would lead to homicide charges today. But yet, neither Pele nor Diego faced the high level competition that Messi did.

    You can't overrate Pele, Diego or Messi, because they are the greatest the game has ever seen.

    Now, I am sure that you are going to cherrypick some small part of the my overall position, and try to score points. meh.
     
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  11. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Listen, I asked you a straight question that you dodged. Messi had not won the world cup prior to Dec 2022. Is he an almost GOAT prior to that? That's all I ask. Do you agree by your logic he was an almost GOAT prior? Yes or no. Let's keep this simple.

    Marsdona played in a more competitive environment by far as compared to Messi! So that part is demonstrably wrong in your post!
     
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  12. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    I would say that on pure ability, he would've always been in the conversation of GOAT. But ultimately, this is sports. And winning matters.

    The Messi defenders could always say that he was the most talented, all his Balons could help the argument, blah bla blah but without the WC it would've been impossible to continue to make the argument.

    take a guy like Cristiano that always chokes playing for his national team, never scores when the game is on the line and in his only final had to be substituted out. He could NEVER be in the discussion of Mess, because as we now agree, you need the WC - or something equivalent. Which CR7 will NEVER EVER have. Because its over for him. over.
     
  13. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    So he was an almost GOAT before?
    That's all I ask. Yes or no. No need to drag in haters or lomg explanations.
    Simple yes or no. It's not a trick question in the slightest. There is no gotcha.
     
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  14. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    And CR7, never even scored in a knockout stage of the WC. Blah. What an overrated choke artist.
     
  15. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Messi had never scored with more matches, minutes, and shots before December 2022.
    Was he "an overrated choke artist"?
    What's up with Messiphiles and their absurd double standards?
     
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  16. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    Its not how many times you fall down, its if you can take the hit and get back up. And the little guy did that and then some.

    Your boy choked and did nothing. NOTHING.
     
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  17. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Not my boy. Just asking you to apply the same standard. But I realize that seems beyond your abilities.
     
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  18. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    You're sad.

    you have nothing to point at, so now you're making stuff up.

    I get it, you're a CR7 fanboy with posters of him shirtless above your bed and can't comprehend why everyone doesn't see your boy the same way you do. boohooo.

    No WC titles for your boy. And get ready for Balon d'Or #8
     
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  19. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    Reported. This is such a weird and aggressive reply. Messi fans have some weird inferiority complex and mental health issues to sort out. Go in my post history, I'm one of the few who said Cristiano underperformed in WC.
     
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  20. Loco

    Loco Member+

    River Plate
    Argentina
    May 1, 2005
    Miami
    Nat'l Team:
    Argentina
    There is one thing that your boy has more than Messi . . . and we all know that is the real reason he can't come to the US.

    And Cristiano didn't "underperform", he CHOKED repeatedly in the WC. C'mon, no goals in a knockout stage!?!? EVER???? That's a choke artist.
     
  21. lessthanjake

    lessthanjake Member+

    May 9, 2015
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    #971 lessthanjake, Sep 29, 2023
    Last edited: Sep 29, 2023
    What’s your point here? The Golden Ball in 1998 was voted on before the finals. After the finals, Zidane was considered the standout player for France, and he got the Ballon D’or. In retrospect, one can certainly argue for Thuram, but Zidane was a major star and the general consensus at the time after the Finals was that Zidane was France’s standout, which is why Thuram finished only a distant 7th in Ballon D’or voting. And again, one could argue in retrospect for Pirlo in 2006 but the consensus at the time was that Cannavaro was Italy’s standout player (and even Buffon was considered above Pirlo).

    Modric was addressed in my post. There was not considered one standout player for France in 2018—Griezmann and Mbappe split votes and credit, so Modric won the Ballon D’or as the clear standout on the WC runner up. I have no idea why you’re mentioning Iniesta, as neither of us think he was Spain’s best player in 2010.

    Overall, I just don’t even know what you’re arguing. The idea that being the clear standout player on the World Cup winning team doesn’t routinely lead to winning the Ballon D’or is nonsense. Messi is going to get the award and there’s essentially nothing that could ever be a less controversial Ballon D’or than getting it as the World Cup winner’s obvious standout player. The only times a player on the World Cup winning team doesn’t win the Ballon D’or (besides years where they weren’t eligible) is when there’s not a consensus about who on the team was best and therefore multiple players on the team split votes enough that none of them win. That clearly won’t happen this time, because Messi was obviously Argentina’s best player.
     
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  22. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Simple question: Varane > Maldini?

    Pelé were the clear standout player in the 70 WC. 58 he made the best KO ever and in 62 he were torn apart by defenders

    So he made saves on the goal, marked the attackers, recovered the ball, progressed, built, created plays and finished everything alone? Argentina were a great team in 86 Man
     
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  23. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Be consistent man. Don't you use the WhoScored ratings to say that Messi is better than Ronaldo?

    Look at the highest rated players on the last 4 WC winning teams by sofascore:

    2018 Griezmann
    2014 Kroos
    2010 Xavi
    2006 Pirlo

    None of them won the Ballon d'Or.

    You'll probably say they weren't the "clear" standout players. But then neither was Ronaldo in 2002 (Rivaldo), Zidane in 98 (Thuram), Romário in 94 (Dunga, Branco, Bebeto), Kempes in 78 (Passarella, Ubaldo Fillol), etc...
     
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  24. OffTheBallMovement

    Real Madrid
    Brazil
    Jul 18, 2023
    Messi hadn't a single goal in a K.O. stage prior to 2022. Where were you in 2021? Were you saying that Messi were a choke artist on that time?
     
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  25. SayWhatIWant

    SayWhatIWant Member+

    Jan 10, 2015
    What a takedown!! Well done
     
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