I have to agree the Blanc/Desailly pairing was expectional and balanced. What do you think about Ribery? IMO when it's all said and done he has a great case for the 2nd team. Maybe even already.
Nice teams. I don't think Ribery should be there. He's an excellent club-player but rarely delivers for France. Ginola underperformed with NT but his exceptional skills could be enough to include him. I'd personally include Jean Vincent ahead of them however : he was skilled, consistent and performed greatly with club (Reims) and France. Another name to consider is GK Georges Carnus. He was great, at least at the level of Bats, but he was unlucky to play in the darkest age of French football (60's - 70's).
See my previous post What has he done with NT since 4-5 years ? Almost nothing. Ribery is great with club but desperately poor with France.
Another name that is curiously forgotten is Youri Djorkaeff. If Pires is included, why Djorkaeff isn't ? He's been much more important for France than Pires ever was.
To be fair France has been rather poor overall in the last few years and he certainly has not the same quality to work with like the early 00s and early 80s generation. Eric Cantona also doesn't have a glorious history with the NT. I guess then it depends if you want to make a team of the best players overall with French nationality or best players for their national team.
That's right but still - you could expect a player of Ribery's caliber to carry the team a bit more than he did with France. Cantona doesn't have a great history with NT but at least he had pretty decent numbers : 20 goals in 45 games while playing with players who were not better than those who surround Ribery. Ribery's numbers are low : he scores and set up very few goals. That's right but even considering that, does Ribery deserve to be ahead guys like Vincent, Rocheteau, Six, Ginola to name a few ?
Pires made the assist to the golden goal... I also believe his peak was better. Made a while ago an overview and he belongs to the best finishers in EPL history too (remarkably, Henry was rather poor in that department). Ribery has had also a few mediocre (below radar) club seasons. Obviously not in the past one and a half years. Don't think he belongs in a second team. Cantona has better credentials I think. For some years best EPL player, instrumental in reviving Leeds/Manchester United and so on. Ribery did little memorable for his clubs I think. The Blanc-Desailly partnership was good but I side a bit with Pipiolo here that it is also hindsight reasoning. France team was a few times close to elimination. I think it was the best partnership of their generation but others at that time were strong too (Nesta-Cannavaro/Maldini or Stam-De Boer; Brazil had at that time also an unusual good defense from a historical perspective).
That is a good point but it does not cover the intangibles, certainly in a partnership or with support from a pair in midfield. For example: it is possible that one CB do not appear in the stats while the other does. However, the first one might still make it easier for the second one. Closing passing lanes, closing options, marking a CF etc. do not appear in stats. You see the same in other team sports (handball/basketball/hockey/you name it); with one part of the partnership doing intangible (pressurizing, harassing) work at defense while the other one accumulates turnovers/steals/whatever.
It makes little doubt Djorkaeff had a better international carreer with France than Pires. Djorkaeff was the ultimate clutch player. Pires had a higher peak indeed but he somewhat underrachieved with France IMHO. It's not entirely his fault though as he was very unlucky to get injured right before the WC02. Plus the fact Domenech refused to pick him for non-footballistic reasons. I agree. Cantona - and also a bunch of other players - should be picked ahead of him. Cantona's carreer with France is often underrated. He scored a decent amount of goals and set up many more. His partnership with Papin was perhaps the best France ever had. But of course they underrachieved. It's not entirely their fault though. That's right. But still... How many other CB pairs were so dominant for so long ? I know it also depends on the quality of players surrounding them etc but it's hard to find a pair as successful as them.
I also think you tend to exaggerate the achievements of many of the WC98 France players. I remember before you claimed that Thuram's performance was as good or possibly better than Maldini's at WC94, which is simply not true, now you are claiming Desailly-Blanc are the best ever CB partnership at international level. I don't see how they have more quality than Nesta - Cannavaro for instance.
I maintain what I said about Thuram. I got the feeling that Maldini's achievements are somewhat exaggerated because he's... Maldini. He's sometimes given a near god status that he didn't always deserve, as great as he was. A few some other fullbacks reached his level. Thuram was clearly one of them. About Nesta - Cannavaro, you're probably right : it's one of the few CB pair that in terms of quality was on par with the French one. I don't think it was superior however, either individually or as a unit. Individually, everything Cannavaro did, Desailly did it before. As for Nesta, he's one of the best balanced defender I saw, perhaps more than Blanc. Blanc's aerial game and offensive abilities evens out that.
Again you are overrating Thuram, he had Desailly and Blanc next to him, whom you are rating here as the greatest NT CB pairing ever. Maldini by contrast had Costacurta and Benarrivo, very good ones but no all-timers. Furthermore, Maldini could not be passed but once or twice the entire WC, whereas Thuram was dribbled by a few more times, including by Benitez, Suker and Baggio. I would say Nesta has far more football ability than Blanc as well as much offensive power, Blanc is only better aerially but that's a small category. Cannavaro and Desailly are about even, I would say Desailly had a stronger club career, at NT level is about equal but Cannavaro has the great WC06 performance.
<body><p><p> Thuram had the edge over maldini in almost every areas, defensively or offensively, and that includes duels won stats in which Thuram has a significant advantage. He was surrounded by better players perhaps but it's not like if Maldini played for Luxembourg... Again there s no need to give Maldini a near god status. Blanc was remarkable at moving forward. At best Nesta was equal to him. He was certainly not better in terms of individual skills. Blanc was also a goalscoring threat, something Nesta was not. And I think aerial game is a very important aspect of the game for CB. Cannavaro was not better in 2006 than Desailly in 98...
Ben Barek has a solid reputation as a AT great. What about other PreWW players like Rene Petit, Thepot, Chayrigues or Mattler. Any of them had a chance to make unless a C-team?
Thuram may have better stats because France's opponents had much less firepower than Italy's, a quick glance at their respective matchups for WC94 and 98: Mexico, Ireland = Denmark, South Africa Nigeria >> Paraguay Spain > Italy Bulgaria < Croatia Brazil = Brazil Cannavaro came runner up in WC voting in WC06, Desailly for WC98 is nowhere near a contender. I am rating them as equals overall, but Nesta > Blanc by the same standard.
Yes, Ben Barek is an obvious choice. Rene Petit is hardly known in France, curiously. He made most of his carreer in Spain. He would have a hard time to make the C-team as France is not short of good offensive players. Mattler might be a good pick for the C team indeed. Behind the obvious choices Desailly, Blanc, Tresor and perhaps Bossis and Battiston (if you pick them as CB and not as fullbacks) there is no stand-out player. France doesn't have so much depth at the CB position. Mattler might be a good pick, as well as Bosquier and perhaps Gallas. The GK position is perhaps the most difficult one. Behind Barthez and perhaps Darui there's no solid contender for the 3rd spot : Thepot and Chayrigues could be considered indeed but René Vignal (He's as known however for the armed robberies he did after he retired -he made 27 !- than for his carreer as a GK. He spent 15 years in prison !), Georges Carnus, Marcel Aubour, Joël Bats, Bruno Martini and Bernard Lama would be solid contenders too.
Spain had more firepower than Italy ? I can't see many differences between both matchups, to be honest. That can't explain the difference. WC votings are poor criterias to conclude Cannavaro 06 was better than Desailly 98. He was significantely better than Desailly in one area : clearances (65 for Cannavaro vs 50 for Desailly). In other areas they're either on par or Desailly has a confortable edge. And of course I diagree with your assumption Nesta was superior to Blanc. As I said Nesta was a more naturally gifted defender but Blanc's all-around offensive game (that includes his goalscoring ability) as well his aerial game evens out that.
Forgive Pipolio ... he jumped in without verifying (the fact) 1- AtWC 94: Like you confirmed, Desailly was NOT a CB , but a left back, and that winner goal was at the counter on the right flank - faulty of Petit - Blanc came back with a late block,. So NOTHING to do with bad pair Desailly and Blanc 2- At WC98: again one more mistake ,,, Canavaro was playing a right DF, NEVER as a "pair with Nesta" at all ... in Gorup Maldini and Canavaro were both fullback (Nesta + costacurta middle) and in sudden dead round, Maldidni and pessoto as LB with Bergomi as CB...
Yes, Spain had a bit more firepower than Italy who only counted on Vieri that WC (Baggio was underutilized). I feel that you make too big claims for Thuram, Desailly and Blanc, and I find it strange that no one else has challenged them. By the way, Terry and Ferdinand also have great stats for England at WC06, and career wise they are close to Desailly and Blanc, yet their overall play is not enough to rate them so highly. So it is not just about stats. By the way, in the WC98 final, when Edmundo came in he unsettled the French defense for those 30 minutes, including setting up Ronaldo on a one on one with Barthez, which the French keeper won. Again, Desailly and Blanc were saved by a team mate but this you overlook.
OK , but they were not exactly a "pair" CB per se, at Euro 2000 Italy played as 5 3 2 with Canavaro Nesta and Iuliano as 3 DF
That's irrelevant, it's still 11 players on the field. Adding one CB means there is one less player elsewhere.
Italy had Del Piero as well, and when Baggio came in that game in he was quite dangerous as I remember. Terry and Ferdinand have stats that compare to those of Blanc and Desailly in some areas, but the French pair have a clear edge in crucial ones. No other CB pair have had better WC stats than the French one since 1966, simple as that. It's not only stats, but achievements and longevity as well : if you combine those three criterias, the Blanc-Desailly pair is the greatest one. A few other pairs were probably on par with it in terms of quality (EC00 Nesta-Cannavaro is probably one of them) but none combined quality with longevity and achievements like the French pair did. That's all. Blanc didn't play the WC final. By the way, I don't know why you focus on one single action. Every defenses -even the best ones- got exposed at times. You need to see the whole picture instead.