All the Bush Cowboys Have Chinese Eyes

With your first point, we will just have to disagree, as I think its not short-sighted at all but simply realistic. Just because a wage isn't the same in the US as it is somewhere else in the world doesn't mean its not a living wage in that place.

Beyond that, China, today in 2005, is far from a totalitarian regime. The changes that have occurred in China are unbelievable and they've come through engagement with the West. Why should we treat China as are enemy? The Chinese have shown a constant willingness to deal with the US peacefully and, if not as friends, at least as colleagues. We live in a world that can't simply be dictated to by one country, if you don't think the US needs China econmically, it definitely needs China to deal with North Korea and Asia needs China as a protector against Japan.

 

I don't believe I talked about "a wage" at all. The issue of what is a living wage anywhere is immaterial to the discussion of the trade policy that a nation should pursue.

Oh, so they got rid of that dictator while I wasn't looking and held free elections. Thanks for updating me.

Why did they ram our EP-3 over international waters? Is this the action of a nation that has "shown a constant willingness to deal with the US peacefully"? You have an interesting definition of willingness to deal peacefully my friend. They are not our friends. They are at best rivals and they have abused the mantle of friendship to achieve this.
As to the North Korean issue- once again, who is more in danger here? North Korea can fire existing missiles armed with nuclear weapons into Beijing TODAY.
As to Japan attacking Asia, what are they going to do that with? Japan have one of the smallest armed forces for a nation it's size in the world, and a constituion that is so restrictive it had to be modified so that military medical people can be sent outside the country. Is your beloved China willing to sign up to that? No. They are much more interested in threatening Taiwan.

 

On Japan first, its quite obvious the US would never be willing to sign onto that. I'm not going to get into it, but China has a right to "threaten" Taiwan as Taiwan is a province of China and this is something that even the US government "officially" recognizes. Either you don't know of the current state of debate in Japan and its military capabilities or you're ignoring reality. Japan has the most technologically advanced military operations in the world, nearly equal to that of the US. Beyond that, there are those in Japan who'd be more than happy to revoke that Article in their Constitution or simply ignore it.

While North Korea could, in theory, attack China, that's not going to happen anytime soon, and I think we all know that. China is motivated in dealing with North Korea because China wants to see stability in Asia and also has its own problem with North Korean immigrants (think about the US-Mexican border problem and multiply it by 100).

You're rehashing of the spy plane incident is just pitiful. It would be like me discussing the US' bombing of sovereign, Chinese territory when it attacked the embassy in Belgrade, but I'm not going to do that. No relationship can ever be entirely without disagreements, but an open dialogue is required in fixing those disagreements, that's what exists today between the US and China and that's a good thing.

Free elections doesn't equal democracy (cough cough 2000 anyone?). I never said that China was a democracy, but that today their people have freedoms that were never imagined before and many of those have been brought on by engagement with the West.

I don't have a problem with those that fear China because of its growing economic and military power. I do have a problem with people who couch their argument about China in outdated "Cold War" terms as an argument against Communism as today's China is, to a greater extent, a place where the majority of its citizens can feel "free." W is narrow minded and stupid and sees the world as friends or enemies and is willing to put China in the enemies category and that's unfortunate. Clinton and Bush I had a far more internationalist attitude, the type that is needed in this new global world we live in.

 

Bury your head in sand and ignore all the positive changes for everyone to see that have happened in the last 25 years in China and accuse the Chinese as your enemy. Throw in a few random scary rephrased sentences from the Cold War era. And end it by saying the Chinese are not friends.

Your point isn't that subtle really and I've gotten it loud and clear since your first posts about China and the Chinese.

He is not US-centric. He is China-centric. All his logics start with the allegation that the Chinese are enemies and end with Chinese are not friends. And his solution is that Americans should hurt the Chinese anyway they could even it means hurting themselves.

 

You are simply out of your league here. While the Japanese military is technologically excellent, it has basically no force projection ability at all. You may have heard of the terms "airlift" and "sealift". They have none that could conceivably threaten the PRC. None. Zilch. Zero. As to Taiwan, the US has repeatedly told the PRC to stay out of Taiwanese affairs. That Taiwan is a province of China is not in dispute. Who the rightful rulers of all of the provinces is what should be. Despite this, those in the PRC who want to rattle their sabers choose this issue to do it over.

Duh. I was speaking in potentialities here. The NKs could strike Beijing. At this point, they could not launch a missile into US territory. China has a dog in this fight is all I'm saying. They are not participating just for the good of mankind.

You just did. And if you cannot see the difference in a mistake that was immediately apologized for and a deliberate act of air piracy, then you are amazingly dense, to say the least.

I don't think I've ever disagreed with this sentiment.

And what do you think was wrong with 2000? The system worked. While you may not agree with the result and like to keep whining on for five years, the system worked exactly as it was designed to. You don't hear the most ardent supporter of Gore still whining about this one. I think you are pretty much in a class by yourself here. China is nowhere close to a democracy. What "reforms" are going on are to try to placate an increasingly restless populace that the government has made the mistake of educating. This populace is not going to put up with the FACT that one can learn more about China from the US than they can from inside China. Seriously, if China's so great, why are you here? You and IM could take up a collection and be out of this awful place.

Tell that to the prisoners forced to work in factories to produce goods for export. Tell that to the workers in the enterprise zones who will be forced out after 5 years. I can definitely see why you put free in quotation marks. Ever notice how we don't have to do that here?

Commercially, the PRC is at best a rival, but militarily, they are clearly a potential enemy. You are incredibly naive'.

 

I won't waste any more time with you as you read what you want and talk out of your ass. I could care less about your pathetic dictator and his country if my country wasn't so idiotic in the way we make trade agreements.

 

You could care less about a country that you've based your whole agenda on by trying to make it out to be an enemy? Typically disingenuous of you.

BTW America is as much my country as yours. My vote has just as much power as yours.

Why should he? He is an American who is advocating responsible policies for the best interests of America, unlike you who completely disregard America's best interests and is hell-bent on picking a fight with a country that's not only been one of the growth engines of the world economy recently but has also acted prudently and responbily in regional and global matters.

Maybe you should be the one to think about packing up and moving back to whatever country you or your ancestors immigrated to America from.

 

My whole agenda- LOL. If you try real hard, you and your nation may make it to "pathetically immaterial". You're definitely in the "massively overrated" category right now.

Yeah right, America is definitely your country. You and Iranian Monitor should start a "Why I love the USA" thread together.
And as for the vote, unless you also live in DC, (which I don't know since you have figured out the little buttons that let you do this) your vote probably means more than mine, but that's for another thread.

 

My my, we are a quick little one on the edit key tonight, aren't we.
As you say, you and IM seem to have much in common. BTW, show me where I've advocated picking a fight with China? You're an idiot and ought to go on back to that little farm in the worker's paradise you so obviously drea of, dreamer. As for me, there's no other country ahead of the USA.

 

Speaking of reading what one wants to read and talking out of one's ass. Learn how to read first. It'll do you good.

Now you've finally lost your cool and told us what you really think about China, not that menacing dragon that it's been portrayed to be by the mainstream media, China is indeed in the "massively over-exaggerated" category. It's only a big ancient country that has suffered enough and finally put its house in order for a couple of decades. You and your cronies have done a hell of job exaggerating how much of a "potentiality" as you put it, that China could become a strategic competitor of the US. China's GDP is only 1/3 of Japan's despite population being 10 times in size and its military is decades behind Japan.

Yeah right, America is definitely my country!! In fact I've made an effort to move to America and have chosen to become an American, unlike you who was just born into it by accident. That, I think, explains why I treasure America and the American Dream more than you do.

I don't need to start any threads. You, on the other hand, may want to start a thread "Why I hate America so much that I want ordinary Americans to pay a lot more for their basic goods and I want to send them to fight phantom enemies of my choosing."

 

You're the expert.

Wow. It's a good thing that I'm the one that's lost my cool. BTW, when you lose yours, your reading comprehension drops pretty severely.

Are all immigrants as insecure as you? I don't think so. I know literally hundreds and they don't seem to harbor your combination of insecurity and desire to be back home. You really seem to be stuck between two cultures. I'd recommend professional help.

Wow. Just wow. That vein in your forehead is REALLY bulging now.

 

BWAHAHA. Iranian Monitor doesn't give a sh!t about America and claims he will be moving back to Iran shortly.

I have absolutely nothing against China. In fact, I hold Chinese culture in the highest regard, but the best interest of America does not lie with trading our jobs and much of our wealth for worthless crap that will end up in landfills.

 

No need to be modest. You're the best.

And I did agree with you it's a good thing. You finally could tell the truth for once. Feels good doesn't it? You should try that more often.

Bravo!

 

This is not a thread about Iran or IM so I made no comments on either Iran or IM.

"He" was in reference to "Cheng", whom topcatcole asked to leave the country with IM. Please read again.

As to the rest of your message, I don't know why you're calling the products most ordinary Americans buy and use every day worthless crap. But at the least, thanks to free trade, they haven't had to pay unnecessarily high prices for the basic goods. In any event, if these products don't come from China, they'll come from Vietnam of Thailand or Indonesia or India or Pakistan as I pointed out to you in another thread.

 

They're mostly nondurables of low quality.

That much is true.

Eureka! This isn't really about China, it's about the future of America. Or whether America will be an Argentina or worse Brazil in 50-100 years.

One reason I abhor our trade policies is that, like the war in Iraq, Americans are clueless about the true cost of these policies. At the moment, others are paying the tab. China is paying for the Iraq war! And our reckless & insane consumption. Some day the bill will come due. On that day, the American dream will finally RIP.

 

Oh you are the witty one! You are the first to discover that the text inside the quotes can be edited- what a genius!!

See Ben's post. Maybe some of that will sink in through your thick skull.

 

Finally, you get to the point I have been making all day. As to what era you are living in, I can't help you there.

 

Your stinging wit slays me again.

And this is based on what the Japanese did in the 1930's and '40's. By a totally different government type, with a totally different economic model. And then you have the nerve to worry about the "cold warrior mentality". Get a grip. Think before writing.

Clearly, you don't understand. And, as you are arguing with a State's rights advocate, I do believe that if Texas wanted to leave the Union it should be allowed to do so. I think it would be a foolish mistake, but it is for Texans to decide.

Do you always repeat things like that? I didn't realize you were in the targeting loop when that target was selected. I bow to your superior knowledge .

This makes everything else you have written look positively brilliant.

You seem to prefer the Chinese ways, I was just trying to help. Where did I say most of what you accuse me of?

Try again:
http://www.uscc.gov/researchpapers/2000_2003/reports/pris_02.htm
There's plenty more if you google "China prison labor". It was real complicated.

Show me where I have shown myself to be a "rabid China hater". Anywhere. Please. Ben is right on AND he's making exactly the same point I made earlier, but you may have missed that while you were doing your daily exercise of "jumping to conclusions".