Re: Will and Should The A-League Have Promotion and Relegation With A Lower League? "The AFC reportedly have made participation in the Asian Champions League contingent on compliance with these demands, as federations who do not comply will have positions taken away from them starting in 2012." If this is the case then so be it. We simply cannot support a pro/rel system in this country. Where would investors come from? Fanbase? Besides, the A-league would fold within a few seasons as the relegated clubs (most likley already under financial pressures) hemorrhage money beyond belief, leaving the owners of the other clubs wanting to sell their stakes given the threat of the same thing happening to them. Most championship clubs in the A-league end up having shocker seasons next go round. Who would want to invest in this climate? The ACL has its perks and all, but lets be honest, Melb Victory drew crowds of around 4000 to some of their games this year, despite averaging 15 000 in the regular season Sydney- around 7000, not much better. "and the Grand Final was watched by over 400,000 fans – roughly half the number of fans who watched the 2010 MLS Cup, which was the lowest-rated, least-watched MLS Cup on English-language television." Stupid comparison. Australia's population is 22 million. The United states 300 million. "The question is, can an A-League television rights package generate enough revenue to provide the necessary amount of money to alleviate the inevitable loss of income that will come from being a member of the B-League?" no.... I would stake my life on it that it wouldn't... "Australia’s perils or profits can serve as a roadmap for the future of promotion and relegation in American soccer." Why? USA has a plethora of sizable markets to invest franchises in. Australia is struggling to get by in the ones we have already tapped into! That should be reason enough not to compare the two.
I posted this way back in July, but it explains why pro/rel is not feasible for any national sporting league in Australia. Bear in mind that A-League clubs could possible have higher transport costs due to not having half the teams in a single city, having a Perth-Wellington transport and having a continental league.
To build a 2nd div would be quite easy have the FFA outsource the 2nd div to FNSW and remove the red tape to build on to the nswpl by allowing them to poach Brisbane Strikers, Canberra FC , Melbourne Knights, South Melbourne. Smaller clubs would religate themselves leaving room for Adelaide city and other respective clubs whether you have a P/R attached would be another issue entirely
AFC seems to be going the opposite direction with this considering they just gave Australia a 3rd spot in ACL...
no, we cant stay in the AFC but under their conditions, they will have to make some allowances for certain countrys that are good enough to compete in the AFC but cannot possibly due to some pretty obvious reasons, have a competative well financed and supported second tier. It says alot about us that we can compete as well with just one tier.
Australian Football has a lot to recommend it without promotion and relegation. The A-League needs many more years to develop before it could sustain such a competition. I think the aforementioned concepts of Geography ( a continent), urban based life (five cities on the coast) and the fact that no sport code has ever developed such 2nd tier codes in Australia pretty much sums it up for Australia. Celebrate the A-League for what it is. We are still welcome in the AFC so lets just show them waht we can do.
The very concept of promotion and relegation makes sense only when the number of sustainable clubs reaches twenty-two, otherwise you just won't get enough teams for two tiers. A-League has less than half so there's still a very long way to go, and I wonder if this will ever happen in this country.
Thats because they are the two biggest sports in one smally populated country, they are in effect cancelling out each others second division that would get well supported and funded, if there was only the AFL in this country, or only the NRL. If it was only Football on this country getting the massive support those two codes have, then we could easily have a second division here. For example pretend this was reality, an Australia where rugby league and AFL are minor sports, and Football was the only code on TV and well attended - Premier League 1. Sydney City 2.Melbourne Victory 3.Newcastle 4.Perth Glory 5.West Melbourne 6.Auckland 7.Gold Coast 8. Central Coast 9.Sydney United 10.Collingwood 11.Adelaide United 12.Christchurch 13.Port Adelaide 14.Geelong 15.Townsville 16.Canberra Championship League 1. Illawarra 2. Greater Western Sydney 3. Brisbane Hollandia 4. Sunshine Coast 5. Ipswich-Logan 6. Rockhampton 7. Melbourne Hearts 8. Essendon 9. Heidleburg 10.East Melbourne 11.Hobart 12.Fremantle 13.Darwin 14.Port Moresby 15.Wellington 16. Riverina They could be the teams making up the top two divisions, and of course you would have Division 1 and Division 2 of clubs that rarely make it to the premiership or stay long there, but still an important part of their communitys. The above is sheer fantasy and wishful thinking of course, and would and will never happen here, so my purpose was to show we could have in this country 2 divisions and more for Football, if AFL/NRL were minor sports here. We are a sports loving nation, and if football was the number one ball code, and virtually the only one to play, watch and discuss for 90% of Australia, then this would definitely work here, the size of out population has got nothing at all to do with it, its our preference for other sports that hinder this from happenning.
We do, like most of our peer nations, have the scope for more than one football code. Aussie Rules sits very deep in Australian culture, especially in our country towns. The AFL teams are full of country boys but soccer has not yet developed that penetration into our rural life. Given rural decline I do wonder if it ever can. NRL has more history in NSW & Qld but I don't think it is a force in National Football. State of Origin and Tri Nations Rugby Union is about as big as it gets.
Historically outside QLD and NSW Rugby League is a nothing sport. It has garnered a niche following in some other major urban areas like Melbourne, probably more through population distribution from city to city over time. AFL is certainly the more established national sport. I've always wondered what game is played in far west QLD and NSW?
The NRL will be expanding this decade to 20 teams. 1 in WA, so it will be more national, it rates bigger viewing numbers on TV than AFL, and 4 of the top 5 games watched last season were NRL. The State of Origin gets more viewers than the AFL Grand final.
Its growing steadily stronger in WA and NZ, is the ACT number one sport, PNG's national sport and is steadily growing stronger in France and Noth England again, more people watch and play it in the world than AFL. RIP for Arthur 'Artie' Beetson as well, died yesterday 9 am age 66, an Australian rugby league and sporting legend, a great ambassador for the aboriginal people, and a great all round bloke.
I think the A-League can sustain pro/reg. They just need to get to at least 12 teams then build up each states local statewide league. Once that happens they can have a playoff between each states league winner until you get a champ. Hell to make it even harder you can have that team play the bottom team from the A-League to see who stays. Not pure pro/reg but its better than nothing. (Not saying its needed, just think it can be done.)
I've always thought that mike's idea would work the best. Just have 1 or 2 spots in the A-League for the state sides to compete for each year. That way there's no possibility of an A-League team getting relegated (even in 5 or so years time it would be hard to see an A-League team surviving relegation). Hopefully something like this could pass the AFC's standards for pro/rel.
The problem with the regional system in big countries is that the cost of running a "local" club and "nationwide" club differ by an order of magnitude. Compare travel expenses for the state league -- mostly bus rides, and for A-League -- mostly long-distance flights. It is extremly hard to jump between such tiers. You have to build a club that is already sustainable enough, which is next to impossible without A-League money flows. And it makes no sense, because if you can do it, why not just bid for an A-League license and jump straight into the pool? The whole pyramid will work if it's gradual. Not straight state-to-national leaps, but small steps: a nationwide tier(s) ← a region of two or three states ← a state or territory ← a subregion ← a town or city district ← a pub league. Such a system will allow the grassroot clubs to grow up steadily, geting used to rising expenses and more congested schedules step by step. But it needs those grassroots in the first place; and a lot of them. Australia clearly has the potential, but it's a thousand miles road. Sporting cultures don't change in the blink of an eye -- it must be a generation shift, maybe even two.
Seeing as you are not relegating aleague sides, how do you work out who gets relegated from the aleague each year from the promoted state sides? Maybe just relegate the lowest finishing 1 out of the promoted 2 and promote the best state side to take their place for the next season? What if the two state sides finished first and second?
Thats the only issue. FFA funding could help solve that, but FFA funding is looking a bit shaky right now... I was thinking the state sides would take up two 'invitational' spots which would be re-allocated each year. Say the best two state sides would play off with the two current 'invitational' sides each year to decide who's in the a-league. If one of the state sides came first or second, then there's probably a case that they should become A-League clubs. It's just an idea, there's issues (as artml pointed out) but it seems a lot easier to set up this "pro/rel" instead of full blown pro/rel if the AFC ends up insisting on it.
Yeah nah. But anyway there is no need to go down AFL v NRL. The best way for pro/rel in my opinion, is to allocate each state and New Zealand a certain number of teams. Every season the wooden spooners play the state champions of their state league and the the winner of the game is in the A-League next year.
Well they would need a big enough TV deal and a share agreement to help pay for the travel expenses. On average how much would it cost for say 15 away games, with airline tickets and hotel accommodation, other transportation for say 30-40 persons? say average over the season for Perth and Wellington (always have to fly) Would 1,000 A$ per person be too low of a number? 1,000 X 40 (players and coaches, etc) = 40,000 per trip. 40,000X 15 away games = 600,000 So if the A-league tops at 16 teams 600K X 16 teams = 9,600,000 Million for a TV contract to subsidize travel. If it cost 2K per person then we are talking 20 million just to cover travel.
$1000 would be quite high. They'd have to have some sort of arrangement- similar to the AFL/NRL rather than paying commerical rates.
So a TV deal worth 450-500K per team per year would be good enough to subsidize all team travel? That is 5 million per year; does the A-league have any TV deals other than Fox sports?