Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia There is little to no transperancie and independance between the different levels of football in Australia (ie btwn A-League and FFA) This has been necessary at the beginning, but eventually the A-League must operate independantly from the FFA - ie uncle Frank can't control everything.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Items on the "governanance and soundness" are listed as follows; Targets in italics a.) Government's inappropriate intervention to the league management. -none b.) Fixed Game -none c.) The league governing body is a legal entity governed by it's football association -yes d.) The league governing body has a management structure which controls competition marketing, media and finance -yes e.) i.) Club representives ii.) representatives for the football association and iii.) representatives from the league's top management are members of the highest decision making body (exective committee) of the league. -yes f.) The position of the CEO must be full-time. -yes g.) The league has an audited profit and loss Statement and balance sheet. -yes h.) The league has an auditor. -yes Saudi Arabia 50/50 all As UAE 47.5/50 has a B on c.) but everything else an A Iran 47.9/50 all As Indonesia 41.7/50 all As except for B on c.) Australia has As on a.) and b.) but all Bs on c.) to h.) A: meet criteria B: ensured to meet criteria by 1st October 2008 C: not ensured to meet criteria by 1st October 2008 D: do not meet criteria
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Yeah, we do pretty well considering our short lived context and where we've come from, previous that. Alot of the issues of governance discussed, like Gold suggested, are just transitional issues for us. Look at the A-League, thanks to its growth, the club ownership problem is vastly improved from the situation Year 2. Glory is in independent hands now, Central Coast is vastly improved. Ok, the Lowy's still have a stake in Sydney FC, which some can see as a kind of conflict of interest, given Frank Lowy heads the FFA, who still runs the league at the moment. So we still have some general improvement needed. Things like club ownership contribute to the business side of things. If our clubs and league are well financed AND fiscally sound (I guess is the term), with each independently backed/run, then that should contribute alot to the confidence in and of our league. It should mean we have more corporate interests involved in the game and as a flow on of current success, we have increased revenue, from Sponsorship, TV Deals, Advertising etc.. That can be a kind of snowball, though not that it doesn't involve hard work. We still see our league struggle in some of these departments, but we also see our league creeping ever upwards in improvement in many of these areas. In some areas, the improvement has been light speed and the likely bonanza we can expect from the next TV Deal, should be a real fillip for the league and it's clubs. But yeah, in the short to medium term, I'm sure an independent body will be set up to run the league, so the FFA can get on to other business. That actually would be a more professional set up and one the FFA being as professional as they are, would be striving for. All the management, auditing issues and that, will naturally fall into place after that. The FFA as we know, have many more important issues to be dealing with Nationally and Internationally, rather than pissing about baby sitting A-League clubs etc... So you'd expect, as we are starting to see, the independence of the clubs and A-League starting to assert/formalise, itself. With the separate entity thing, I think of Basketball in Australia. There is Basketball Australia I think and then the NBL, which actually has it's own CEO and runs itself I think. I can't think of anything else, but that is one example we have here, I think.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Well you guys have plenty to improve. In NZ, we are worse off. Looking at the criteria used. If we were in AFC, I would have no doubt believe we have a mixture of ABCDs. Looking likely to have an overall rating of C and even possibility D. That would place us like about 17th place. That would mean we would our champion team in the playoffs and the runner-up in the AFC Cup. So 7th is a very healthy assessment considering that you just only been an AFC country for 1 year and 5 months.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia http://www.foxsports.com.au/story/0,8659,23784539-5000940,00.html A-League plans promotion system By Liam FitzGibbon May 30, 2008 FOOTBALL Federation Australia chief executive Ben Buckley says plans for the implementation of a promotion and relegation system for the A-League will be in place by October. FFA chairman Frank Lowy last week revealed the FFA were looking to introduce the system to strengthen Australia's ranking in Asia and enhance prospects of hosting a World Cup. With the Asian Football Confederation and FIFA putting pressure on the league to introduce a multi-tier system, Buckley confirmed FFA had informed the AFC it would have plans in place within the next five months. "We said to the AFC we would get back to them by October this year as to what our plan is via promotion-relegation,'' Buckley said. "They understand our situation and they've accepted that we will have a plan in place by October this year and that will be for an implementation for a promotion-relegation system, not at this point in time but for some years to come. ''It's something that will be assessed over time. After we've got through the next phase of expansion then we'll be looking to a promotion and relegation system.'' Promotion and relegation was a hot topic at Friday's FIFA Congress in Sydney, where world football's governing body approved changes to laws ensuring that teams could only be promoted and relegated on the basis of their sporting achievements, not monetary issues. FIFA president Sepp Blatter said these laws would apply to all new leagues, including a second-tier league in Australia when it is created. "The decision we made today does not affect the existing leagues but it will be a strong indication to these leagues to adapt to this principal,'' Blatter said. "And here in Australia, when I spoke with the leaders of football, they said they will introduce a second league.'' AAP
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia just a point, Charleston SC metro area is about 600,000 but that includes about 90 miles of coast and 50 miles inland. teh actual population that are in the immediate area would be closer to 450,000 or so. Still, even including the outlaying areas, Charleston is one of teh smallest markets in the US Professional soccer tree. and it is one of the highest attended clubs based on population. Raleigh, Cary, Durham is probally closer to 1.7 or 1.8 million mikey
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia It's October and... A-League ‘will meet criteria’ according to Rob Abernethy. Speaking to the-afc.com on the sidelines of the AFC General Managers’ Seminar, Rob Abernethy said the A-League would go flat out to make the grade for the continental showcase which will sport a new look in 2009. “We are very confident that we can meet it (the criteria),” Abernethy said. “We have engaged in several meetings with officials of the AFC Pro-League Committee and we will satisfy the criteria.”
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Okay, if we could magically make the AFL and NRL disappear, along with the Air New Zealand Cup, here would be the ideal solution. (Along with the huge population boom that is coming) 1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adelaide United 2.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adelaide 2 3.[FONT="] [/FONT]Auckland 4.[FONT="] [/FONT]Ballart/Bendigo 5.[FONT="] [/FONT]Brisbane Roar 6.[FONT="] [/FONT]Brisbane 2 7.[FONT="] [/FONT]Cairns 8.[FONT="] [/FONT]Canberra 9.[FONT="] [/FONT]Central Coast Mariners 10.[FONT="] [/FONT]Christchurch 11.[FONT="] [/FONT]Darwin 12.[FONT="] [/FONT]Dunedin 13.[FONT="] [/FONT]Geelong 14.[FONT="] [/FONT]Gold Coast United 15.[FONT="] [/FONT]Hawke’s Bay 16.[FONT="] [/FONT]Hobart 17.[FONT="] [/FONT]Launceston 18.[FONT="] [/FONT]Mackay 19.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne City 20.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne Victory 21.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne 3 22.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne 4 23.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne 5 24.[FONT="] [/FONT]Newcastle Jets 25.[FONT="] [/FONT]North Coast (based in Coffs Harbour) 26.[FONT="] [/FONT]Palmerston North 27.[FONT="] [/FONT]Perth Glory 28.[FONT="] [/FONT]Perth 2 29.[FONT="] [/FONT]Rockhampton 30.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sunshine Coast 31.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney FC 32.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney 2 33.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney 3 34.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney 4 35.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney 5 36.[FONT="] [/FONT]Townsville 37.[FONT="] [/FONT]Waikato 38.[FONT="] [/FONT]Waitakere City 39.[FONT="] [/FONT]Wellington Phoenix 40.[FONT="] [/FONT]Wollongong Obviously, this is crazy, and would require Australia to become one of the top 10 countries in the world, and NZ somewhere in the top 25, but there you are. This would be split into two leagues of 20, or possibly a premier league of 16, and then two leagues below of 12
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia ^AFC have also said no more NZ after 2011 - although the Pheonix are fighting it. 8-10 NZ teams would be enough for their own comp anyway. 1.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adelaide United 2.[FONT="] [/FONT]Adelaide 2 3.[FONT="] [/FONT]Ballart/Bendigo 4.[FONT="] [/FONT]Brisbane Roar 5.[FONT="] [/FONT]Brisbane 2 6.[FONT="] [/FONT]Canberra 7.[FONT="] [/FONT]Central Coast Mariners 8.[FONT="] [/FONT]Coffs Harbour (North Coast NSW) 9.[FONT="] [/FONT]Darwin 10.[FONT="] [/FONT]Geelong 11.[FONT="] [/FONT]Gold Coast United 12.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne City 13.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne Victory 14.[FONT="] [/FONT]Melbourne 3 15.[FONT="] [/FONT]Newcastle Jets 16.[FONT="] [/FONT]Perth Glory 17.[FONT="] [/FONT]Perth 2 18.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sunshine Coast 19.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney FC 20.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney West 21.[FONT="] [/FONT]Sydney 3 22.[FONT="] [/FONT]Tasmania 23.[FONT="] [/FONT]Townsville (Nth QLD) 24.[FONT="] [/FONT]Wollongong 14 team top flight and 10 team 2nd div (less teams = less costs). Other possibilities would be Riverina (Albury/ Wagga/ Griffith) and Central Qld (Makay/ Rocky/ Bundaberg/ Hervey Bay) to make it 16 and 10 or 14 and 12.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Check out the last page of the "A-League in the media thread"- I think I posted some articles in there! EDIT: post 77 is definately one- and I think there are a few more sprinkled throughout!
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia How does fielding 40 pro teams equate to being one of the top10 countries in the world ?? Besides which, 40 is way overkill. As Gold points out, 24 is a good number to start with.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Thank You And the reason that it would require australia to become so good is that the only way they'll ever support 40 teams is if they were to go so football mad they forgot everything else. If that happens they'll destroy everyone else, because that is what Australia does. It beats everybody else at almost everything
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia they could do this. when the top 4 teams make the finals in the aleague they play finals as you know. but the bottom four dont play anything at all. so i think that they could play a finals thing as well to se who get the wooden spoon. i think it can be done that way as well.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia The only way that Promotion/Relegation will work in Australia is if the First Division (not the A-League), is not treated as a camping ground for sub-standard teams, but instead becomes an excellent league in its own right, with a strong fan base not too unlike the A-League teams. I believe that for beginners sake, you need a lower division with only 8-10 teams to begin with. That will mean 10 in the A-League and 10 in the First Division. For the first 2 years there shouldn't be any promotion or relegation between the two, so teams can get themselves set up financially and on the field...it will also give them time to draw in the fans who want to see some genuinely good football. Also, I believe that the First Division matches ought to be on different schedules to the A-League encounters. If the FFA is going to adopt mid-week matches for the A-League as a standard, then the First Division ought to take the weekend spots. People near centres with two football teams can then support both an A-League team and their local First Division club. Also, if First Division teams would be based within cities near A-League clubs, why not introduce the 'Double-header' notion? A mid-week game featuring a First Division club starting at 5pm and the A-League match at 7:00pm or 7:30pm would bring in a lot more folks, and keep them around for longer too. Although this seems to be a great idea, I don't think it would work. You can imagine the purists like me, who get antsy about the whole finals ordeal...now imagine how we, and the relegated teams would feel, if their team was sent down a division for not even coming in last ?
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia I'm dragging this thread out of the dusty old page 2. Now I've been thinking, and even if football becomes popular enough in Australia to support a second division, there are still some massive hurtles that have to be overcome. I am of the opinion that the only way that it could ever conceivably work is to combine the closed-shop and pro/rel systems, ie you can't get relegated out of the 2nd Division. But another big problem is the lack of parity. I don't think Australia could ever accept a league where the same few clubs dominate year after year. On the other hand, Pro/rel and a salary cap means essentially random movement between divisions, with clubs such as Melbourne Victory as likely to go down as Alice Springs. This led me to a solution that I think is workable: the luxury tax. This is the system used by major league baseball here in the states. The basic idea is that the league sets a "cap" at the beginning of the season on how much clubs can spend. If clubs go over this amount, then they have to pay a certain additional amount to the League, which then distributes it equally to all the clubs that have not broken the cap. Therefore, for every dollar over the cap a team spends, they are also increasing the ability of their competitors to buy. This allows for greater competition, instead of a Big 4, but also is enough to prevent big clubs from being in serious danger of relegation, unless their management team is terrible (Newcastle United)
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia ^^ Thats a great idea. It would mean teams that have been financially successful get some reward for their success - yet still keep the league realatively even. ATM some teams - like the Victory - are (in a way) a victim of their own success. Now I understand the reasoning and necessity of the cap but if you could implement a system like Sounders suggests it offers the best of both worlds. That said i'd like to see the financially successful clubs put more of their money into youth teams which don't come under the cap (??) something i've been dissapointed with as a Victory supporter. I'd like to see us use it more as a vehicle for the first team like Sydney has done so well.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Thank you. I think it would be quite easy to require clubs to put a certain amount of their money into the youth team.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Moving ahead and thinking of the future are two intertwined ideals. What better way to generate stability in both than to invest into the youth?
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia I just figured it out-Australia has pro/rel already The bottom placed club must play the winner of the ANZ Virtual League for a spot in next seasons A-League. Occasionally, with financial backing, the FFA will promote members of the Virtual League into the A-League without relegating anyone.
Re: AFC wants pro/rel in Australia Yes, although I believe the J. League plans to introduce a professional third tier.
Alright, the only Pro/Rel thread I see floating around is this old one here, but it seems to have been left in the dark lately. This thread is dedicated purely to the discussion of Promotion and Relegation in Australia and all encompassing debate about it, from how the system would work, to the finance behind it, the obvious and not so obvious problems of the idea and implementation. To begin I'd like to map out some of the more obvious problems the Australian market has with introducing ProRel into the A-League: Negatives of Promotion and Relegation Population This is perhaps the biggest problem that the FFA faces in trying to create a successful ProRel system in Australia. Our Great Southern Land is simply two strips of very habitable coastline with a great expanse of nothingness in between, ergo unlike other countries around the world our population density is very low for such a sizeable slab of land. If the FFA could concentrate on population centres rather than cities themselves that would be far more successful and give far more variety than just adding one or two more capital city themed teams to either league. However this can also work in favour of the FFA (as I will impart later on). Popularity Another problem that the FFA, and football in general, has is the popularity of the sport in Australia. Of course we're constantly contending the fact that we are a sleeping giant who is slowly being roused out of its slumber, however a few things clearly will not change. The simple fact is that even if football becomes the number one code in Australia, there will still be three other codes vying for the same media coverage, TV rights and viewer percentage we have. That poses the question, will football ever be popular enough that the Australian public will undoubtedly and unequivocally support a second tier league? Or maybe a more pertinent question would be regarding... Tradition ...the idea of Promotion and Relegation itself. There has never really been a professional league of any code or sport in Australia that has used ProRel. The FFA will have to market the idea well to the Australian public or risk losing all chance of its acceptance by a very Americanised sporting society that is used to seeing the same teams in the same competition without any threat to the status quo. If things happen to go awry then a Relegation could very well be the death knell for a specific club and its supporter base (more importantly, its financial backing as well). Next I will try to contend with the positives that come from having a ProRel system in Australia.
Not all discussion about Promotion and Relegation is negative. In fact there are a few, often overlooked positives about what ProRel can bring to the A-League and the FFA overall. Positives of Promotion and Relegation Intrigue The psychological factors of a ProRel system cannot be ignored. Towards the end of each season two separate, yet equally entertaining battles will be taking place, captivating our intrigue and raising the profile of the local game. On one hand we have the Tall Poppy. The 2nd division leader, fighting like an Alpha male lion in a herd of usurpers, trying to stay alive at the top of the heap. Every victory brings them a step closer, every draw is a missed opportunity and every loss can be disastrous. There will be many people hoping to see a loss. Australians are known for wanting to always cut the Tall Poppy down and what better plant to prune than the biggest fish in the small pond? And likewise we have the Underdogs. The last two or three teams in the A-League itself, rallying their own supporters week after week to get behind the team and push for a shift in morale and results. Yes, us Australians love cutting down the Tall Poppy but we also love to see the Underdog come out and scrape together a win, scrap out a good result...not just roll over and play dead. The FFA would do well to take advantage of what are perhaps an Australian's two most constant character traits and use Promotion and Relegation to their advantage. Change It's as good as a holiday. What makes ProRel so foreign (no pun intended) to Australia's sporting landscape could also be a major factor in separating it from the other codes and giving it a unique identity that cannot be matched. Each season you will see a new face that's battled its way into the top tier of Australian football. You will see a team that's looking to prove itself in every match, to stay alive, to stay away from being relegated to make a good show of their new season. Constant change keeps the league fresh and re-energises old clubs to do new things and try other ways to find success. The FFA can also finally turn to diehard supporters of "old soccer" and say that they have a purely European concept implemented into "new football", and perhaps win over some old supporters by doing so. Profile A 2nd division would highly raise the profile of football in Australia. At the moment the majority of A-League clubs are located in Australia's state capital cities. However a 2nd division would insure that most teams incorporated into that division would come strictly from more outer, rural areas than close to suburbia. This assists the game two-fold. First comes the obvious boost of football's popularity at a "grass roots" level. An AFL supporter in Darwin might be more inclined to start watching and following football (even if his or her support isn't as die-hard as it is towards the AFL), knowing that a Darwinian team plays in a prestigious national competition week in and week out instead of following, say Brisbane, who might come to Darwin once or twice a year during their preseason for a spectator match. Second this gives players more time to hone their skills before being picked up by A-League clubs (and one would eventually hope European or other Asian clubs). The FFA would in effect be adding another tier of learning to a very stout pyramid. At the moment we have a special crop of footballers that are a little too old for the National Youth League (so they cannot play there altogether), a little too good for State League competition (they do not progress well if they stay at that level) yet are not quite consistent enough to be featured in an A-League squad week in and week out (not getting enough game time, period).