I asked this on the Chivas USA board a week and a half ago. I didn't ask it here because I wanted to get the fans perspective, and I was concerned that I'd get something of a knee-jerk reaction here on this board. But the response on the Chivas board wasn't particularly insightful, and - well - something happened recently that got me thinking about this question again. So I'm going to ask it here. As you may know, Chivas USA were humiliated in a scrimmage against an all MLS USMNT in a scrimmage yesterday. The score was 7 to nothing. Let me say a few things about that: First, it's one game. I know. But it brought the question to mind and so it's an occasion to ask it. I'm not saying it's evidence that Chivas sucks, just that it prompts you to wonder what's going on with that team. Second, it's not that they lost to the all MLS MNT, but that they lost so badly that I found startling. There have been a lot of MNT scrimmages against MLS sides over the years. I don't ever recall a blowout like this one. Third, sure the MLS guys on the MNT were playing hard for Bruce in hopes of making the team, but the guys on Chivas USA were playing hard for Rongen too in hopes of making the team, and in hopes of becoming a starter. What's more, some of those Chivas USA guys were playing hard to get noticed by Bruce. In short, it was expected that Chivas would lose, but it wasn't expected that they'd lose so badly. That's what got me started thinking about this question again. So, the question ... expanded a bit from the previous incarnation. On the one hand, CD Chivas USA makes sense to me. I've lived off and on in LA for a number of years now, I see the potential market, and maybe it really is the way for MLS to tap into a soccer savvy market that thus far hasn't fully found a home within the league. I know the number of Chivas jerseys I see around LA, and I've even noticed a few Chivas billboards around town. Chivas is a huge brand in LA already, and Guadalajara is probably the second most popular sports team there behind the Lakers. So it all makes a lot sense to me that maybe the Chivas brand really is the way into that market. On the other hand, I don't think that market is stupid. I think they know good soccer, and I think they have expectations about what the Chivas brand stands for. Guadalajara's Chivas is a very good team. It's a storied team with traditions and stature. It has, in short, a reputation that it must live up to. The fans know that, and I bet the fans expect everything associated with that Chivas brand name to live up to that reputation. What's going to happen if CD Chivas USA sucks. Will this soccer savvy market show up for a second rate team? Will they show up to see a Chivas team that doesn't live up to the brand's reputation, that doesn't conform to their expectations about the stature of the Chivas name? What if the team starts off badly? What if their first season is disastrous? If the club struggles are people going to buy tickets? Will the Chivas "brand" really carry the team if they're not winners? Or will the expectations surrounding the Chivas brand actually condemn the team if it can't live up to those expectations? I don't know. But my hunch is that the success of this team is very much predicated upon its success on the field. Folks will give the team a chance, but if they don't deliver a satisfactory product that lives up to the Chivas brand name I doubt those folks will come back.
I think a lot of it rests with Vergara. Obviously if the product put out is crap, then it's going to make things difficult. As long as the first season is not a total flop and Vergara backs the team publicly ("we're working on improving things, first year, yada yada yada"), I think things will be ok for them. If in five years they haven't seriously challenged for at least one trophy, then it could get interesting.
for the record... fire beat kc in a league game on the fourth of july 6-1 or 7-1 3 years ago or so it happens
I was grilling steaks on the deck in my backyard and watching the game through the sliding glass door. Let's just say I focused on the game a bit too much (how could I not), and the steaks were closer to well done than medium. But I'll be damned if they weren't some of the best steaks I've had to date.
Thanks for bringing up such a wonderful memory. Only time I've seen the fire in person. Wanted to see Stoichkov (not score 2 goals, however.) My parents, who had come up from Texas, were with me at the game. The most pathetic showing I've ever seen. Next, why don't you give me a paper cut and pour lemon juice in it?
my post from the Chivas thread on this subject: I thought I'd rescue it from the crap that was that thread: " I think curiosity seekers alone will carry Chivas USAs attendance this year. Keep in mind the Galaxy in 1996 drew crowds of 69k, 45k, and 40k (or somewhere there about for their first season--and given the limited capacity at HDC, that should spread some high attendances deep into the season). Of course, the Galaxy in later seasons would average just a hair above 20k. I think a lot of those early attendances in 96 were inflated mostly from Mexicans giving the league a try, as we well know, for the most part, they have disappeared. I think many of those same Mexicans and perhaps more will give the league a try again in 2005. Some may turn away after a couple games, others will be hooked, but MOST should notice a marked improvement in the league-wide level of play, which in 96, was the killer. Add in the fact that Chivas USA games will have a predominantly Mexican atmosphere (both on the field and in the stands) and receive good catering/attention from the front office, and I think that should/will be a winning formula at the gate for MLS's most coveted ethnic demographic. For those reasons, I believe that even a season of sub-par 2005 results will not kill the team. Sustained sucktitude will though (see: Metros, Revs, late 90s Clash).
yeah... threadjack over... *sigh* anyways... i think they'll be fine... if they blow chunks to begin with, moves will be made to make them better off in the league you adapt and move on
Really good question--this also occurred to me. It makes me think--what makes fanatic supporters of a team follow the team? Part of it might be that the team has a winning tradition, but that's not everything. If anything, times when a team is losing are what distinguishes the hardcore loyalists from the fair-weather fans. Quality of play is another factor, but like winning, if there is a hard core of supporters, they'll stick with the team through the poor times. But this situation is a little different. We aren't talking about Chivas itself, but an ersatz version of it. I can easily imagine this team simply being ignored as a fake version of the team people really love. For example, if Ajax started a team in the US I can't really see myself being too interested. They'd be Ajax-owned and -related, but they wouldn't be Ajax, so why would I care? Other things aside from the quality of play might bring people to games--a sense of community with other Chivas fans, or with Mexican folks in LA generally. If supporters' groups reach a critical mass, they'll likely do a lot of work for the atmosphere at HDC, and that's always a draw. All that said, I kind of share Knave's suspicion that if Chivas USA sucks, the legions of Chivas supporters may well just ignore the team. Why haul your ass all the way to HDC to see a phony version of the team you love get its ass handed to it by MLS teams that you hate? Might as well spend that money on some cerveza and watch the Goats on Telemundo (or Univision, or Galavision, or Telefutura...). Thus despite my distaste for the whole Chivas endeavor (which I continue to believe may be illegal under federal antidiscrimination law), I kind of want them to do well because I think it could be good for MLS as a whole. If they pump up attendance and general interest in the league, that's fine by me. Moreover, having a team that everyone else loves to hate may increase passion/interest on the part of other fans around the league as well. Ironically, I think their ethnic preferences in hiring may be the biggest factor holding back their quality on the field. If you're limited to picking players from a group of only 13% or so of the population, that severely limits your ability to pick the best players (because 87% of the talent pool is automatically excluded). Hope I'm wrong about that, but the 7-0 game makes me wonder...
Could someone give me a brief understanding of how renowned or how high up the skill chart the Chivas USA mexican players are? I think that's going to be a key perception problem for ReaL Chivas fans. Are fans going to be put off or disinterested when they realized that second-rate Real Chivas players can't hack it in this league? Will they demand a higher caliber of player, equivalent to what they know on ReaL Chivas? How will Chivas USA react to that? How will the league as a whole react to that?
I posted a while back that I won't be surprised if, within 3 years, Vergara bails and the franchise is either contracted or rebranded and possibly moved.
Ramirez - over the hill former national team player Zuniga - over the hill former decent league GK Loera - something of a Mexican "a-leaguer", played for Chivas a couple years ago but now in his prime years is playing 2nd division as a reserve player Romo - mexican u20 player Sandoval - mexican u23 players Cuadros, Begines/Bejines, & Mendoza - young players in the Chivas system, haven't gotten past 2nd division yet. May be promising but not on the youth national teams as far as I know Sequeira is a fringe Costa Rican national team player right now as far as I can tell. Maybe his recent injuries have kept him from international competition. Has some experience playing in Europe.
wasn't it also just a 45 minute scrimmage? To put up 7 goals in 45 minutes is pretty incredible. Does anyone know what season ticket sales are for CHivas? That might give us a better understanding of the following and how well they will fare this season. But from every Chivas fan that randomly posts somewhere they clearly expect to be one of the dominant teams in the league this year.....I think once they realize that their rag tag group of MLS cast offs and Mexican reserve players and reitrees can't compete in MLS lots of fans will bail.
Thanks for that. So at least in tearms of the ReaL Chivas type players this is straight Minor League Chivas. The question then becomes much like in minor leauge baseball one will go hoping to get a glimpse at maybe some guys who used to be on the big league club or some up and comers but if the team wins that's secondary, will that be the case with Chivas USA? Or are their fans expecting this group of has beens and never will bes to go out and win the whole damn thing? Seems like the latter to me.
It happens, sure. But there have been 500 league games since then, and I imagine that it was the worst. Last year, there was one 5 goal victory and three 4 goal victories, out of 150 games. Chivas has played, what, five games, mostly against inferior competition? Losing 7-0 does not bode well for the club's prospects.
1. There have been blowouts in the league before. Just last season, DCU was hammered by the Burn when DCU was forced to field a "C" side and then DCU hammered the Metro. But that wasn't Knave's question. I think the only time the USMNT has won by that many goals in a scrimmage, it was against an A-league team. To lose by that amount is astonishing--especially since you figure the Mexican players would have some pride on the field. This is a USMNT that has been assembled to play against the Tricolores--wouldn't the CD-Chivas Mexicans have some brio they'd bring to this match? 2. I'm with Noah on this. I think if Vergara doesn't see the Chivas followers in the US emerge within 2 years, he'll write off the investment as a bad idea. I don't think Vergara is so much interested in MLS as he is interested in expanding the Chivas "brand". 3. If that have a bad season this year, I think he (Vergara) will pressure MLS to allow him to bring in more Chivas front-line talent. That may mean playing with the salary cap, getting loose with definitions of what we mean by SI's, getting players to come to CD Chivas on free transfers (that wouldn't be allowed to other clubs, etc.). FWIW, my understanding is that Zuniga and Loera were both hurt this match, one of them with a broken collarbone. So this just isn't a bad day at the office for CD Chivas. Any other preseason loss they could have written off. But to lose some of their front-line talent AND to lose so badly to the gringos, that has to hurt in their effort to draw Mexicans living in the US.
They should really consider contracting the team right now and only going with 11 teams in a single table. Actually come to think of it...perhaps Chivas USA should play in the A-League this year and if they are good enough to win it, we can promote them next season.
A long term inferior Chivas USA team is bad for MLS. One of the things that hurt MLS's prestige in the early years was that the Metrostars were so bad -- biggest attendance and media market in the country, blowing chunks on the field. The Galaxy's resurgence and Home Depot field resoundingly shored up one of the two major media markets, but now Chivas is coming in to serve as the anchor for LA, and also as an identity for the league. It's very clear that KC, Dallas, Colorado, and sadly San Jose can never serve as the cutting edge marketers of the league. There's got to be a high profile team. Think Major League Baseball if the Brewers had the winning tradition instead of the Yankees. So, hopefully, Chivas will prove itself to be one of the top teams in the league year in and year out. . . . and I can give them the proper hate they will then deserve.
This Chivas experiment is pretty interesting on the face of it and I wonder just what will result over 32 games this year. MLS is far different than the MFL and it might take some adjusting for the very physical, uptempo, tight marking American style of play that has developed in the League over the years. I have noticed that the Mexican stars that MLS has tried out in the past had a hard time initially adjusting to the League and I expect the same with Chivas USA. If they have a competitive team from the get go, I'd be very surprised.
If CD Chivas USA sucks this year? - Rongen is fired, and replaced with a coach that understands the "Latin-Style of Play". - Their average attendance will still hover in the 15K realm I don't see Vergara just walking away from this. I can't imagine him saying "Oh this is too hard" or "Oh, these MLS players are just too tough for us". He's proving a point with this team. I don't see him giving up on that point for a while. If CD Chivas sucks for the next three years? They get sold to America and moved to Houston.
I can't see him just up and going either. He's made a relatively extensive and expensive investment in this. Up to what $30million? I think both of your scenerios are pertty on point. As long as Chivas USA isn't a comedy of errors they should be basically fine at least I think. The bottom line in answering the question that started this thread is that we don't know.
Interesting question you pose, Knave. And you've even answered your own question, too. CD Chivas USA. What if they suck? First, the obvious: Chivas USA will draw much of their fan base from the Latino population in LA. Also, on the road, Chivas Mexico fans will show up to show their support. I think many of these are going to be Chivas Mexico fans. Out of loyalty to their club and colors, their fans will stick with them this season: good, bad, or ugly. However, if the Chivas USA product continues to be sub-standard in season 2 and beyond, what is to prevent their fans from going back to their first club, Chivas Mexico? In my opinion, nothing. The fans Chivas USA are targeting, according to most articles and reports I've read or seen on TV, are the Latino's who are not MLS fans in the first place. Therefore, it stands to reason if they have a first choice team in Mexico and their local choice is not faring well in the 'Americano' league, they'll simply turn the channel back to that from which they came. So, as you stated, the pressure is on Chivas ownership to put a product on the field for a fan base that is quite discriminating and demanding, something the average U.S. fan, in my opinion, is not. Yet. (could get killed for this one) If Chivas USA do well, they will be doing it with a style of play that is foreign to the average US soccer fan. So we'll be learning something new. If Chivas USA do poorly, they will be crucified in the press, something that is foreign to the average US soccer fan. So we'll be learning something new. Another step in the evolution of the U.S. game? I think so.