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Discussion in 'Germany' started by mntiburon, Aug 1, 2010.
That's a nice article. And convincing too, by and large.
The #4 reason mentioned is the regulation that says no single entity can own more than 49% stake in a club. The remainder 51% is owned by the Verein. So de jure, no Abrahmovic or Sheikh can take over a BuLi club. So how does this practice make the BuLi better than the EPL, where no such law is present. That point isn't very clear??
One need look no further than the current Glazer debacle at Man United
The supporters have the piece of mind knowing the majority belongs to them, and they're not at the whim of someone who doesn't necessarily have the best interest of the club in mind. You can't put a price tag on that.
Sigh... why do people who clearly don't speak a language at all always insist in using as many misspelled random words in that language as possible? Ok, admitted, many of those misspelled words are names, but still. And newsflash: Germany ain't a Spanish speaking country. Nobody has ever called the second division here "Zweite". EVER.
Other than that - and I'm pretty sure I have seen this article linked here before - just fanboyish gloryfication. Yeah, the atmosphere in Wolfsburg is better than in most English stadia, German ultras totally have a political message (they are, like, so deep, dude!), and fans have a say in how clubs are run (suuuuuure).
Also has some critical reasearch failure (the "license" section is laughable... honestly, wtf? The last team that got denied a license in Germany was 1860 in 1982. I repeat... wtf?????? He clearly doesn't mean "only in the first division", as 1860 didn't play in the first division then. I totally dreamed the following, I guess:
RW Essen 1991
BW Berlin 1992
RW Essen 1994
Dynamo Dresden 1995
Hessen Kassel 1998
FC Homburg 1999
FC Augsburg 2000
TeBe Berlin 2000
FC Gütersloh 2000
Sachsen Leipzig 2001
SSV Ulm 2001
VfL Halle 2001
FC Magdeburg 2002
VfR Mannheim 2002
Dynamo Berlin 2002
Atlas Delmenhorst 2002
KFC Uerdingen 2003
SC Norderstedt 2003
VfB Leipzig 2004
SC Göttingen 2004
Fortuna Köln 2005
SpVgg Bayreuth 2006
Yurdumspor Köln 2006
Kickers Emden 2009
Altona 93 2009
Sachsen Leipzig 2009
TeBe Berlin 2010
RW Essen 2010
And the usual mistakes concerning club ownership, but whatever.
Don't throw the baby with the bath water, sheesh. (das Kind mit dem Bade ausschütten) I think he was implying the 1st division license, but mistakenly thought 1860 Munchen was there in 1982.
The financial arguments listed are even more relevant today, as the Bundesliga is now the most profitable league in the world.
CNN: June 10, 2010
He clearly compares the German numbers to the English - and his English numbers include lower divisions too. And Dynamo Dresden was denied a license in 1995 while playing in the first division, so it would be wrong either way.
Admittedly I have not checked every Bundesliga license since 1982. Have there been any other 1st division clubs denied license besides DD? How many EPL clubs have been denied a license since 1982?
In Germany this was the only case of a club being denied a license why playing in the first division. In England the number is zero.
However, the second division is Bundesliga too. And I admit, I haven't checked - but my gut feeling is Germany "wins" this quite comfortbaly with a dozen or so denied licenses since 1982, compared to the English second division.
Do you see fault with the other bullet points as well? I know the supporters don't really have that much say over the clubs in Germany, but it's a hell of a lot better than England. I wouldn't wish the Glazer/Man Utd debacle on anyone. There's a reason the Bundesliga is more profitable even with much smaller revenues.
One thing I forgot to add, though - there are different rules concerning insolvency in the UK and in Germany. In Germany Portsmouth would have been denied a license last season - so in the first division we can consider it equal, I guess.
However - considering the article clearly meant all (pro and semi-pro) divisions: just utterly clueless about the deep, deep shit German lower divisions are in financially at the moment.
Well, the first mistake there was that Leverkusen and Wolfsburg are 100% privately owned (they were grandfathered in). But more importantly - even under the current rules the clubs do not have to OWN 51% percent of their pro soccer section. The pro football sections of Borussia Dortmund and Hoffenheim are also privately owned already (in Dortmund the club holds less than 10% of the shares, Hopp holds over 90% of the shares of Hoffenheim too). What the clubs need is to have 51% of the VOTES within the organization - so the club BVB is only a minority shareholder, but they can veto everyone else who owns shares (in Wolfsburg and Leverkusen the clubs are both owned and controlled by private companies, that's the only difference). As soon as those rules are lifted - Dortmund and Hoffenheim wouldn't even need to sell the clubs anymore.
But even that aside - supporters don't have any formal say in how the club is run. That's only club members (and usually those are only a tiny fraction of the fan base - plus, many club members aren't actually fans). For some clubs the membership numbers are extremely inflated - e.g. Bayern, but 99% of their members will never vote on anything. You actually have to travel there and attend a club meeting to vote.
And what the members can vote on is usually limited - and if you promise them glory they won't vote you down. Especially not if there is a powerful president.
Thanks. I was going to ask you about Portsmouth. Do you think his other points were justifiable? I've only been to one BuLi match and that was BVB back in 1996. Never been to an EPL before.
Some are... (I mean, average attendance and goals per game is pretty objective data) however, it's a look through rose coloured glasses. Basically the reason to write the article was to be able to say "my league can kick your league's ass!"
He idealizes German fans (they are, like, totally awesome, everyone sings ALL THE TIME, and they have a political message too!!!!), while mentioning the good old English cliché hooligans again. Most German "ultras" I have seen were bratty, self-important middle class kids
He's also overrating the parity of the Bundesliga (which isn't as big as it used to be anwyway). A nice touch that Fulham qualified for Europe the season he wrote it (and went on to the final!), despite him stating that they (well, not mention by name, but implied) had no chance at all to do so.
"With this rule, there are not any worries about oil tyrants and human rights abusers taking over clubs for a quick return on investment."
Of course they can totally become shirt sponsors, still.
"It’s the Bundesliga that houses most of the young international talent in the world."
Thoughts on the CNN link I provided about the BuLi being the most profitable in the world?
First thought: the sports business guy they are quoting as no ********ing clue what he is talking about:
(I already posted on the ownership thing here, so I will just refer to that post).
As for the profit thing: English clubs do not need to be profitable. Generally, people do not invest into football to make money (and fans should be glad about that). As long as you have a rich owner, you can spend all the money you want, because it comes from outside of football. Revenue is also still higher in England.
Man United supporters tend to disagree with that
Nah, there the debt comes from the way the club was bought. "The club doesn't need to be profitable" is only true as long as you get the money from somewhere else, of course. If you get investors like the Glazers who aren't in just for fun (like, say, a sheikh buying a random club as a plaything) and actually want to earn money with a football club things get more complicated (but this isn't really the European way and more an American sports thing).
And on a lower scale - most German lower division clubs probably haven't made a profit in decades. It's all about getting outside money (either from sponsors or the city/local government).
If one person (Glazer) has 98% control of the club isn't it natural for him to want a return on investment?
Yeah, but for many people (sheiks, Abramovich) that return is not of a direct monetary nature (ie fame, succes on the sporting level, ...)
I really appreciate how the Bundesliga values club history.
I was just reading up on Red Bull Salzberg and it ticks me off how Red Bull could just roll in there, throw all the team history in the dumpster and rename the team as a product tag line. I hope they get smoked in their UEFA game with Omonia today.
Ever read about the The New Saints of the Wales Premiership? They used to be called Total Network Solutions F.C. - how lame. Then their sponsor gets taken over by British Telecom, who doesn't give a damn about football and so now they have to come up with a new team name. They try to whore the name rights on eBay which fails so they choose "The New Saints" so they can recycle TNS badging already in existence. How long before they change their team name again? Talk about a team that has totally lost their way.
To me as I research teams in the BL, I find that the history is one of the most attractive things. Bundesliga, please keep sponsors on jerseys, not on the deed.
Well, one could think it's somewhat ill-advised in a business where traditionally investors don't get much (monetary) return.
The Bundesliga is better and I think a lot of it has to do with the tactics and player development, then add in more consistent officiating, less expensive tickets, terraces, and better beer.
You had me at less expensive tickets
TNS are getting a bit too much stick there.
Fair enough they could be called on taking the 250k to change the team name originally but the reason they are now called "The New Saints" is to incorporate that lost feeling of localisation and history as the full name is The New Saints of Ostwery Town and Llanasantffraid Football Club. The latter of course (Llan) being the original name of the club before TNS were involved.
As for the original article there may be some inconsistencies but as a Bundesliga fan from England who also follows, well pretty much every other league in some fashion, I can say without bias that the way I would want my club to be run would be like a German or Spanish Club with the German model being more realistic. I can also say that consistently the atmosphere at every level of the Bundesliga is the best I know of and finally I can say that the competitive nature of the league also makes it the most intruiging. Add in the friendly nature of the fans in general and how welcoming clubs are to foreign fans like myself (thank you BAYER LEVERKUSEN) and I have no problems saying that for me based on all the above it is the best league in the world.