32 teams to an All-time Word Cup Finals

Discussion in 'Soccer History' started by Excape Goat, Nov 16, 2009.

  1. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    That's correct.

    It's tough to leave out Zidane or Platini but the best system would probably be :

    Kopa -- Zidane/Platini -- Henry

    ----------Fontaine-----------


    Another option would be to use Platini as a second striker :

    ---Kopa--------------Zidane---

    -------Platini---------------

    ----------------Fontaine----
     
  2. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    I see what you are both saying but for me, Henry shouldn't be used from the left but only in a 4-4-2 with freedom to drift wide of course. In a 4-4-2 or 4-2-3-1 I would choose Pires or if you prefer Piantoni to play from the left side. Possibly in a 4-2-3-1 it could be Zidane but I might prefer him as one of the 2 midfielders with Platini in the hole. I would be prepared to start with or turn to when necessary a 4-4-2 with Platini and Zidane in midfield though. Tigana and Vieira could be used if necessary instead of a forward or winger ie put them into midfield and advance Platini or push Zidane into a wider starting position. I wouldn't go with the Italian system from 1970 where they rotated Rivera and Mazzola because I believe a) Zidane and Platini are more world-class than they were, and b) they are both excellent central midfield playmakers - they don't have to have free roles behind the strikers to excel. A 4-2-3-1 or 4-1-3-2 might be better for Kopa especially if Fontaine was up front because he might be too isolated to play his best through-balls consistently from wide right in a 4-4-2. Tigana would be an option for right wing too and even Cantona if he was given free rein and not expected to be a traditional wide midfielder. Pires can be a right winger of course too. So I think France have plenty of flexibility in their system and would be sure to have plenty of fluidity of movement in any case. That would be their best chance - to play fluent football from start to finish, although I don't think their defence should be underestimated. If they came up against Germany I would use Desailly to keep a close eye on Muller i.e get as tight as possible to block any snapshots but make sure you don't give a penalty away. But in summary, I don't think they could win the Cup without both Zidane and Platini playing.
     
  3. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Following up from my last post:
    I'm not saying that I wouldn't have chosen both Rivera and Sandro Mazzola for Italy during the 1970 World Cup.
    A formation I didn't mention for France would be loosely a 4-3-1-2 working like the Magic Square with Platini in advance of 3 midfielders, one of which would be Zidane. Even a 4-3-2-1 Christmas Tree bearing in mind the attacking midfield/playmaker forward players available to France.
     
  4. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz
    In terms of midfielders, I don't think Germany has to hide behind France historically:

    Fritz Walter
    Wolfgang Overath
    Günter Netzer
    Lothar Matthäus
    Franz Beckenbauer (played 2 WCs as midfielder)
    Bernd Schuster
    Matthias Sammer (played the majority of his career as midfielder)
    Hans Müller
    Helmut Haller
    Pierre Littbarski
    Thomas Hässler
    Paul Breitner
    Jürgen Grabowski
    Andi Möller
    Michael Ballack
    Stefan Effenberg
    Rainer Bonhof
    Uli Hoeness
    Horst Szymaniak
    Fritz Szepan
    Felix Magath
    Olaf Thon
     
  5. 621380

    621380 Member

    Feb 21, 2004
    germany
    breitner was a midfielder too ( pysical strong and dangerous)....i think nobody can question the class of him.....

    balon dor rankings 1981...

    rummenigge 1th
    breitner 2th(midfielder )
    schuster 3th(midfielder)

    balon dor rankings 1982

    rummenigge 4th
    littbarskii 7th
    schuster 10th (not playing the worldcup)
    breitner 15th

    giresse 2th
    platini 9th
    tresor 15th

    in wc 1982 germanys situation wasnt optimal..(talentet schuster not playing) and rummenigge injury troubled ,entering the game against france very late...

    france had better creative players in this game ....

    german teams are general pysical very strong and very often have shown the strenght turning games...i dont think france has played to much offensive very late, in fact france has played in big parts with a 3:1 lead a more defending modus.. i remember that parts of the crowd has booed at times for france destructive actions very late in this games too..germany simply has taken over the match and was sucessful putting in the net the goalchances..remember the situation where klaus fischer has scored a regulare header goal but his goal was wrongfully recalled offside in minute 98 of the game(france still had a 3:1 lead) 22 minutes to play..

    however france was a winner too in this game and a final italy -france wasnt far away too...
     
  6. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Germany have always had a lot of depth in the midfield department through its history, arguably even more than France. It's no surprise as on a long term France never had the consistency of Germany.
    However if you only pick the 4-5 absolute elite midfielders of both France and Germany to make the all-time WC team of each then I think France may very well have the edge, even assuming Beckenbauer plays in midfield.
     
  7. JamesBH11

    JamesBH11 Member+

    Sep 17, 2004
    Platini and Zidane are like Riv aldo + Ronaldinho in term of playing style:
    Zidane and R10 were more into Playmaking while Platini and Rivaldo could play very effective in striker or wide left forward. So if the coach can combine well they would be paired up dangerous

    So Fontaine + Platini + Zidane would be at least as effective as the three R's (Ronaldo Rivaldo and Ronaldinho). Kopa would be useful on the right (along with Fontaine, Platini, Zidane) to be somewhat equivalent to Pele + Jair + Tostao + Rivelino of WC70. Henry would hardly make into the best France XI (IMO)
     
  8. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    Far from my criterion, in spite I'm agree Petit and Fernández were better to go forward, I believe saying they're more complete is a fallacy if meaning are better overall. I think Makélélé is far better defensively, one of the best all-time in my opinion, definitively a priority option in my French all-time team.
     
  9. Perú FC

    Perú FC Member+

    Nov 16, 2007
    Lima, Perú
    My French all-time team:

    -------------------------------------------- Julien Darui ----------------------------------------------
    --- Lilian Thuram --- Robert Jonquet --- Marcel Desailly --- Maxime Bossis ---
    ----------------------------- Jean Tigana ------- Claude Makélélé ----------------------------
    ------------------------------------------ Zinedine Zidane -------------------------------------------
    ------------- Raymond Kopa ---------------------------------- Michel Platini -----------------
    ------------------------------------------- Thierry Henry ---------------------------------------------

    Substitutes: Fabien Barthez, Joël Bats; Patrick Battiston, Marius Trésor, Manuel Amoros; Didier Deschamps, Patrick Vieira, Alain Giresse; Éric Cantona, Just Fontaine, Larbi Benbarek, Jean-Pierre Papin.
     
  10. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I don't think Makelele was 'far' better defensively. He might be marginally better but frankly, watching again the late 90's - early 00's games played by France, it seems to me that Petit was as good as Makelele in that aspect of the game. The same applies to Fernandez (not to mention Vieira). Both were greater at the highest level (EC84 + WC86 for Fernandez ; WC98 + EC2000 for Petit). I like Makelele but honestly I think he's sometimes a bit overrated.

    I'd rank the French defensive midfielders in that order :

    1- Tigana (amazing stamina + speed and great technique)
    2- Vieira (huge physical impact + ability to go forward... see WC06 : 2 goals + 2 assists)
    3- Luis Fernandez (great stamina + ability to go forward)
    4- Didier Deschamps (great reading of the game + positioning ; great leadership)
    5- Emmanuel Petit (great physical impact + ability to go forward)
    6- Claude Makelele (great stamina + reading of the game + positioning)
     
  11. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Nice to see Larbi Benbarek, a forgotten great player.
     
  12. Gregoriak

    Gregoriak BigSoccer Supporter

    Feb 27, 2002
    Bolzplatz

    France's (arguably) best ever midfield couldn't get past an inferior German midfield in 1982 and 1986. I wouldn't be too optimistic that France's virtual best ever midfield would get past a virtual German best ever midfield consisting of, say, Beckenbauer, Matthäus, Netzer and Overath (or Littbarski, Schuster).
     
  13. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    In 82 and 86 Platini played while being injured (especially in 86 - he played that WC basically on one leg. Giresse was also injured in that WC). Had he played those WC at his best (EC84 form) the story could have been different.
    From the 82-86 French midfield I would only pick Platini and Tigana in my all-time French team. The addition of Vieira (instead of Fernandez), Kopa (instead of Genghini or Rocheteau) and Zidane (instead of Giresse) would be obviously be a considerable improvement.
     
  14. Bengoechea

    Bengoechea Member

    Jul 28, 2005
    São Paulo
    Nat'l Team:
    Portugal
    I will make 32 teams, but 4 in each posts. (It's not the all-time 11 of each team in my opinion, but a starting 11 that could win a World Cup. ex. I would put Gerson instead of Dunga, or Zico and make a more attacking mentality, with just Falcão as DM, but it would hardly defend, making it impossible to win an All-Time WC)

    Brazil

    -----------------------------Gilmar--------------------------------

    Carlos Alberto----Luis Pereira----Domingos da Guia------Nílton Santos

    -----------------------------Dunga--------------------------------

    ----------------------------------------Falcão--------------------

    -----------Garrincha----------Pelé---------------------------------

    ----------------------Romário---------Ronaldo----------------------


    Portugal

    -----------------------------Bento--------------------------------

    João Pinto----Ricardo Carvalho-----------Germano------------Hilário

    --------------------------Paulo Sousa-----------------------------

    ----------------------------Coluna--------------------------------

    Cristiano Ronaldo-------------Figo----------------------------Futre

    ----------------------------Eusébio-------------------------------


    Argentina

    -----------------------------Fillol----------------------------------

    Zanetti-------------Passarella-------Ruggeri----------------Marzolini

    ----------------------Rattín----------Redondo---------------------

    -----------Sivori-------------Maradona--------------Di Stefano-----

    -----------------------------Batistuta-----------------------------


    France

    -----------------------------Barthez-------------------------------

    Thuram-------------Desailly-----------Trésor-----------------Bossis

    -------------------Deschamps----------Tiganá---------------------

    -----------Zidane-------------Platini---------------Kopá-----------

    -----------------------------Cantoná------------------------------
     
  15. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    The Portugal line-up would be interesting. I wonder if it would be considered to play Figo with an initial starting position of right-wing and play Cristiano Ronaldo as a sort of support striker to Eusebio, probably pulling into wide positions more than a normal number 10. Maybe the way you did it would work as Figo was capable as a playmaker but at Barcelona in particaular he was an excellent winger. Also I'd be interested to know if anyone thinks Coluna would be a good enough all-round footballer to play in defence (even if he never did) because you have Rui Costa available too and as it stands I'd have to choose between him and Futre (possibly then with Rui Costa having the advanced midfield role and Figo and Cristiano Ronaldo lining up wide), or if going attacking and depending again on Coluna's all-round attributes, choose between Coluna and Sousa for a place in midfield.
     
  16. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Judging by responses here and on the poll I created about who might win the All-Time World Cup it seems that France and Holland are seen as slight outsiders (maybe 5th or 6th choices in some cases although some including myself suggest they'd have a better chance than this) in terms of the 7 favourites (including England but not Hungary or Spain). Which country out of Holland and France, who both would admitedly be behind on an actual all-time honours table compared to Brazil, Germany, Italy & Argentina, do people think has the best squad and would have the best chance of causing an upset (certainly if they won the whole tournament it would be seen this way especially if they beat the all-time Brazilians in the final or along the way)? I already posted a possible French squad and for the purposes of this question I'm comparing that to a Dutch selection which doesn't include any pre-70's players although I know there are a few that Dutch people rate highly - perhaps Coen Moulijn would have a chance but I didn't know enough to be sure I should include him. I've based the comparison on both countries staring with a 4-3-1-2 formation but others might obviously be used:

    France-----------------Holland-------------Advantage
    Starting Lineups
    Bats-------------------van der Saar---------Holland

    Amoros------------------Suurbier----------------France
    Blanc---------------------Krol--------------------Holland
    Desailly------------------Rijkaard----------------Holland
    Lizarazu-----------------van Tiggelen----------France

    Tigana------------------Gullit-------------------Holland
    Vieira-------------------Neeskens--------------France (very marginal)
    Zidane------------------Rensenbrink-----------France

    Platini-------------------Cruyff----------------Holland (also quite close)

    Cantona----------------Bergkamp------------Holland (again, very close)
    Henry-------------------van Basten----------Holland

    Subs in squad
    Barthez----------------van Breuklen---------Holland
    Lloris-------------------van Beveran---------Holland

    Jonquet----------------R.Koeman------------Holland
    Tresor-----------------Haan------------------France (as a defender anyway)
    Battiston--------------Winter (utility player)--Holland
    Thuram----------------Israel-----------------France

    Giresse-----------------van Hanegem-------France
    Kopa-------------------Sneijder--------------France
    Pires-------------------Overmars------------France

    Rocheteau-------------Rep------------------Holland
    Fontaine---------------Huntelaar-----------France
    Papin-------------------van Nistelrooy------France

    On standby
    Coupet-----------------Jongbloed-----------France

    Bossis------------------F. De Boer---------France
    Angloma---------------Davids (utility)-----Holland

    Deschamps------------R. De Boer---------Undecided
    Djorkaeff--------------Seedorf------------Holland

    Ginola-----------------R. van der Kerkhof--France
    Piantoni---------------Roy------------------France

    I realise people will have different choices even if selecting a 4-3-1-2 for each team - I've left Fontaine and Kopa out of this starting 11 etc, so considering this come to your own conclusions. My assessment though, as shown, is that the starting Dutch forwards would give them an advantage - however I actually still favour France slightly as a team somehow. The rest of the squad and the standby players would be reasonably closely matched but definately in the attacking options France have an edge. I think this ability to bring on the aforementioned Kopa and Fontaine for example is partly why I would favour them. Over a tournament this would be a better advantage than in a single game too.
     
  17. dor02

    dor02 Member

    Aug 9, 2004
    Melbourne
    Club:
    UC Sampdoria
    Nat'l Team:
    Italy
    Huntelaar and Lloris don't belong here (yet) and why on Earth is Bryan Roy here?
     
  18. braine

    braine Member

    Feb 5, 2006
    Belgium
    Club:
    FC Barcelona
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    Fully agree,the first two are just accomplish not enough to be in an all-time team and I can name a handful of Dutch strikers that are better than Bryan Roy... Patrick Kluivert for example...
     
  19. Excape Goat

    Excape Goat Member+

    Mar 18, 1999
    Club:
    Real Madrid
    Faas Wilkes should be there, instead of Huntelaar. Kluivert is also ahead of him, despite the sharp drop of forms early on his career. There are also Roy Makaay and Jimmy Floyd Hasselbaink. He does not even get ahead of Van Perise or Kuyt on the current NT.
     
  20. lanman

    lanman BigSoccer Supporter

    Aug 30, 2002
    No Piet Keizer?
     
  21. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    I agree with your general conclusion - ie that it would be pretty close but that France would have the edge (slightly however) mainly due to a stronger defense and midfield.

    However your French line-up looks relatively weak considering all the options available. Cantona should never be considered, not even on the bench in my opinion. Fontaine would be a much better pick up-front, just like Thuram in defense (instead of Liza or Amoros) and Kopa in midfield (instead of Henry).
    On the bench Bossis would be a better choice than Battiston IMHO and I'd like to see Piantoni (instead of Cantona) as well.
     
  22. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Interesting points. I have seen clips of Kopa and Fontaine of course but I find it hard to say whether I would definately select them. I felt by matching the teams in 4-3-1-2 formations, I'd disadvantafed Kopa as if I picked him on the right of a 3 man midfield, behind Platini, I might have been pulled up for being too open and as a pure striker, which he could play I'm sure (dropping deep like a second striker often), I wondered whether Cantona would actually provide more but I appreciate you think emphatically not. I suppose I'm influenced by the knowledge of how highly both Cantona and Henry (plus Pires and Vieira) are rated by English fans based on their time in the Premiership. It would be possible that Cantona could even be rated higher than Bergkamp by the average Englishman. How do you rate Bergkamp compared to Cantona? I feel Dutch fans views of Bergkamp may be closer to the English view than French fans views of Cantona. Also, if the comparison was Kopa and Fontaine vs. Bergkamp and van Basten where do you think the advantage would lie? I found the Cruyff/Platini comparison interesting too because although both are highly-talented they have different playing styles in general and wheras Cruyff would probably be the fulcrum of most of Holland's moves with plenty of dribbling, Platini would be mainly looking for the opportunity to break into a scoring position or play a defence-splitting through ball with a moment of genius. Bearing in mind I'm a Nottingham Forest fan, as well as English, I feel my response to the questions about Bryan Roy being anywhere near the Dutch squad would be based on the excellent form he showed for a short while from 1994 in the Premiership, during which time I certainly wouldn't have wanted (and I think most Forest fans would agree) to have had him swapped for a player like Kluivert or Makaay. Its a similar story with the Norwegian Lars Bohinen that I wouldn't have wanted swapping for several midfielders (eg Ballack if his career had started earlier, having Roy Keane back) that ultimately have a more famous legacy in the game worldwide. Stone, Black, Woan, Scot Gemmill etc had some talent but that Forest side that came 3rd in the Premiership did so mainly because of those two players plus the goals of Collymore I feel. As a penalty box poacher Roy would never be as prolific as Kluivert but he was a far far better dribbler and creative player at his best and a comparison with Piantoni would be more valid in terms of role (he could play wide left in a 4-3-3. either on the wing or left striker of 3, or in a 4-4-2 too). I already named a few strikers in the main Dutch squad so with Gullit and Cruyff there too I didn't feel another one on standby would be necessary, but a player who could play support striker or wide midfield, like Roy, would be better.
     
  23. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    He was a player under consideration, like Wim Jansen and a few others, and I'm aware I'm relying on footage that may be towards the end of his career and not the best he was capable of to make my judgement (in contrast to Jansen). I did fel that Rensenbrink should be selected ahead of him personally though and with Cruyff being surely a brillinat left-winger/left sided midfielder/striker from the left too if necessary, I should fill the squad with other options. On the Nottingham Forest note, just to make my case for not being biased, I didn't include Johnny Metgod despite him being a legend for his free-kicks especially. Jean-Claude Darcheville and Thierry Bonalair weren't shock picks for the French either:eek:;) So, even if people disagree, Bryan Roy was an honest selection (just one which compared to a lot of people I may have seen more evidence of reasons to pick him).
     
  24. PDG1978

    PDG1978 Member+

    Mar 8, 2009
    Club:
    Nottingham Forest FC
    Having seen the draw & schedule for the 2010 World Cup, I realised I did forsee the knockout stages differently - based on the 2010 format I might have to favour Holland to make the final rather than France assuming the favourites to top each group did so, which I'd expect given their all-time squads. A Holland-Germany quarter-final would b a very close call though as would a France-Brazil semi that would be likely unless Hungary topped Group H or England got a quater-final win over France. Whatever format and draw though I would give both Holland and France a decent chance but favour Brazil and going off topic slightly, not give Spain anything like the chance I give them to win in 2010. The draw looks to have given them a better chance than they had already although they would have to be wary as early as the last 16 as they would most likely play either Brazil, Portugal or the Ivory Coast.
     
  25. babaorum

    babaorum Member+

    Aug 20, 2005
    Marseille
    Nat'l Team:
    France
    Kopa could play basically everywhere up-front : centre-forward (Stade de Reims), offensive-midfielder (France), right-winger (Real Madrid). Picking him on the right flank of the attack should not be a major problem. Actually I think the best option would be to pick Kopa and Zidane as right and left offensive midfielders with Platini playing in the hole (a bit like Djorkaeff or Del Piero) and with Fontaine playing as a penalty box-poacher.

    The Kopa/Cantona comparison is interesting. Kopa (like Platini and Zidane for that matter) had the ablility to raise in big occasions. Platini was a better goalscorer but Kopa was equally good at dictating the game, certainly as good as Zidane also (remember WC58 : 2 goals and 9 assists !) and surely more consistent than him overall. Cantona was probably as skilled as Kopa but I've almost never seen him carry a team at the international level as Kopa did. He had numerous oportunities to do it with France (45 caps between 1988 and 1995) but he has always failed. For the same reason I think Berkamp was better too. The Dutchman was a better playmaker as well as a better goalscorer.
    Anyway, if you really want to pick Cantona in your team, he should not be a pure striker - Fontaine, Papin, Trezeguet and even Henry were all better in that position.... Fontaine in particular : you won't find a better goalscorer than him in France, not even Papin. Some were more complete (Cantona, Rocheteau, Henry...) but no one was more prolific than him at both club and NT level. He's criminally underrated by many who think he had only one great moment - WC58. Sadly his carreer was ravaged by severe injuries while he was at his peak (at the age of 27). He was no longer the same player after that. Otherwise I bet he would be considered in the same league as the greatest strikers ever. He was not very creative (less than Cantona surely) but with Kopa, Platini and Zidane playing behind him, it would not be a problem.

    Now if you compare player by player :

    Zidane vs Rensenbrink / Keizer : advantage France
    Platini vs Cruyff : advantage Netherlands... slightly (I don't think Platini's influence for France was inferior to Cruyff's one)
    Kopa vs Berkamp : advantage France
    Fontaine vs Van Basten : advantage Netherlands (Fontaine was as prolific as Van Basten but the Dutchman was more skilled and more complete).

    All in all it's pretty even. France might be better at controling the game and at maintaining possession with 3 world-class playmakers but Netherlands might be able to make a fast, direct game and to create moments of pure brilliance with such soloists as Cruyff, Van Basten and Berkamp.
     

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