2nd yellow

Discussion in 'New England Revolution' started by Coach_Barry, Aug 29, 2002.

  1. Coach_Barry

    Coach_Barry Member

    Aug 18, 2001
    Taunton, MA
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    ftruscot asked how many times this season a referee was brave enough to issue the second yellow.

    The answer is...9.

    Chad McCarty (27 & 71) 3/27 Crew @ Mets (Gus St. Silva)
    Milton Reyes (68 & 88) 4/6 DC @ Dallas (Ricardo Salazar)
    Ross Paule (24 & 57) 4/13 Mets @ Rapids (Erich Simmons)
    Ivan McKinley (33 & 40)4/27 DC @ Crew (Michael Kennedy)
    Peter Vagenas (17 & 69) 6/8 Fire @ LA (Kevin Terry)
    Ante Razov (33 & 45) 7/4 Fire @ Rapids (Noel Kenney)
    Lazo Alavanja (90 & 91) 7/6 DC @ NE (Gerry Corrie)
    Danny Califf (74 & 78) 7/20 KC @ LA (Rich Grady)
    Tony Meola (16 & 91) 8/14 KC @ Fire (Erich Simmons)
  2. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999
    Nice stat Coach - very revealing. I'd like to see what percentage these incidents comprise of the total number of yellow cards issued this year. Something tells me it is a rather small (even miniscule) portion of the total yellow card haul.

    What this shows is that yellow cards have become essentially meaningless as a means of protecting players and preventing thuggish behavior in the MLS. Beyond the long-term threat of suspension because of yellow card accumulation, yellow cards have almost no ability to deter further aggressive play. Players know the main official is extremely unlikely to administer a second yellow. In fact (as has already been pointed out, and as we have often seen this year), particularly hard-bitten thugs actually seem to feel emboldened once they get a yellow - knowing all-the-while that the weanies in the yellow shirts are very unlikely to issue a second.

    Be nice if the Revs could include this in their little Taylor Twellman video package to the League office.
  3. Coach_Barry

    Coach_Barry Member

    Aug 18, 2001
    Taunton, MA
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'll let you count the total yellows and do the math.

    The Revs office is welcome to these stats if it will help keep the thugs off TnT. I wonder if there is a job in this for me. :)
  4. Dan B

    Dan B New Member

    Feb 21, 1999
    Marlborough, MA, USA
    Referees with no balls

    It would be nice to see how this compares to Referees in top leagues around the world. I'm not sure that would show us anything however, as what we really need to see is how many hard tackles are committed after a first yellow, and if that offense is dealt with or brushed off.

    This most likely belongs on another (Referee) forum, but it is the same problem you see in fouls/penalties awarded. A foul is a foul, but if it is in the box, does it get called? If a player has one yellow, many (most) Referees are very reluctant to put their stamp on the outcome of the game by removing that player. Many yellow card infractions could indeed be Red.

    On another note, did Hernandez backfist (elbow) Palacios in the first half? I saw Palacios grab his face after trying to pull Hernandez away from the ball. Palacios then complained to the referee, who just seemed to ignore him.
  5. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    Re: Referees with no balls

    Palacios tried the old arm over the shoulder business with Hernandez, who then through the wraparound arm off, probably scraping a little face with it.

    Palacios played it up to draw a card, but the ref seemed to realize that Palacios was the instigator with his grabbing.

    I saw another instance where Hernandez seemed to stick a knee into someone (Palacios again, I think) who had roughly fouled one of the Revs. Nice to seem him stick up for his mates (w/o getting a card).

    I thought Hernandez played a key role by showing with strength and poise in the middle.
  6. soccertim

    soccertim Member

    Mar 29, 2001
    My quick count on mlsnet (with no checking of my math) was 484 total cards. If so, then we're looking at approximately 2% of the yellow cards being a second yellow. That's a lot lower than I would have guessed.
  7. ctsoccer13

    ctsoccer13 Member+

    Mar 25, 2002
    Manchester United FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was Hernandez who through the knee at Palacios. The ball was just going over the line and Hernandez gave him a little "extra". You're right, it was nice to see someone sticking up for another Rev.
  8. Rodan

    Rodan New Member

    Feb 16, 1999

    Or better yet, if you are a defender who's drawn a yellow because of reckless play, you (statistically) have about a 1 in 50 chance of drawing a second yellow and getting the hook.

    Well, that's a real deterent for ya.

  9. rkupp

    rkupp Member+

    Jan 3, 2001
    I don't think this is an issue that can be quantified with stats. Presumably, players get a little more careful when they've gotten their first card of the match.

    Still, I'm sure that in a referee's mind, if he's going to make a decision to cause a team to play shorthanded, it's got to be for something significant - probably something worse than he would give an initial yellow for.

    Refs use the cards to maintain control over a match much more than to punish ever incident. If they give too many cards it's almost as bad as giving too few in terms of keeping control of the game.
  10. Stuart

    Stuart New Member

    Oct 13, 2001

    As always with statistics, there is more than one way to look at it. One could argue that the first yellow card is such an awesome deterrent that only two percent of offenders go on to commit such a serious offense the second time :)

    Seriously, I think it more likely that MLS does not want players suspended, unless absolutely unavoidable.
  11. frankieg73

    frankieg73 Member

    New England Revolution
    Apr 8, 2001
    St. Petersburg, FL (not my choice)
    New England Revolution
    Nat'l Team:

    While I agree that second yellows should be issued much more than they have been, perhaps they are not being issued as much because each team's rosters are so small. With injuries alone some clubs have had a hard time fielding 11 players and making 3 subs available, but add ejections on top of that and there are some real roster problems.

    I am not defending the refs who seemingly refuse to issue cards when they are desrved, but this may be a league directive to eject as few players as possible so that each club can field 11 players for each match.
  12. Jim Dow

    Jim Dow New Member

    Mar 20, 1999
    Belmont, MA
    Frankieg 73 may be right but isn't that yet another examp-le of MLS short-sightedness? After all, if the players we want to see like TnT, Moreno, etc. get hacked to ineffectiveness by goons who have no fear of being ejected for second yellows, doesn't that dilute the quality of the "product" that newspeak suit-types are always nabbering on about?

    Come on MLS, get serious and do the job as regards this.


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