2023 MLS Week 33 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by A66C, Sep 19, 2023.

  1. A66C

    A66C Member

    N/A
    United States
    Jan 3, 2022
    09/20/23

    Charlotte FC vs Philadelphia Union
    Bank of America Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Jason White
    AR2: Jeffrey Swartzel
    4TH: Chris Penso
    VAR: Greg Dopka
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    Columbus Crew vs Chicago Fire
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismir Pekmic
    AR1: Claudiu Badea
    AR2: Justin Howard
    4TH: Marcos DeOliveira
    VAR: Younes Marrakchi
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    D.C. United vs Atlanta United
    Audi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Lukasz Szpala
    AR1: Cory Richardson
    AR2: Adam Wienckowski
    4TH: JC Griggs
    VAR: Allen Chapman
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    Inter Miami vs Toronto FC
    DRV PNK Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Drew Fischer
    AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt
    AR2: Ryan Graves
    4TH: Ted Unkel
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    CF Montréal vs FC Cincinnati
    Stade Saputo (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Jon Freemon
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Eric Weisbrod
    4TH: Mathieu Souare
    VAR: Luis Guardia
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    New York City FC vs Orlando City
    Citi Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Ismail Elfath
    AR1: Gianni Facchini
    AR2: Chris Elliott
    4TH: Tori Penso
    VAR: Jair Marrufo
    AVAR: Tyler Wyrostek

    New York Red Bulls vs Austin FC
    Red Bull Arena (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Meghan Mullen
    4TH: Thomas Snyder
    VAR: Alejandro Mariscal
    AVAR: Tom Felice

    Houston Dynamo vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Shell Energy Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Ian McKay
    AR2: Diego Blas
    4TH: Danielle Chesky
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: TJ Zablocki

    Sporting Kansas City vs Nashville
    Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Victor Rivas
    AR1: Kyle Atkins
    AR2: Noah Kenyawani
    4TH: Armando Villarreal
    VAR: Edvin Jurisevic
    AVAR: Tom Supple

    St. Louis CITY vs Los Angeles FC
    CITY PARK (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Kevin Lock
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Joe Dickerson
    VAR: Michael Radchuk
    AVAR: Corey Rockwell

    Colorado Rapids vs Seattle Sounders
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Filip Dujic
    AR1: Jeremy Hanson
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Malik Badawi
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    Real Salt Lake vs FC Dallas
    America First Field (9:30PM ET)
    REF: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: Walt Heatherly
    4TH: Brad Jensen
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Jose Da Silva

    LA Galaxy vs Minnesota United
    Dignity Health Sports Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Lyes Arfa
    AR2: Brooke Mayo
    4TH: Mark Allatin
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    Portland Timbers vs San Jose Earthquakes
    Providence Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Ramy Touchan
    AR1: Chris Wattam
    AR2: Mike Rottersman
    4TH: Sergii Boiko
    VAR: Kevin Terry Jr
    AVAR: Tyler Wyrostek
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    MLS debut for Noah Kenyawani
     
  3. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    I would love to know who the top 4th Officials are without having held a whistle.
     
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  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    All-time is Radford. Tyler Ploeger is also up there.
     
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  5. Beau Dure

    Beau Dure Member+

    May 31, 2000
    Vienna, VA
    I didn't like the penalty being waved off in Washington. Not happy with how things played out on VAR -- "OK, we've checked, it's a penalty, so line up ... oh, wait, NOW I'm going to go take a look" -- and not happy with the call. Stretched the definition of the phrase "interfering with play."
     
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  6. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Pretty surprised the second penalty in Columbus wasn’t given as DOGSO red.
     
  7. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Good stoppage time penalties by Freemon and Gonzalez Jr. which each led to the equalizing goal in their respective games.
     
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  8. SouthRef

    SouthRef Member

    Arsenal
    Jun 10, 2006
    USA
    Club:
    Rangers
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    100% correct decisions in both cases but I have to ask why were those challenges made at all?

    Maybe fatigue is setting in?

    gutting way to give up an equalizer in both cases but just remarkably poor judgement.
     
  9. Sport Billy

    Sport Billy Moderator
    Staff Member

    May 25, 2006
    89” caution against STL when they had a break was poor. Zero contact all ball
     
  10. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Touchan rejects the on-field review for a PK call in Portland, sticking with his original no-call.

    I'm a bit on the fence about it. To me it's in the category of "soft foul, but a foul". I think Touchan bailed the San Jose defender out a bit -- the contact was pretty clear. 100% a tripping foul anywhere else on the field.
     
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  11. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Ignore my earlier comment. There’s absolutely no foul in the upper body on this play, now that I have looked at it closely. He’s touching his arm, nothing more.

    Where it gets interesting is the lower body. There is slight contact between the attacker’s right foot and the defender’s left hip, but it’s really soft and to me it looks like the attacker is the one causing the contact.

    At the end of the day, “no clear and obvious error” on the on-field decision of penalty and YC is probably correct, so I’m not surprised Pekmic stuck with his decision after the OFR, but this is a really soft foul if you ask me.
     
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  12. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Meanwhile, in Salt Lake --- holy cow.

    https://reddit.com/r/MLS/s/aNi97SuE7w

    Yellow card on the field -- then he goes to the monitor and keeps that decision.

    To me, this is a bad miss in real time. And an absolute baffling decision to keep with the decision after VAR.

    I get that there's been a little bit of softening the last few years on studs up tackles requiring a red, and some emphasis on really paying attention to force of the impact.

    But this is an easy one.
     
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  13. gaolin

    gaolin Member+

    Apr 21, 2019
    Excuse me, it's *glancing*.
     
  14. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    Not the best angle here, and only seeing slow mo doesn’t help, but I went and looked at the rest from the broadcast, and yeah, it’s super clear red. It’s studs to knee with a lot of speed. He doesn’t pull out. I’m shocked by this decision.
     
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  15. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    The audio there is going to be fascinating.

    Marrakchi is essentially saying "this isn't a foul if you called a hold."

    Pekmic is saying "I've still got a foul."

    At that point... does the OFR to recommend "not a foul" become an OFR to recommend "well, if it's a foul, it's red?"

    It's a weird one--at least procedurally.

    I also think the first OFR to give the penalty was soft and not quite at "clearly wrong." I think there's a chance PRO will agree, but given the result and the lack of attention on it and that both VAR and CR agreed... I'm probably either wrong or you won't hear about it publicly even if I'm right.
     
  16. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Another one where the audio is going to be fascinating, but not to figure out what we're missing. Just to figure out how he justified what has to--has to be--the incorrect outcome.
     
  17. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    I've never been that impressed with Pierre-Luc Lauziere.

    I understand that you have to have Canadian referees in MLS, but with the exception of Fischer and Petrescu, none of the others have really been any good.

    You go back to the beginning of when they came into the league, it's been a rotating cast of really mediocre referees. Paul Ward, Geoff Gamble, etc. Pierre-Luc Lauziere seems to fall into that category as well.

    From what I've seen so far off Djuic he has a chance to be better than most of the other Canadian referees we've seen in MLS over the years.

    Anyone have an explanation or is the sample size just too small to make a definite conclusion?
     
  18. akindc

    akindc Member+

    Jun 22, 2006
    Washington, DC
    I'm still confused by this, possibly becuase I never saw a decent replay.
     
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  19. StarTime

    StarTime Member+

    United States
    Oct 18, 2020
    It really depends what foul Pekmic called live. I have to imagine he called it a trip in real time, because otherwise I can’t imagine how he would go with a yellow card on such a blatant OGSO. The communication must have been weird though, because the review seems to be focused on the upper body at first.

    My theory is that, one way or another, Marrakchi didn’t originally get the information that Pekmic was calling it a trip, which brought Pekmic to the monitor to look at the upper body, and then during the OFR Pekmic finally asked him to look at the lower body.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    This is effectively what happened. Pekmic ultimately was calling the trip. Whether or not that's what he called live OR there was enough of a "trip" to warrant sticking with the call... well, those are different questions. But ultimately, the penalty and DOGSO-yellow were upheld by him due to a trip.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It was a rather complicated offside that needed multiple angles to confirm, which is why it took so long. Remember that the veracity of the penalty decision is being checked first. So that got dispensed with. Then the APP is checked. The idea that the players lined up shouldn't be indicative of anything here--in theory, players are supposed to line up immediately when any penalty is called! It's just that the dissent usually takes up the first 45 seconds or so. Because this check had two somewhat complicated components, it just took a lot longer.

    You had two attackers clearly in an offside position. Then it became a question of #4 challenging for the ball. You can say it "stretches the definition" of interfering with play, but it doesn't. He challenged an opponent for the ball. And made physical contact, which isn't even necessary but certainly icing on the cake. You (and others) probably don't like it because a different attacker headed the ball, but it's actually 100% within the framework of interfering with play. It's a textbook example. It's only weird because another (onside) DCU player was also challenging and actually played the ball.

    With all that said... while it was complicated and correct, it still did take too long!
     
  22. incognitoind

    incognitoind Member

    Apr 8, 2015
    Would you be happier with “challenges an opponent”? Guy in an OSP clearly jumps and tries to play the ball. The really isn’t any more than that here. Also, it’s pretty standard to go ahead and line up for the penalty while you wait for the check complete. Most penalties are correctly given
     
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  23. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Lack of force. Bent leg.

    I am informed now that those are the arguments. Take that for what you will.
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    There were eight reviews last night. Four OFRs were rejected.

    For one matchday, both "8" and "50%" are big numbers. I don't want to suggest the wheels are coming off, but it's possible things aren't trending well right now. Particularly that 50% figure.
     
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  25. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    It's been trending that way for seemingly the last month or so. A lot of reviews and a lot of bad processes in those reviews by the VARs and referees.

    It also doesn't help that PRO is hedging on some of the OFRs for violent conduct and serious foul play. Basically saying, "correct recommendation with correct outcome" even though the referee didn't change their decision."

    So you're encouraging both VAR and referee to keep doing what they've been doing.
     
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