That doesn't change the argument at all though. I am giving examples of "possession" and it's interwoven use (without definition) throughout the Laws and in the understanding of the game in general. Anyway the VAR part that I quote talks about the team gaining possession to start the attacking phase...yes..exactly. And "decisions relating to goals" are supposed to take that into account are they not? How was possession gained? By being offside. Am I missing something? (wouldn't be the first time) I'm not saying there needed to be VAR involvement in this case since the Referee and his assistant seemed to come to a decision on the pitch. I'm just using an example of the mystery undefined "possession". I think we all agree that possession matters when making decisions, even though it is undefined and not mentioned specifically. It falls into the common sense category.
I agree common sense dictates. But this has nothing to do with possession - Rashford never possessed the ball. He was in within playing distance. He made a movement towards the ball (the deke), but he never possessed it. It also isn't relevant to this play.
What am I missing here, this seems like a pretty clear penalty to me. The defender missed the ball and carelessly kicks the attacker in the ankle. I agree with the VAR, no foul here is a clear and obvious error to me. Is there some factor here that I’m not missing? I feel like I must be missing something from the reaction here. Or do you guys just think the force was trifling?
Matchweek 21 Liverpool - Chelsea Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: John Brooks. Assistant VAR: Constantine Hatzidakis. Bournemouth - Nottingham Forest Referee: Andy Madley. Assistants: Harry Lennard, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes. Leicester - Brighton Referee: Thomas Bramall. Assistants: Derek Eaton, Steve Meredith. Fourth official: Peter Bankes. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Adrian Holmes. Southampton - Aston Villa Referee: Michael Salisbury. Assistants: Dan Cook, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Keith Stroud. VAR: Simon Hooper. Assistant VAR: Richard West. West Ham - Everton Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Darren Cann, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Dean Whitestone. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Adam Nunn. Crystal Palace - Newcastle Referee: Craig Pawson. Assistants: Marc Perry, Scott Ledger. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Gary Beswick. Leeds - Brentford Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Eddie Smart, Nick Greenhalgh. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: James Mainwaring. Man City - Wolves Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Lee Betts, Timothy Wood. Fourth official: Thomas Bramall. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin. Arsenal - Man Utd Referee: Anthony Taylor. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Andre Marriner. VAR: Michael Salisbury. Assistant VAR: Dan Robathan. Fulham - Tottenham Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: Michael Oliver. Assistant VAR: Darren Cann.
"Big" matches: Liverpool - Man City (Community Shield): Pawson Chelsea - Tottenham: Taylor Man Utd - Liverpool: Oliver Everton - Liverpool: Taylor Man Utd - Arsenal: Tierney Arsenal - Tottenham: Taylor Man City - Man Utd: Oliver Arsenal - Liverpool: Oliver Liverpool - Man City: Taylor Man Utd - Tottenham: Hooper Chelsea - Arsenal: Oliver Liverpool - Tottenham: A. Madley Arsenal - Newcastle: A. Madley Man Utd - Man City: Attwell Tottenham - Arsenal: Pawson Arsenal - Man Utd: Taylor Liverpool - Chelsea: Oliver Distribution of these matches in the EPL: Oliver: 5 Taylor: 5 A. Madley: 2 Attwell: 1 Hooper: 1 Pawson: 1 Tierney: 1
Watch the attacker’s foot. He steps on the defender before he’s kicked. Just because the defender doesn’t go down doesn’t mean it’s not a foul. If the defender goes down and writhes in pain, it’s a yellow card on the attacker.
I know we've gone in circles with this debate before, but is it really necessary to highlight Liverpool vs. Chelsea as a big game? It's 9th vs. 10th in the table and a match that was only considered a big game in the last 18 years or so when the teams were at the top of the table. When they were mediocre it didn't matter as much.
The flip side of that argument is that these are two of the richest clubs in the world with hundreds of millions of eyes on the match and if one team drops all three points they are effectively eliminated from champions league contention for 2023-4. So it’s no surprise Oliver is on it. It’s a very consequential match with a ton of pressure on both sides.
Completely agreed. This time, it is really a huge match, despite (or because of!) the table positions.
https://www.goal.com/en/news/which-...tball-clubs-in-2021/psbb7gblbm6j1m5mc753tv1us I would understand the argument if this was 2005-2006 when the Premier League wasn't the financial behemoth that it is now. Half of the Premier League is now amongst the richest clubs in the world. This list doesn't include Newcastle United which will eventually end up on the richest clubs list probably in the next two years. The Premier League is starting to turn into the NFL, or the SEC, where they are becoming the only game in town from a fiscal perspective. Leicester City vs. West Ham United is a bigger game, from a fiscal perspective, than AC Milan vs. Inter Milan. It's not quite analogous, but the Premier League is so far ahead of everyone, that it would be like saying an NFL Washington Commanders versus Green Bay Packers week 14 Monday Night game is a big game when both teams are 4-9 because the two teams are the wealthiest in the world at their sport and have a history of success. When Texas and Oklahoma join the SEC, LSU vs. Texas won't be considered a big game from a referee stand point if both teams are 4-4 coming into the game. You'll have six other big games.
No VAR assignment for Dean after his horrible performance in Newcastle-Fulham.....perhaps a sign that the PGMOL feels he screwed up by sending down the non-foul on Trippier for the Fulham PK.
Two things. One, I'd be careful to not call this a "non-foul." It was a foul. What makes it a bad send down is that the attacker fouls the defender first. You could also argue (and I would) that the APP starts because the attacker who wins the penalty actually fouls a different Newcastle player from behind as he starts to dribble out. In other words, there are two APP fouls that would negate this penalty. The problem is that the EPL isn't sophisticated enough with VAR (or, they don't want that much VAR interference) to be thorough and get this right. It's a missed penalty that is negated by an APP foul. The result should be a free kick coming out. Second, I genuinely don't know when assignments are communicated and how often an official is removed for poor performance. In MLS, it has to be really egregious for the next assigment to change. Usually an error or series of errors would result in future assignments being adjusted. Maybe in England, with the closer geography, immediate adjustments are more possible/frequent. But I have never learned the answer to this with any satisfaction. To the extent your theory might hold here, it is also worth noting Jones is only a fourth official this week--though an argument could be made he's not an every-week referee anyway so that's not dispositive.
Hold on. I think in the effort to throw the kitchen sink at EPL officials, some here often raise accusations that really aren't true. This penalty stands out for me precisely because we have too few VAR interventions in the EPL, not too many. I think the argument that "far too often [VARs] are substituting their opinion for that of the CR" is just flat-out wrong. We've been railing about missed SFP and missed penalties all year (and for multiple seasons now) precisely because the C&O standard can seem, at times, impossible to reach in England. This stands out for two reasons. The first is that it is wrong, given the APP foul(s). The second is that it isn't consistent with the bar that has been established in England, so the involvement here of a VAR is an outlier. In a perfect world, without the APP foul, I want to stress that this would be a good intervention. And that would be a change from what we've seen in England to date. I think, under a Webb regime, you're going to see penalties like this more often than not, which would bring the league in line with the rest of the world (and probably consistent with what @StarTime asked when he said "what am I missing?"). Trippier kicks his opponent without touching the ball at all. It would be a nailed-on penalty... if not for the APP foul(s). That's the issue here and we shouldn't lose sight of that.
I disagree. Look at the goal called back from Newcastle (vs Palace, i think). Referee called no foul No player called for a foul No one in the stadium expected a foul. In fact, the FA said it VAR intervention was incorrect. Regardless, C & O had no role in VAR's intervention at all. It was one VAR official thinking he saw a foul. C&O is far more than I think I saw a foul you didn't. C&O is that your call/non-call was so wrong, the rules require me to step in. To many VAR officials are simply replacing their judgment for the CR. That's not how this is supposed to work. Look at the very play we are discussing. Some refs would have called this some refs wouldn't. But it was a judgment issue and not clear error.
As there are usually only 10 matches each regular week, many of the referees do not get whistle slots every week, so I don't think anything should be read into his working as a 4th this week. Also worth noting is that Jones is their new person on the FIFA Referees' list. I expect that he will soon be getting a larger share of the slots in the middle, and will join the top group. PH
So you're using one example to disagree? I mean, how on earth do you know that? You're suggesting Mike Dean just made things up wholesale and that you understand what he's supposed to do better than him. To repeat myself, this is a clear foul. The expectation in all other competitions I know is that this is a penalty--yes, even via VAR. Trippier kicks his opponent without kicking the ball. There's really nothing to mitigate that other than "oh this is England and it's right near the boundary line so that's kind of soft and we don't like to give it." The problem here is the ignoring of the APP foul(s). For you to flatly say the decision to not call a penalty isn't clear and obvious is weird. I can tell we are likely to go round in circles here so I'll just reiterate I find this to be the exact opposite of the truth and leave things there. The complaints about VARing in England--other than offside decisions--has been vastly on the side of "how on earth didn't VAR get invovled there" rather than the opposite. If that's your argument, then everything is a judgment call and therefore VAR should never get involved on penalty decisions. VAR isn't new. For five years now we have seen thousands of "judgment calls" changed through VAR protocols because the initial judgment is deemed a clear and obvious error by the VAR and referee.
Thanks for pointing this out, I see that now and completely agree. Maybe Dean made the same mistake I did (though I would hope he looked at more than the one camera angle).
Rashfrord’s no offside theory not applied in USWNT game tonight. Player in offside position doesn’t touch ball yet is called
It's hard to tell if the flag was up because they thought there was a slight deflection by Horan, which is hard to tell after watching it a few times (the ball seems to slow down, but I could be wrong). If there was not a touch on the ball, the same argument came be made as in the Premier League game that the offside player affected the goalkeepers attempt to get the ball (where it's more obvious it did in this match).
I don't think this is remotely similar to the PL play. Horan unambiguously attempts to play the ball in the PA in front of the GK. This is exactly the kind of play that the attempt bullet was written for. No one discussing the PL play has argued that it cannot be OS unless the ball is touched.
I predict that we all will learn (through unfortunate experience in the coming months) that many people have come to that conclusion. ...including the announcers of the Newcastle Fulham game last week.
Jones really not covering himself in glory at 72’ and 73’ First, a pretty obvious trip for a penalty that he doesn’t give. But then he immediately puts hand to ear to try to convince United “we’ll check, it will be given if it is.” Except, it’s not. Because of that high intervention bar. I really think there’s a phenomenon now of CRs not giving penalties that they used to give because they don’t want to be wrong and then VARs not intervening because of the high bar. Mike Dean notwithstanding. Then a dust up with McTominay and Zaha where Jones just looks like a passenger along for the ride. First he doesn’t want to call anything. Then does, but tries to speak to both, pleading for them to come over. Just no authority or ownership in any of it.
Rob Jones is not FIFA referee quality. I do think he has a really good potential. The problem is, he’s already 35. He’ll have to make significant leaps in the next few years to end up anywhere near Taylor or Oliver