2021 MLS Week 18 Referee Discussion

Discussion in 'MLS Referee Forum' started by ManiacalClown, Aug 7, 2021.

  1. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    08/07/21

    FC Cincinnati vs Orlando City
    TQL Stadium (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Fotis Bazakos
    AR1: Peter Balciunas
    AR2: Peter Manikowski
    4TH: Matt Franz
    VAR: Dave Gantar
    AVAR: Jeffrey Swartzel

    Columbus Crew vs Atlanta United
    Lower.com Field (7:30PM ET)
    REF: Allen Chapman
    AR1: Brian Dunn
    AR2: Jeff Hosking
    4TH: Sergii Demianchuk
    VAR: Ramy Touchan
    AVAR: Diego Blas

    Minnesota United vs Houston Dynamo
    Allianz Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Silviu Petrescu
    AR1: Eric Boria
    AR2: Justin Howard
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Craig Lowry

    Toronto FC vs New York City FC
    BMO Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Robert Sibiga
    AR1: Micheal Barwegen
    AR2: Stefan Tanaka-Freundt
    4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere
    VAR: Jorge Gonzalez
    AVAR: Robert Schaap

    FC Dallas vs Austin FC
    Toyota Stadium (8:30PM ET)
    REF: Alan Kelly
    AR1: Ian McKay
    AR2: Ryan Graves
    4TH: Chris Ruska
    VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero
    AVAR: Fabio Tovar

    Colorado Rapids vs Sporting Kansas City
    Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET)
    REF: Ted Unkel
    AR1: Corey Rockwell
    AR2: Jeremy Kieso
    4TH: Alyssa Nichols
    VAR: Chico Grajeda
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    Portland Timbers vs Real Salt Lake
    Providence Park (10:30PM ET)
    REF: Rosendo Mendoza
    AR1: Cameron Blanchard
    AR2: TJ Zablocki
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Apolinar Mariscal
     
  2. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    08/08/21

    Chicago Fire FC vs New York Red Bulls
    Soldier Field (6PM ET)
    REF: Guido Gonzales Jr
    AR1: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho
    AR2: Claudiu Badea
    4TH: Ismir Pekmic
    VAR: Alex Chilowicz
    AVAR: Joshua Patlak

    Inter Miami vs Nashville
    DRV PNK Stadium (6PM ET)
    REF: Nima Saghafi
    AR1: Adam Garner
    AR2: Brian Poeschel
    4TH: Matthew Corrigan
    VAR: Sorin Stoica
    AVAR: Gjovalin Bori

    New England Revolution vs Philadelphia Union
    Gillette Stadium (6PM ET)
    REF: Armando Villarreal
    AR1: Kevin Klinger
    AR2: Matthew Nelson
    4TH: Joshua Encarnacion
    VAR: Joe Dickerson
    AVAR: Jonathan Johnson

    San Jose Earthquakes vs Los Angeles FC
    PayPal Park (7PM ET)
    REF: Rubiel Vazquez
    AR1: Logan Brown
    AR2: Jeffrey Greeson
    4TH: Elijio Arreguin
    VAR: Kevin Stott
    AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert

    D.C. United vs CF Montréal
    Audi Field (8PM ET)
    REF: Marcos DeOliveira
    AR1: Jose Da Silva
    AR2: Gianni Facchini
    4TH: JC Griggs
    VAR: Jon Freemon
    AVAR: Jozef Batko

    LA Galaxy vs Vancouver Whitecaps
    Dignity Health Sports Park (8PM ET)
    REF: Baldomero Toledo
    AR1: Chris Elliott
    AR2: Eduardo Mariscal
    4TH: Greg Dopka
    VAR: Daniel Radford
    AVAR: Felisha Mariscal
     
  3. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    So nothing happened this weekend, right?
     
  4. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Columbus fans on Twitter were so happy about the two penalty calls that they declared it rigged after an incredibly obvious offside review overturned a goal. But other than that....
     
  5. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, I thought the two Atlanta penalties were interesting because they looked and felt eerily similar, but I actually believe the first one was wrongly awarded while the second one was a correct call.

    On the first one, the ball essentially gets lost to the attacker's right--he's not going to maintain possession--and he sticks his right leg out to ensure contact as he goes to the ground while he's already off-balance. There's just really nothing there and no reason for that contact to occur other than the attacker's actions. The defender doesn't come close enough to commit a true foul; he's actually shown care in his actions, stopping before he would have initiated contact.

    On the second one, the similarity is that the attacker drags or sticks out his leg to ensure the contact. But in this case, the defender is clumsily charging at the attacker and takes away space that the attacker can plausibly use. You can say the attacker went looking for the penalty, but you also can say the defender has taken a risk and been careless in his actions.

    If you isolate everything on the two defenders in the two penalties, I think it's actually a perfect example of the difference between a defender showing care (#1) and a defender being careless (#2). But everyone will instead focus on the attacker and say he simulated both times, which is unfortunate.
     
  6. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
  7. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  8. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  9. Midwest Ref

    Midwest Ref Member

    Jul 25, 2002
    He kicks him above the knee with force, at speed, and has no chance for the ball. In what world would we not want this to be a red card? By going yellow, you are saying that everyone gets to do that once and stay on the field.
     
  10. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I'd have been totally fine with red there. I like red better. Instead of committing a "normal" tactical foul, he attacked his opponent's knee quite deliberately. That's "excessive force," by defiition, in my eyes.

    It's not going to be a VAR red card because it's not clearly wrong, though.

    But, this is another classic example of a tackle that doesn't have buzzword components (e.g., "studs," "mode of contact," "two-footed," etc.) so referees tend to ignore the more umbrella category of "excessive force."
     
    Thegreatwar and GlennAA11 repped this.
  11. sjquakes08

    sjquakes08 Member+

    Jun 16, 2007
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
  12. threeputzzz

    threeputzzz Member+

    May 27, 2009
    Minnesota
    Sure, I've had two of them, but between the stadium barricades that should be too difficult for a child that size to scale and security and parents that should be paying better attention, this really shouldn't happen.
     
  13. JasonMa

    JasonMa Member+

    Mar 20, 2000
    Arvada, CO
    Club:
    Colorado Rapids
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I assume its from field side seating, which may or may not have barriers between the seats and the field
     
  14. davidjd

    davidjd Member+

    Jun 30, 2000
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Yeah, from the pics I pulled up there are no boards on the near side. Front row is pitch level with just standard stadium bars to slide under.
     
    JasonMa repped this.
  15. pr0ner

    pr0ner Member+

    Jan 13, 2007
    Alexandria, VA
    Club:
    DC United
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    You and @MassachusettsRef do make a good point. I didn't give enough credit to where Miller's foot hit Paredes and how late the challenge was on him when watching the play, both in stadium and on replay. I do see why VAR wouldn't say that's a clear and obvious error and not overturn it, but I think I would have been okay with red there the more I think about it.
     
  16. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    For me, a clearly cynical/tactical foul would probably lend itself more toward red if I had an inkling that it was more than just a "normal foul". Here's an example - attacker goes past defender. Defender grabs a big handful of shirt at the bottom of the shirt. Pretty eash yellow foul for SPA. Now if the defender makes a deliberate whack/kick, my idea of what could cross into the land of a send-off is heightened.

    A good example of this was the red card in the Wales-Denmark Round of 16 Euro game right near the end. The Wales guy was sent off for a clearly cynical kick that was part stopping an attack / part (in my mind) a "we're getting smoked, and I'm going to get a lick in before we're done here". If that kind of play is done in a more genuine effort to challenge for the ball, maybe it's yellow. But that type of foul in that type of situation can work closer to a red.
     
    jarbitro repped this.
  17. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    Here's week 17/18. 25 matches with 6 reviews.

     
  18. code1390

    code1390 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Nov 25, 2007
    Club:
    Tottenham Hotspur FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    I quick note, this is the second straight week in which the biggest incident is not covered (double red in Atlanta) which sadly means this weekly series is quickly losing it's credibility from fans (which can be seen on the MLS reddit).
     
    MassachusettsRef repped this.
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    How early was I harping on the "partial transparency" issue?
     
    JasonMa and code1390 repped this.
  20. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    It absolutely does not help that they haven't put out The Definitive Angle since Week 13.
     

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