Seriously watching the video, they're absolutely pathetic. The last sort of people I'd want in charge in a serious situation, and they're the head coaches. The referee in contrast I don't really rate, but he's completely calm, answering questions and getting confirmation. The Atlanta coach was acting like he was just trying to deliberately get the referee pissed at him. How is that an intelligent way to behave?
10/04/20 Real Salt Lake vs Los Angeles FC Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30PM ET) REF: Nima Saghafi AR1: Chris Elliott AR2: Art Arustamyan 4TH: Elijio Arreguin VAR: Allen Chapman RSL aren't good enough for AVARs, apparently.
https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...ted-vs-atlanta-united-fc/details/video/241914 I'm not that interested in the sub fiasco. How can a player who isn't even rostered allowed to dress and sit on the bench in the first place? How is that possible? I'm more concerned with how that challenge above is not viewed as a red card by the referee? How do you not have a feel for the game there and think that isn't a red card? It's a text book frustration challenge by a player whose team is down 4-0 in the 94th minute. It's from behind with a scissor motion while the ball is gone. Get him out of there. Incredible. Any referee that referees any competitive amateur soccer would be able to recognize that challenge.
To be fair, there's like 20 minutes left in the game Definite Red Card, surprised the other team didn't go nuts over it.
So what we figured out this week is that Landon Donovan is one of the most mature coaches in American soccer? Can't say I saw that coming...
Even without the substitution issue, there were a bunch of weird things that I don't think PRO will be happy with. I've been saying for awhile that professional level ARs should call the obvious encroachment because they are fully capable and it would save a ton of time by removing an unnecessary VAR intervention. And then a professional AR calls a non-existent encroachment (which, if he had been right, he wouldn't exactly have been obviously right!) that requires VAR intervention. That's unbelievable and, sadly, supports an argument to just leave it all to the VAR. The garbage tackle at the end of the DCU game not being given as red is disappointing. Having no VAR intervention is almost mind-blowing. I understand an argument that if a referee can read a game and understand everyone will accept yellow in that particular 4-0 game (because let's be serious, there are many 4-0 games where that tackle blows the lid off everything), then yellow is acceptable refereeing. But that argument isn't supposed to fly at the professional level with VARs anymore. The DOGSO situation in Seattle is baffling. I have a foul coming out. My understanding is that entire review was pretty ugly and I don't think referee and VAR were on the same page because it shouldn't take that long to turn red into yellow there. I think a lot more was up for debate and I don't think the referee came close to the correct end result. The handball in San Jose is weird. I guess, given the distance, you can't say it's clearly wrong not to give? But it's close. Then there's the question of in versus out and I think "in" wins out--so good VARing there. But there's also the question of an attacking handball in the APP and I really don't know what the answer is on that one. It's an accidental or non-deliberate handball that normally wouldn't be an infraction except it led almost directly to a penalty kick except no one knew at the time that it would lead to a penalty kick. So... can something that wasn't an infraction when it happened become an infraction because it was technically subject to a VAR check? Probably good it wasn't (though if it was, you could have annulled a borderline penalty through a backdoor), but I think it's a wide open question. Also the missed penalty in Minnesota even needing to go to VAR is unfortunate. I'm loathe to pick on a referee usually but De Oliviera seems to consistently have a VAR review or two each week that should have been obvious in the first place. I am sure the frequency isn't that high, but it's only a slight exaggeration. It feels like he would be struggling to keep his spot in the league if not for VAR. In the good category, Dickerson's red for DOGSO qualified. Too many referees miss that and get fooled into thinking there was cover.
Reporting on what happened with the substitution. If this is all correct, no way to blame Dickerson. Maybe some blame for the fourth, but seems like it would have happened to anyone in the league. And huge plaudits to the AVAR for catching it all. Been poking around for a few days re: what happened w/Canouse's failed substitution the other day. I'm still a little murky on how he ended up on the bench to begin with, but in terms of how he ended up on the field, it seems pretty clear (thread.) #DCU #MLS— Pablo Iglesias Maurer (@MLSist) October 5, 2020
Definitely didn't expect to find out that the PMEs are checking rosters. Basically, this sounds like a failed spot check. You've got the highly irregular scenario of two backup goalkeepers on the roster but only one goalkeeper on the bench. Oopsie woopsie.
I expect @ManiacalClown knows this and was being cheeky, but in case others are curious, I've heard a couple times now that the most common reason we're seeing partial crews is that someone on the original crew assignment is unable to be there, generally because of some Covid-related concern (inconclusive test, quarantine requirement, etc.). That's also the reason we're seeing crew announcements so close to kickoff - they don't want to announce crews and then have somebody no-show. (Probably @MassachusettsRef or others can correct/clean up my note here.)
I think there is blame on the league for allowing this level of complacency to occur, but it's overall just a head-scratcher, because it's such an easily avoidable situation. I'm much less flummoxed about an ineligible player being allowed on the bench--there's a lot going on in the technical area, and I can imagine it being somewhat difficult to be aware of exactly who is in there at all times. But the fact that checking the roster is not a standard step for every single substitution is surprising to me, considering I've done youth games where the 4th official checked the roster and player pass on every single substitution. Obviously the 4th official in a professional match has a lot on his plate, but managing substitutions is still one of his most critical functions... Regardless, I bet this never happens again.
Maybe a little extra clarity... the MLS no longer allows for paper copies of the match day rosters (Covid precaution) which are submitted 1 hour prior to kick off. That means about the time the crew is walking out for their warmups they are receiving an email with a digital match roster. Most AVARs are copying this to their books during pregame or simply looking at their phone in venues with no in booth cameras. That would be why Jeff was able to catch it. Keep in mind, most of the time the AVAR is not notified ahead of a sub. there are many solutions available. I wouldn’t be surprised to see some kind of allowance for personal devices for the 4th to check this or more define procedure involving the officials
Isn't the 4th for this game actually an AR? Wonder the last time he's done a 4th. Wonder if the referee gave him a thorough pre game regarding 4th duties. First thing I do as a 4th, just prior to kick off or in first couple of minutes is get a roster out and check every sub on the bench against the rostered subs, as well as all technical staff (how many are allowed for that league) being rostered as well. Anyone that doesn't need to be there, see ya.
But if there is no paper roster, and the 4th isn't permitted to have a phone/device, how would he possibly do that? Based on what @incognitoind posted above, it sounds like this is a failure in procedure design, not a failure by the 4th. The team screwed up by mismatching the official roster with what the players were told. And the procedures available to the ref team made it hard to catch in a timely fashion. A very unusual circumstance to start with--but there will undoubtedly be a new process, perhaps as simple as the 4th telling the AVAR who is reporting as a sub so the AVAR can confirm the roster.
No, Matt Franz is on the referee track. Has been a regular in the NWSL and USL in the past couple of years. Maybe he was an AR before that I’m forgetting, but I’ve always seen him in the middle or as a fourth.
I understand there is no paper roster as normal. But let's not make excuses, as this is entirely inexcusable for a professional referee crew to not figure out a way to make sure this doesn't happen. If I'm a 4th I'm handwriting my own roster in the locker room based off my phone roster, or just taking my phone out with me to the game. Either way, it's insanity to be trusting teams not to screw up.
Is the lack of paper roster a COVID thing, or is there some other reason for it? Pulling out a cell phone just looks so incredibly amateurish, and there are obvious potential issues (thank God we didn't have to watch Dickerson digging through his bag for a charger).
Yes. Normally an hour prior to kick is roster exchange in the referee locker room with team reps. Carbon copies are signed and exchanged amongst all parties and then teams can publicly release starters.
The player was on for 2 and a half minutes, it got sorted out, nothing bad happened and we all learned from it. Let's just keep to the protocols that protect us against covid and not introduce more ways for us to get sick like writing the roster down on paper.
Being a 4th on a professional match and handling substitutions is not as easy as you think. There is a lot to do in a short amount of time. It's actually quite nerve-racking You have to validate the sub-pass, tell the referee that there is a substitution coming up. You have to tell the red hat who is coming in and who is coming out. You then have to tell the liason or who ever is setting up the sub-boards the correct numbers, etc. You kind of have to trust that a team won't be bringing in a player who isn't on the roster. You just don't have time to validate the team sheet against the sub pass. You have to do all of that while having like 10 pounds of communication equipment on you. This isn't an issue where the referee crew allowed a team to get an extra sub when they didn't have any or allowed a player who was already subbed out to sub back in. There has to be a certain level of trust and acceptance that professional teams won't try and sneak players in illegally like an amateur team on a Sunday morning. The blame here falls in the protocols and with DC United.
I’m convinced there is some book or training material that gets passed around to coaches of a certain level. This book basically explains little ways to try and pick at referees over nonsensical things in order to throw them off. I’m always amazed at the ludicrous mind fu that some coaches think they have at games.
let’s go easy on the 4th. He is required on the field during the warmups for a number of items including checking the RRA, checking the balls (yes done on the field), and the 4th duties the rest of us do (trainers, red hat, wet bulb, sub passes, etc.) By the time he gets back to the locker room there is only about 10 minutes to change into jersey and prepare his own equipment and last minute changes. I wouldn’t add the task of copying down 36 names when the PME is already in place for this exact reason.
You almost want to just say "Ya know this is just making me madder at you right? How do you expect that to benefit you?"
I almost feel like that’s the goal though. Like getting you pissed will somehow make you more pliant to their complaints. I guess it can put doubt in some refs and work, but for me, it’s like you said. My level of patience with you shrinks by the second coach.
Do you really think that in the age of Covid, there is a roster exchange in any locker room with team reps? As has been previously pointed out, the duties of checking / verifying rosters has been delegated to the PME. One question raised from the twitter thread was that they said the PME had a paper copy of the roster. I wonder if DCU provided him with a printed roster that was different than what was provided electronically.