09/23/20 New England Revolution vs Montreal Impact Gillette Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Fotis Bazakos AR1: Ian McKay AR2: Gjovalin Bori 4TH: Ted Unkel VAR: Kevin Terry Jr AVAR: Tom Supple Atlanta United vs FC Dallas Mercedes-Benz Stadium (7PM ET) REF: Tim Ford AR1: Corey Rockwell AR2: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein 4TH: Matt Thompson VAR: Jorge Gonzalez New York City FC vs Toronto FC Red Bull Arena (7PM ET) REF: Joe Dickerson AR1: Kyle Atkins AR2: Ryan Graves 4TH: Sergii Demianchuk VAR: Chris Penso Chicago Fire vs Houston Dynamo Soldier Field (7:30PM ET) REF: Marcos DeOliveira AR1: Andrew Bigelow AR2: Peter Manikowski 4TH: Ismir Pekmic VAR: Dave Gantar FC Cincinnati vs Philadelphia Union Nippert Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Guido Gonzales Jr AR1: Cory Richardson AR2: Peter Balciunas 4TH: Natalie Simon VAR: Chico Grajeda AVAR: Craig Lowry Columbus Crew vs Minnesota United MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Corey Parker AR2: CJ Morgante 4TH: Elvis Osmanovic VAR: Sorin Stoica AVAR: Brooke Mayo Sporting Kansas City vs Orlando City Children’s Mercy Park (7:30PM ET) REF: Victor Rivas AR1: Cameron Blanchard AR2: Matthew Nelson 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Daniel Radford AVAR: Fabio Tovar Inter Miami vs New York Red Bulls Inter Miami CF Stadium (8PM ET) REF: Alex Chilowicz AR1: Brian Poeschel AR2: Jose Da Silva 4TH: JJ Bilinski VAR: Armando Villarreal AVAR: Jozef Batko Nashville vs D.C. United Nissan Stadium (8:30PM ET) REF: Tori Penso AR1: Logan Brown AR2: Jeremy Hanson 4TH: Robert Sibiga VAR: Alan Kelly Colorado Rapids vs San Jose Earthquakes Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (9PM ET) REF: Drew Fischer AR1: Eric Weisbrod AR2: Chris Elliott 4TH: Adam Kilpatrick VAR: Malik Badawi AVAR: Jason White Real Salt Lake vs LA Galaxy Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30PM ET) REF: Silviu Petrescu AR1: Claudiu Badea AR2: TJ Zablocki 4TH: Nima Saghafi VAR: Edvin Jurisevic Portland Timbers vs Seattle Sounders Providence Park (10PM ET) REF: Allen Chapman AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt AR2: Jeff Hosking 4TH: Farhad Dadkho VAR: Ramy Touchan AVAR: Joshua Patlak Los Angeles FC vs Vancouver Whitecaps Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: Rubiel Vazquez AR1: Adam Garner AR2: Tiffini Turpin 4TH: Michael Radchuk VAR: Kevin Stott AVAR: Mike Kampmeinert
Am curious to know what Russell Canouse said to Tori Penso to get a straight red in first half stoppage time just after getting cautioned for a foul.
It was a second caution. Canouse was also booked in the 37th minute. Both were pretty nailed on cards (second was a SPA card).
there was a lot of confusion as the TV people weren't aware of the first caution and the MLS website didn't have it at first either...they initially reported it as caution and red for abusive language. But they corrected it.
I know you're a DCU fan. Are you listening to the DC announcers? The Nashville announcers on the ESPN+ feed seemed to identify Canouse as already being on a yellow right before Penso showed the yellow and started reaching for her red.
I think part of the confusion was that the TV broadcast cut to a replay as the caution was being shown. Regardless, both cautions seem pretty uncontroversial. Some referees might have tried to get away with ass-chewing on the second one, but they'd be wrong to do so.
yes, watching the DC feed, but I did go to the MLS website to check and it was wrong there too at first
Thanks. The TV broadcast totally missed the first card, and MLS's website originally showed that incident as a yellow and then a straight red.
I would have to assume that the DCU announcers are calling the match from a studio, and the first card came after a little bit of a delay. I can't totally blame them for missing the card if that was the case.The Nashville announcers are on site calling the match from a booth.
I thought Penso did a good job in the game. She didn't over react, she let a lot of physical play go, and she had good positioning and fitness throughout. I can think of some other ref's debuts where they looked much less confident. Maybe she could have sold the red card better had she gone to her pocket for the yellow sooner, but it looked like she was talking it over with AR2 first, which is totally understandable. Speaking of the 2nd caution, the thing is it didn't have to be a caution, but the foul itself was very similar to his first card. That makes me more inclined to back the send-off. It was the same kind of clumsy foul to break up an attack. If a guy gets carded for that, then does it again...well, the Rs credibility disappears if she treats the second one differently than the first.
I think this is a point that gets lost too often. So often it seems that refs give more slack to a player who has already been cautioned. A caution is supposed to change behavior, not give license.
https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-vs-seattle-sounders-fc/details/video/240478 With some these OFRs, it's so obvious that the referee already has made his mind up of the decision before even getting to the monitor. It's so apparent that Chapman wasn't giving a red card here, just by the fact that he barely looks it at. How do you watch this and not see violent conduct? What justification for a yellow card?
Two points relative to what's above. On Penso, it's a good 2CT. I sort of wonder on the first caution whether she lost track of who committed the foul (because there's the challenge that misses and then the challenge from behind that is the one she calls) and the delay in presentation was over sorting that out. That one seems more interesting to me than the second one, which is a nailed on 2CT (unless, probably, you're a World Cup referee). On Chapman, less interested in whether he made his mind up on this decision and more interested in the macro point that it's quite clear some referees are taking into account game management when utilizing OFRs for VC. How does Chapman not go red? Because his feel for the game tells him that given the totality of the incident, yellow for both will work. Fischer did the same thing a couple weeks ago on something that used to be clear VC. The questions become whether or not this is good practice and whether or not all potential VC should be subject to review. Because the ultimate effect is that VARs and CRs, if they are on the same page, can then utilize the system to achieve justice (e.g., matching yellow cards) when that's not a stated point of the VAR system at all. And, of course, they can only achieve justice in scenarios where a red card is plausible, so it's not consistent justice. It's a small thing and it seems to be working right now for certain MLS referees, but it does totally belie the stated point of the VAR system. It's part of the slippery slope skeptics warned about.
Another small (negative) nuance of VAR implementation showed up at the end of the Chicago-Houston match last night. PK taken, PK saved. But the goalkeeper clearly encroached with both feet. The problem is, I gather, ARs are either told or conditioned not to call this anymore. So we have to wait for the VAR to check, recommend the review, and then the CR conducts the review and only then we have the retake. Hopefully PRO and others take note of this. If the AR was free/encouraged to call blatant encroachment, all we'd then need is for the VAR to quickly say "check complete" as the teams are re-setting for the penalty and we'd be good to go. We're talking about saving 90 seconds or so of delay and it's delay that's only created because of an instruction to ARs to not call what they see.
Agreed about the slippery slope. For me it's frustrating, because VAR is being used to micro-analyze penalty decisions and award penalties that are penalties according to the laws of the game, but aren't really in the spirit/feel of the game. If a ball hits a players arm outside of his silhouette from a short distance in the 90th minute and VAR sends that down, Chapman can't really not give it because he doesn't "feel" that it's a penalty at that time and place. I think it's a really bad look and I was hoping VAR would clean up the "look the other way" refereeing when it comes to violent conduct. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...ution-vs-montreal-impact/details/video/239871 Same thing with this. How do you on the field as an AR, view that and come out with yellow to the referee. The ball isn't even in play! It's multiple stamps on a player's achilles. Then you look at it and say it's still a yellow because the game "doesn't need a red right now." It's not 1996 anymore. It's just hard to take seriously.
But maybe it is. It's difficult to say the application of VAR is different than how the game has been called at the FIFA-level for the past 8-10 years. The regression via VAR matches the regression on field insofar as punishing VC and SFP. Right. I know from a systems perspective, it's going a lot smoother now that it's part of the game (particularly in MLS and some other leagues). But the disconnect between viewing nearly ALL handling as 100% objective versus encouraging a ton of latitude on VC/SFP is incomprehensible to me. It's not like fans were demanding that every single handball be adjudicated a second time. People disagreed on debatable decisions, yes. But effectively saying they were no longer debatable didn't make it so. Also, one of my positive hopes for VAR was that it would discourage violent behavior. If violent behavior is caught and punished via VAR every single time, eventually it will diminish. You can't say the same thing about handball offences based on the nuance of "arm above shoulder" and "unnaturally bigger." Handballs are still always going to occur. Yet VAR is deployed consistently on handballs and completely inconsistently on violent play. It's bizarre. Henry's face says it all there. It's the look of a manager who knows his player is about to be sent off. I only wish we got to see the reaction shot after he got away with just the yellow.
Combined withe MLS-unique process of having the R look at the monitor for an objective call like this. Aren't we the only place in the world the R would look at the screen on that call?
Right. I forgot to mention that component because it's so engrained to me now. It's wrong (per IFAB) but I am sort of okay with it. If a referee and AR are looking at encroachment from their perspective and both miss it, I can see how it adds credibility to the new decision for the referee to go see it himself and understand "his error." The idea of a distant eye in the sky ordering a retake for 6-inch encroachment without buy-in from the referee is understandably problematic. But again, if the AR were encouraged to call this on blatant situations, we wouldn't need the OFR either way. I suppose the reluctance is that the AR could get it wrong and then you're in a pretty bad place. But, if that's true, I'm not sure how we got to a point where we can't trust professional ARs to make a decision right in front of them just because we've included cameras as part of officiating.
I disagree about the R viewing these as helping sell it. The pic is what the pic is. IMO any limited help in selling it is more than offset by the additional, pointless time lost. (And it could get bad in KFTM . . . .) And it is part of that slippery slope denying the reality of the minimal delay maximum impact concept. (Were I permitted to make the choice, VAR would not be used on these, but ARs would be expected to call clear violations. That would catch the bad ones that really need to be caught, without taking away great plays because the GK was an inch too far ahead. IMO the game is not improved in any way whatsoever by catching micro-violations--but is improved noticeably if bad violations are called.)
Watched the DC United game yesterday and thought Tori had an excellent game. It almost seemed like she forgot the player who got the red card had already been booked. Off topic, how big is the jump from regional to national referee/PRO ?
Ruídiaz (SEA) has been suspended for one match for Violent Conduct. This means that the DisCo unanimously ruled that the kick out was a red card offense and that PRO agreed that the referee acted in error by issuing just a caution after review.
Earlier in the thread a few of you were discussing the fact that handballs are treated as more of a black and white issue when it comes to var, and that with this kind of VC isn't held to the same standard (in that referees have some discretion with how they deal with the foul given other factors in the game). Does Disco's decision signal that this kind of VC must also become more of a black and white issue as well? I think it'd be better for the game if players were regularly red carded for trying to kick or punch someone, so I'm hoping this signals a change in policy.