2020-2021 UEFA Referee Discussion [R]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Aug 14, 2020.

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  1. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    #76 AremRed, Oct 8, 2020
    Sadly North Macedonia : Kosovo was not included in my cable subscription :(
     
  2. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #77 MassachusettsRef, Oct 9, 2020
    Couple VAR clips from yesterday.

    This one from Bulgaria jarred me, as someone who watches mostly MLS and EPL (where I don't think we've seen this yet). It's a reminder that IFAB/FIFA instructions are that the in-versus-out penalty decision is considered objective and there should not be an OFR. So a penalty just gets magically turned into a DFK. I think MLS fans will be thrown off when this happens for the USMNT and/or in any international tournament.

    https://streamable.com/5a6ytd

    And then this, in Iceland, which is a reminder that MLS officials are (typically) much more efficient with VAR than even the best officials worldwide. Showing five different outputs at the RRA is terrible practice. Plus the use of real speed versus slo-mo is not good here. And then there's just the basic question of whether or not this is a clearly wrong decision not to call a foul or if the VAR is looking for a foul. In short, I don't think this gets called consistently--even with VAR--and that's a huge problem. I suppose Skomina felt himself obligated to call the penalty once at the RRA, but it's a pretty close decision because I can see a lot of referees saying "this isn't obvious." Luckily this didn't affect the result.

    https://streamable.com/w7ywum
     
  3. RedStar91

    RedStar91 Member+

    Sep 7, 2011
    Club:
    FK Crvena Zvezda Beograd
    #78 RedStar91, Oct 9, 2020
    If that's a penalty in the Iceland match, then you will have a penalty kick on every single set piece. Wow.

    While you showed how badly VAR can be applied in the Iceland clip, the Bulgaria clip showed just how much more efficient other federations are when it comes to certain aspects of VAR than MLS.

    You won't have the scene like in MLS of an official running 50 yards to view a screen for a split second and then run another 50 yards to award the decision like what happened in San Jose.

    So looks like UEFA referees are wearing their UEFA match officials badge on these Euro qualifiers which means that apart from World Cup qualifiers (I think) UEFA officials can just put away their FIFA badges while on international duty in Europe.

    Anyone know what badge the officials wear on the international friendlies in Europe? Are they wearing the UEFA badge or their FIFA badge? Netherlands hosted Mexico and I wonder if they wore their UEFA badge or FIFA badge.
     
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  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #79 MassachusettsRef, Oct 9, 2020
    But does it?

    It took the VAR over 90 seconds to arrive at the decision. That's far too long.

    So the time saved on process going over to the monitor is lost via inefficiency in the booth.

    And the Chilowicz example is an extreme--one that was not appreciated by PRO. So I don't think you should use that as the standard.

    Ideal world the VAR is efficient and the in-versus-out is an objective decision that didn't need an OFR. But we're short of that ideal on each end with the two different approaches right now.
     
  5. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #80 RefIADad, Oct 9, 2020
    When I watched Switzerland-Croatia, Bastien and crew wore Adidas and FIFA badges. Not sure about other friendlies.
     
  6. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #81 RefIADad, Oct 9, 2020
    I’m watching the England-Wales match as I type this. The crew in this match is wearing the UEFA Macron kits, and it appears they wore FIFA badges. The badges have blue at the bottom from what I can tell.

    So I think it’s just referee or organizer choice for kits/badges.
     
  7. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #82 MassachusettsRef, Oct 9, 2020
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  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    #83 socal lurker, Oct 9, 2020
    I'm really interested in hearing thoughts here, as I'm honestly not sure what the right call is. I lean towards thinking that at this level, it's not expected to get a call on this kind of clearance, but at the levels I do it's a PK and a caution.
     
  9. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #84 RefIADad, Oct 9, 2020
    Just watched a good portion of this match this afternoon.

    I couldn’t agree more with you. Makkelie was a flat-out bada**. That was a tough match, and he drilled it.
     
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  10. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    #85 AremRed, Oct 10, 2020
    At most levels it's a no call. Generally when I call a foul after a defender "got all ball" or "got the ball first", it has to be an action that is close to reckless.

    In this case I see a normal clearance play, nothing reckless about what the defender does. If anything the attacker's decision to try for this header is more reckless, and dangerous to himself.
     
  11. AremRed

    AremRed Member+

    Sep 23, 2013
    #86 AremRed, Oct 10, 2020
    I watch a fair amount of professional soccer and RARELY see something like this. It's an easily defendable call, and perhaps something we miss often and need to correct.
     
  12. LampLighter

    LampLighter Red Card

    Bugeaters FC
    Apr 13, 2019
    #87 LampLighter, Oct 10, 2020
    This isn't John Terry knocking someone out while trying to clear the ball at least.
     
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  13. Ghastly Officiating

    Ghastly Officiating Member

    Tottenham Hotspur
    United States
    Oct 12, 2017
    #88 Ghastly Officiating, Oct 13, 2020
    Pretty straightforward SPA second caution in stoppage time of Germany - Switzerland but I still wasn’t expecting it to actually be given since there were ~10 seconds left of stoppage time. Well done.
     
  14. greek ref

    greek ref Member

    Feb 27, 2013
    Club:
    Panathinaikos Athens
    Nat'l Team:
    Greece
    #89 greek ref, Oct 18, 2020
    UCL Matchday 1

    Tuesday Matches

    Zenit - Club Brugge: Bastien (FRA)
    Dynamo Kyiv - Juventus: Hategan (ROU)
    Rennais - Krasnodar: Sidiropoulos (GRE)
    Chelsea - Seville: Massa (ITA)
    Lazio - Borussia: Turpin (FRA)
    Barcelona - Ferencvaros: Schärer (SUI)
    PSG - Man. United: Mateu Lahoz (ESP)
    Leipzig - Basaksehir: Gil Manzano (ESP)
     
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  15. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #90 balu, Oct 19, 2020
    Wednesday matches

    Salzburg - Lokomotiv Moscow: GOZUBUYUK (NED)
    Bayern - Atletico Madrid: OLIVER (ENG)
    Real Madrid - Shakhtar: JOVANOVIC (SRB)
    Inter Milan - Moenchengladbach: KUIPERS (NED)
    Olympiacos - Marseille: ORSATO (ITA)
    Man City - Porto: TREIMANIS (LVA)
    Ajax - Liverpool: BRYCH (GER)
    Midtjylland - Atalanta: DIAS SOARES (POR)
     
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  16. Orange14

    Orange14 Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 27, 2007
    Bethesda, MD
    Club:
    AFC Ajax
    Nat'l Team:
    Netherlands
    #91 Orange14, Oct 19, 2020
    Good to see him get a CL match. Three top CRs in the Dutch league now!!!
     
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  17. RefIADad

    RefIADad Member+

    United States
    Aug 18, 2017
    Des Moines, IA
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #92 RefIADad, Oct 19, 2020
    He's a good official. Always seems to do a solid job on the matches I watch him lead.

    I'm really interested to see how Michael Oliver responds after the events of the weekend. He has what is probably the marquee match of the first matchday, with honorable mentions to Ajax-Liverpool and maybe Lazio-Dortmund.
     
  18. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #93 Pierre Head, Oct 19, 2020
    I wonder who has the matches in the top 6? ;)

    PH
     
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  19. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #94 balu, Oct 20, 2020
    Selected EL appointments

    Young Boys - Roma: DEL CERRO GRANDE (ESP)
    Rapid Wien - Arsenal: KRALOVEC (CZE)
    Leverkusen - Nice: JOVIC (CRO)
    PSV - Granada: ZWAYER (GER)
    Napoli - AZ Alkmaar: STEFANSKI (POL)
    Braga - AEK Athens: BUQUET (FRA)
    Leicester - Zorya Luhansk: FRAPPART (FRA)
    Celtic - Milan: JUG (SVN)
    Wolfsberger - CSKA Moscow: STEGEMANN (GER)
    Dinamo Zagreb - Feyenoord: GESTRANIUS (FIN)
    Hoffenheim - Red Star Belgrade: HERNANDEZ HERNANDEZ (ESP)

    Frappart with a chance to shine. Kralovec reunited with Arsenal 7 years after his pedantic performance at the Allianz Arena in the UCL.
     
  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #95 MassachusettsRef, Oct 20, 2020
    Oliver also has Rosetti observing him, so I don't think he can (nor will) be concerned about anything from this past weekend. This seems like a threshold test for whether or not he can be in the mix as a second English referee for EURO 2020.
     
  21. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #96 balu, Oct 20, 2020
    "Big Three" would be more appropriate for the Eredivisie - although last season AZ Alkmaar sprang a surprise. (By the way, I agree with using "Big Six" instead of "Top six" for the EPL and will use it from now on.)

    Here are the assignments for Big Three + AZ Alkmaar for last season:

    PSV - Ajax: Makkelie
    Feyenoord - AZ: Kamphuis
    Ajax - Feyenoord: Gözübüyük
    PSV - AZ: van Boekel
    AZ - Ajax: Makkelie
    Feyenoord - PSV: Nijhuis
    Ajax - PSV: Kuipers
    PSV - Feyenoord: Higler
    Ajax - AZ: Gözübüyük

    The last match between Ajax and AZ was an especially important one considering title implications at the time.
     
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  22. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    #97 Mikael_Referee, Oct 20, 2020
    To be honest, I am not Gözübüyük's biggest fan. His presence on the pitch is too arrogant and he cannot use his manner to work co-operatively with the players, nor calm them down. Personally, I don't see him as a future UEFA Elite (level) referee.
     
  23. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #98 Pierre Head, Oct 20, 2020
    Great. Although I would prefer a different realistic metric based on current situations.
    But I realize that requires more thought than just selecting six clubs, which can be done by a computer program.


    I was referring to the Euro competitions, since this is the Euro thread.
    I don't care about Dutch football let alone starting another "Big X" club statistic.

    PH
     
  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #99 MassachusettsRef, Oct 20, 2020
    Penalty retake for goalkeeper encroachment via VAR in Paris. Was about 2-3 inches off, I'd say. Re-take converted.

    Despite the call being 100% out of the hands of the referee, it certainly doesn't prevent the dissent from big personalities. I know what the powers that be are trying to do here, but it really ties the hands of referees and doesn't help them; it creates management problems both in the moment and for later.
     
  25. ManiacalClown

    ManiacalClown Member+

    Jun 27, 2003
    South Jersey
    Club:
    Chicago Fire
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #100 ManiacalClown, Oct 20, 2020
    Body language on the pitch makes it seem like the AR may have at least been suspicious of the encroachment. Maybe I'm seeing things.
     
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