2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

chwmy · Nov 22, 2020

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

It doesn’t mean a duty of the AR has passed to the VAR.
Click to expand...

I do wonder if there is an erosion tho. In the arsenal Leeds game Anthony Taylor , who I feel had a dip in form that coincided with the advent of var, was pretty personality-less through the red card administration and really wasn’t any more present than usual for the rest of the game. I wonder if VAR, in addition to the inconsistency and frustration that it brought, is degrading the referee team mindset, stealing their mojo, Austin powers style.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 22, 2020

chwmy said: ↑

I do wonder if there is an erosion tho. In the arsenal Leeds game Anthony Taylor , who I feel had a dip in form that coincided with the advent of var, was pretty personality-less through the red card administration and really wasn’t any more present than usual for the rest of the game. I wonder if VAR, in addition to the inconsistency and frustration that it brought, is degrading the referee team mindset, stealing their mojo, Austin powers style.
Click to expand...

I will readily buy the argument that the advent of VAR has hurt many top-level referees. It's changed the face of match and player management and I think it's stripped certain referees of visual confidence.

But my point here is that the duty to report seen misconduct still exists for the AR. The AR is still assessed on his on-field decision. I don't know exactly how the EPL works, but in MLS if an AR misses an "expected" misconduct decision that would fall to him instead of the referee, he is still docked points even if the VAR saves the team overall. So in this situation, where the AR did not flag and it does not appear he gave Taylor actionable information, it seems safe to conclude that he missed the severity of the incident and consequently wouldn't have got this decision correct if VAR didn't exist.

mathguy ref · Nov 22, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

But have you been an AR or linesman in a professional match?

PH
Click to expand...

My comment has nothing to do with their ability to see it. It’s more about the sheer cynicism of the PL in general.

Pierre Head · Nov 23, 2020

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

I will readily buy the argument that the advent of VAR has hurt many top-level referees. It's changed the face of match and player management and I think it's stripped certain referees of visual confidence.

But my point here is that the duty to report seen misconduct still exists for the AR. The AR is still assessed on his on-field decision. I don't know exactly how the EPL works, but in MLS if an AR misses an "expected" misconduct decision that would fall to him instead of the referee, he is still docked points even if the VAR saves the team overall. So in this situation, where the AR did not flag and it does not appear he gave Taylor actionable information, it seems safe to conclude that he missed the severity of the incident and consequently wouldn't have got this decision correct if VAR didn't exist.
Click to expand...

Don't all red card decisions go to VAR anyway now? The mechanics are different in this era than in the pre-VAR days. Also there is the headset communication in play. Maybe the AR told the CR and, after the VAR saw it, the VAR told the CR to take a look at the monitor.
My point was that this was so blatant, and certainly in the vision of the AR who would/should have been looking directly across the pitch in front of him being in line with the 2LO. Even in pre-radio and VAR days, the AR did not always signal with the flag for some incidents. There were more subtle (hidden) means of communication, and the referee would go to the AR for a talk and get the info that way. So this would in all likelihood have been given back then IMO. Whether this particular AR did anything is unknown, but with VAR, he may not need to and he knows that, along the lines that chwmy mentioned.

PH

Pierre Head · Nov 23, 2020

mathguy ref said: ↑

My comment has nothing to do with their ability to see it. It’s more about the sheer cynicism of the PL in general.
Click to expand...

Well, I can't disagree with that point.

PH

MassachusettsRef · Nov 23, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

Don't all red card decisions go to VAR anyway now? The mechanics are different in this era than in the pre-VAR days.
Click to expand...

Yes to the question (though defining or understanding what "go to" means is important), but the statement--at least pursuant to this discussion--is incorrect.

The VAR checks all red card decisions and potential red card decisions. If the VAR believes a shown red card is "clearly wrong," then he recommends a review to the referee. If the VAR believes not showing a red card is "clearly wrong" or that a "missed serious incident" could result in a red card, they also are obligated to recommend a review.

What is important to remember, however, is that the VAR is always checking against and, consequently, making his recommendation based off the on-field decision. It is never acceptable for the referee to wait for the VAR to tell him what to do before making a decision (the only partial caveat to that would be a case of imminent mistaken identity where the referee doesn't know who to card, but even then technically the referee is supposed to issue the card and then have it corrected if need be).

In other words, if a card is NOT shown on the field before an OFR occurs for a situation like this, that means none of the on-field officials have "red card" as the decision. The on-field decision, in consultation with the AR if necessary, must be made like normal. THEN the VAR checks the veracity of that decision. In this situation, the on-field decision was "no misconduct."

That's why I have been stressing that the following is an incorrect assessment:

Whether this particular AR did anything is unknown, but with VAR, he may not need to and he knows that, along the lines that chwmy mentioned.
Click to expand...

Unless the AR deviated from protocol or Taylor chose to ignore his advice, we actually do know that the AR did not recommend a red card. Because if he had recommended a red card, the red card would have been shown, the VAR would have checked the veracity of the decision, and no OFR would have occurred. It would have simply been "check complete" verbally from VAR to Taylor and that would have been the end of it.

In this case, the on-field decision was "no misconduct." Then the VAR checked and saw that such a decision was wrong. That means both Taylor (obviously) and the AR (less obvious based on line of sight) missed the severity of this incident and did not judge it appropriately in real-time. To the extent this was an "expected" call for an AR in the EPL, he would consequently be docked on his assessment for that.

Pierre Head · Nov 23, 2020

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Yes to the question (though defining or understanding what "go to" means is important), but the statement--at least pursuant to this discussion--is incorrect.

The VAR checks all red card decisions and potential red card decisions. If the VAR believes a shown red card is "clearly wrong," then he recommends a review to the referee. If the VAR believes not showing a red card is "clearly wrong" or that a "missed serious incident" could result in a red card, they also are obligated to recommend a review.

What is important to remember, however, is that the VAR is always checking against and, consequently, making his recommendation based off the on-field decision. It is never acceptable for the referee to wait for the VAR to tell him what to do before making a decision (the only partial caveat to that would be a case of imminent mistaken identity where the referee doesn't know who to card, but even then technically the referee is supposed to issue the card and then have it corrected if need be).

In other words, if a card is NOT shown on the field before an OFR occurs for a situation like this, that means none of the on-field officials have "red card" as the decision. The on-field decision, in consultation with the AR if necessary, must be made like normal. THEN the VAR checks the veracity of that decision. In this situation, the on-field decision was "no misconduct."

That's why I have been stressing that the following is an incorrect assessment:
Unless the AR deviated from protocol or Taylor chose to ignore his advice, we actually do know that the AR did not recommend a red card. Because if he had recommended a red card, the red card would have been shown, the VAR would have checked the veracity of the decision, and no OFR would have occurred. It would have simply been "check complete" verbally from VAR to Taylor and that would have been the end of it.

In this case, the on-field decision was "no misconduct." Then the VAR checked and saw that such a decision was wrong. That means both Taylor (obviously) and the AR (less obvious based on line of sight) missed the severity of this incident and did not judge it appropriately in real-time. To the extent this was an "expected" call for an AR in the EPL, he would consequently be docked on his assessment for that.
Click to expand...

"go to" means checked by or reviewed by in this context. I didn't run my post by my lawyer or my HS English teacher.
What else could be interpreted by use of "go to?"

All of this pertains to this particular match. If what you say is correct, and this AR missed the incident,
then this AR was really delinquent in his duty. He definitely should have seen it from his position.

But at the risk of repetition, my original point was entirely what I felt would have happened pre-VAR days when there were good ARs/linesmen!

PH

MassachusettsRef · Nov 23, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

"go to" means checked by or reviewed by in this context. I didn't run my post by my lawyer or my HS English teacher.
What else could be interpreted by use of "go to?"
Click to expand...

I don't understand why you feel the need to respond like this. It wasn't an attack. Many people don't understand how VAR operates. It's very clear from your posts here that you at least are not aware how it operates in regards to what is expected of an AR (or 4th) in off-the-ball misconduct situations. So, yes, defining "go to" is important because it sets the parameters for when and how the VAR intecedes.

Some people think that "go to" means the VAR is making every red card decision. So disabusing anyone of the notion that VAR would intervene prior to a decision being made and communicated on the field is important. That's why I spent time in my post defining exactly what "goes to" the VAR for intervention.

"Go to" is not synonymous with "delegated." And, before you accuse me of accusing you of believing so, that's not what I was doing. I added it as a parenthetical because I truly believe it is important for people who are still learning the basics of VAR.

All of this pertains to this particular match. If what you say is correct, and this AR missed the incident, then this AR was really delinquent in his duty. He definitely should have seen it from his position.
Click to expand...

What I am saying is correct. And that's why I'm saying the AR would be docked points if the PGMOL concurs with the assessment that he should be expected to get this without VAR intervention.

But at the risk of repetition, my point was entirely what I felt would have happened pre-VAR days when there were good ARs/linesmen!
Click to expand...

To be fair, it's clear that wasn't entirely your point as written. You said the AR would "most likely have" spotted this without VAR and that the AR "may not need to [do anything] and he knows that..." All I have been trying to say from my first post on this topic is that an AR knows the exact opposite of what you suggested. He is obligated to intervene when he sees misconduct and does not wait for or rely upon VAR as insurance.

Pierre Head · Nov 23, 2020

Am I an expert in all aspects of VR? Certainly not, and I have never claimed to be so.
Neither am I a fan-boy of it. It clearly has many flaws, both in theory and application.
I just see what is being done (or not done) in games with a VAR and continually am bewildered
and amazed.
ARs are told not to flag for certain offside situations, but to wait for the VAR to make the call if needed,
but don't wait for the VAR in cases of OTB misconduct. (I probably have misunderstood this also!)

I guess I am saddened that this incident was not seen by the AR in a professional match and needed the VAR to bail him out.
In a way your analysis is more critical of the AR than mine was.
Taylor clearly was facing away from the incident and could not see it and was blameless.
Maybe it is just symptomatic of the obvious decline in the standard of officiating in the EPL, which the advent of VR
has made worse.

At least in this case the intervention of the VAR was a positive for the game, which is certainly not the case for many of them,
such as the PK incidents this past weekend and the Bamforth and Mane offside decisions in previous weeks, among numerous others.

PH

Thezzaruz · Nov 23, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

ARs are told not to flag for certain offside situations, but to wait for the VAR to make the call if needed,
but don't wait for the VAR in cases of OTB misconduct. (I probably have misunderstood this also!)
Click to expand...

No, that's not what they are told. Just as for all other incidents they should make their decision on the field independent of VAR.

What they are told is to hold the flag (if they decide there was an offense) until the situation has played out. But they should still make a decision just as they should before VAR.

Pierre Head · Nov 23, 2020

Thezzaruz said: ↑

No, that's not what they are told. Just as for all other incidents they should make their decision on the field independent of VAR.

What they are told is to hold the flag (if they decide there was an offense) until the situation has played out. But they should still make a decision just as they should before VAR.
Click to expand...

Just another example of why the whole thing is totally ridiculous and doesn't really benefit the game.

PH

SCV-Ref · Nov 23, 2020

Have a look at this screen shot.
I don't understand, at the elite level, when such precision is expected from the kick taker, that nobody on the team asks the referee to check his 10 yards. This is 8...at best.... and in an area where there are so many markings on the field....and the grass cuts are 6 yards.
Oh well....at least the offsides are accurate down to the shoelace or armpit.

rh89 · Nov 24, 2020

SCV-Ref said: ↑

View attachment 186115 Have a look at this screen shot.
I don't understand, at the elite level, when such precision is expected from the kick taker, that nobody on the team asks the referee to check his 10 yards. This is 8...at best.... and in an area where there are so many markings on the field....and the grass cuts are 6 yards.
Oh well....at least the offsides are accurate down to the shoelace or armpit.
Click to expand...

I'd like some of what you're smoking.

This is pretty close to 10. Here's how I know. Compare to the penalty spot and the top of the arc on the box. That would be 10 yards. The players are about one yard upfield from the penalty spot. The ball is slightly downfield from the top of the arc, I would say less than 1 yard, but sure, I'll be generous and give it the full 1. Now we know we're at a minimum 8 yards vertical. Now, lets look at horizontal. The ball is set about the middle of its 6-yard marking. Judging by the keeper's position, the center of the net is about direct with the player rightmost to us on the line. He's about in the middle of his 6 yard marking. So we're looking at a 4 yard (conservative) to 6 yard (liberal) horizontal difference. Break out the pythagorem theorem and... if it's 4 yards horizontal, the hypotenuse is ~9yards. If it's 6 yards, then the hypotenuse is... exactly 10 yards. So, this is somewhere between 9 and 10 yards, and that's with conservative placement estimates.

SCV-Ref · Nov 24, 2020

rh89 said: ↑

I'd like some of what you're smoking.

This is pretty close to 10. Here's how I know. Compare to the penalty spot and the top of the arc on the box. That would be 10 yards. The players are about one yard upfield from the penalty spot. The ball is slightly downfield from the top of the arc, I would say less than 1 yard, but sure, I'll be generous and give it the full 1. Now we know we're at a minimum 8 yards vertical. Now, lets look at horizontal. The ball is set about the middle of its 6-yard marking. Judging by the keeper's position, the center of the net is about direct with the player rightmost to us on the line. He's about in the middle of his 6 yard marking. So we're looking at a 4 yard (conservative) to 6 yard (liberal) horizontal difference. Break out the pythagorem theorem and... if it's 4 yards horizontal, the hypotenuse is ~9yards. If it's 6 yards, then the hypotenuse is... exactly 10 yards. So, this is somewhere between 9 and 10 yards, and that's with conservative placement estimates.
Click to expand...

I respectfully disagree. All the grass cuts (at the end of the field) are at 6 yards, so PK Spot is 9 yds from the ball and the players nearest the ball are at least a yard in front of the spot.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 24, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

In a way your analysis is more critical of the AR than mine was.
Click to expand...

Absolutely!

MassachusettsRef · Nov 24, 2020

SCV-Ref said: ↑

View attachment 186115 Have a look at this screen shot.
I don't understand, at the elite level, when such precision is expected from the kick taker, that nobody on the team asks the referee to check his 10 yards. This is 8...at best.... and in an area where there are so many markings on the field....and the grass cuts are 6 yards.
Oh well....at least the offsides are accurate down to the shoelace or armpit.
Click to expand...

I've had complaints like this before and one very recently (I can't remember what event, but it was in the last couple weeks when a referee got around 7 yards on an attacking DFK).

That said... I am not sure I can share your outrage here. The defender on the far left of the wall has his heels right near or on the cut of the grass that's even with the penalty area. And if you compare the position of the ball to the white defender in the penalty arc, it's clear that it is further upfield than him. So that means the ball is nearly 4 yards outside the area (short of that, yes, but closer to 4 than 3). I think ball to defender on the left is 9.5 yards at worst. The angle of the rest of the wall probably makes it around 9, maybe slightly under.

Not great. And, yes, definitely short of 10. But not egregious in my opinion.

Pierre Head · Nov 24, 2020

It seems that the attackers are not complaining about the position of the defenders, which is a good clue.
I didn't see this match, but did the referee not pace out the 10 yds and put the spray down? It is not visible
in the photo, and could have faded but usually lasts as long as it takes to complete the FK.

One other point: some of these DFK experts don't mind a slightly closer wall because this gives more
distance behind it for the ball to dip into the goal.

PH

balu · Nov 24, 2020

Matchweek 10

Crystal Palace - Newcastle
Referee: Graham Scott. Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Simon Long. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Eddie Smart.

Brighton - Liverpool
Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Kevin Friend. Assistant VAR: Simon Beck.

Man City - Burnley
Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Richard West, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Robert Jones. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger.

Everton - Leeds
Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Dan Cook, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts.

West Brom - Sheffield
Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin.

Southampton - Man Utd
Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Timothy Wood.

Chelsea - Tottenham
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Ian Hussin. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Arsenal - Wolves
Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.

Leicester - Fulham
Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Derek Eaton, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

West Ham - Aston Villa
Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Neil Davies, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Tierney for the big London derby as third hosts first. Mason, Moss, and Oliver in charge of struggling Big Six teams.

balu · Nov 24, 2020

"Big Six" matches:

Arsenal - Liverpool (Community Shield): Marriner
Chelsea - Liverpool: Tierney
Liverpool - Arsenal: Pawson
Tottenham - Chelsea (Carabao Cup): Mason
Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Friend
Man Utd - Tottenham: Taylor
Man City - Arsenal: Kavanagh
Man Utd - Chelsea: Atkinson
Man Utd - Arsenal: Dean
Man City - Liverpool: Pawson
Tottenham - Man City: Dean
Chelsea - Tottenham: Tierney

Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

Dean: 2
Pawson: 2
Tierney: 2
Atkinson: 1
Kavanagh: 1
Taylor: 1

Rufusabc · Nov 24, 2020

balu said: ↑

Matchweek 10

Crystal Palace - Newcastle
Referee: Graham Scott. Assistants: Peter Kirkup, Simon Long. Fourth official: Michael Salisbury. VAR: Jarred Gillett. Assistant VAR: Eddie Smart.

Brighton - Liverpool
Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Adam Nunn. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Kevin Friend. Assistant VAR: Simon Beck.

Man City - Burnley
Referee: Lee Mason. Assistants: Richard West, Adrian Holmes. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Robert Jones. Assistant VAR: Scott Ledger.

Everton - Leeds
Referee: Chris Kavanagh. Assistants: Dan Cook, Constantine Hatzidakis. Fourth official: Darren England. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Lee Betts.

West Brom - Sheffield
Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Darren Cann, Mark Scholes. Fourth official: Gavin Ward. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Ian Hussin.

Southampton - Man Utd
Referee: Jonathan Moss. Assistants: Marc Perry, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Graham Scott. VAR: Martin Atkinson. Assistant VAR: Timothy Wood.

Chelsea - Tottenham
Referee: Paul Tierney. Assistants: Lee Betts, Ian Hussin. Fourth official: Mike Dean. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Arsenal - Wolves
Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: David Coote. VAR: Andre Marriner. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.

Leicester - Fulham
Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Derek Eaton, Harry Lennard. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Darren England. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

West Ham - Aston Villa
Referee: Peter Bankes. Assistants: Neil Davies, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Stuart Attwell. Assistant VAR: Stephen Child.

Tierney for the big London derby as third hosts first. Mason, Moss, and Oliver in charge of struggling Big Six teams.
Click to expand...

Jarred Gillett who is the VAR for the first match of Week 10 is Australian who according to wikipedia “Gillett joined Select Group 2 in England at the start of the 2019/20 season after taking up a post-doctoral research position at Liverpool John Moores University.”

He has taken charge of 10 matches so far this season in the Championship and lower leagues and has refereed in many different countries in his career.

Thezzaruz · Nov 24, 2020

Pierre Head said: ↑

Just another example of why the whole thing is totally ridiculous and doesn't really benefit the game.

PH
Click to expand...

Not sure I understand your criticism here tbh. The current procedure have the AR making the decision and VAR stepping in if need be, not sure how else you'd want to do it.

RefIADad · Nov 28, 2020

BRI-LIV: Mane’s waved off goal should be the poster child for how VAR should be used. An offside that is a definite error (but sometimes a tough one to spot on a free kick with a somewhat high line), and it was clearly evident on a replay without lines. The review took less than a minute from goal to overturn.

EDIT-and then a second good overturn. Looks like at least for one game, PGMOL learned its lesson from the Villa mess up a couple of weeks ago.

chwmy · Nov 28, 2020

Neat bit of AR’ing in MC BUR min 25, cross comes in for MC no offside but two MC go for the header and ball pings off of both heads and ends up in the goal, except the Jesus, who touched the ball second, was now offside from the header a microsecond before.

I thought it was great concentration to be certain as to which MC player had the first touch, refind the offside line quickly after a cross, and to realize that offside could occur by two onside players going for the same ball.

MassachusettsRef · Nov 28, 2020

Um, so what about Brighton’s penalty?

Rufusabc · Nov 28, 2020

MassachusettsRef said: ↑

Um, so what about Brighton’s penalty?
Click to expand...

Klopp thought it was a penalty, several Brighton players thought it wasn’t. I’m not sure if it is more than a 50/50 with both players swinging at it.