2020-2021 England Referee Appointments (EPL+) [Rs]

Discussion in 'Referee' started by MassachusettsRef, Aug 28, 2020.

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  1. yossarian

    yossarian Moderator
    Staff Member

    Jun 16, 1999
    Big City Blinking
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #351 yossarian, Oct 26, 2020
    Gotcha. Hadn't watched the first link.
     
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  2. Thezzaruz

    Thezzaruz Member+

    Jun 20, 2011
    Club:
    Arsenal FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Sweden
    #352 Thezzaruz, Oct 27, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 27, 2020
    Haven't got a clip but these stills shows some of it. Schmeichel obviously knows Xhaka is there but I have a hard time seeing any offence. This is a call I'd expect from a CR/AR that isn't used to each other/working together but in a game with VAR not sure it should be called.


    201025 Arsenal Offside v Leicester 4.png

    201025 Arsenal Offside v Leicester 3.png

    201025 Arsenal Offside v Leicester 2.png
     
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  3. sulfur

    sulfur Member+

    Oct 22, 2007
    Ontario, Canada
    #353 sulfur, Oct 27, 2020
    Video of the discussion at HT.

    The behind-the-goal angle is near the start, and there's a VR segment at the end...

    https://streamable.com/ik5tvk
     
  4. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #354 MassachusettsRef, Oct 27, 2020
    Yeah, this is what I was waiting for. Based on that evidence, I don't think this is offside.

    Schmeichel goes to his right generally while Xhaka goes to his left. I don't see how you can say the action had an impact on Schmeichel's ability to play the ball. This angle seems to be exculpatory.
     
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  5. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #355 balu, Oct 28, 2020
    Matchweek 7

    Wolves - Crystal Palace
    Referee: Martin Atkinson. Assistants: Lee Betts, James Mainwaring. Fourth official: John Brooks. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Sheffield - Man City
    Referee: Michael Oliver. Assistants: Stuart Burt, Simon Bennett. Fourth official: Peter Bankes. VAR: Paul Tierney. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Burnley - Chelsea
    Referee: David Coote. Assistants: Gary Beswick, Nick Hopton. Fourth official: Jonathan Moss. VAR: Anthony Taylor. Assistant VAR: Andy Halliday.

    Liverpool - West Ham
    Referee: Kevin Friend. Assistants: Simon Beck, Eddie Smart. Fourth official: Craig Pawson. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Sian Massey-Ellis.

    Aston Villa - Southampton
    Referee: Darren England. Assistants: Adam Nunn, Dan Cook. Fourth official: Michael Oliver. VAR: Chris Kavanagh. Assistant VAR: Mark Scholes.

    Newcastle - Everton
    Referee: Stuart Attwell. Assistants: Constantine Hatzidakis, Marc Perry. Fourth official: Martin Atkinson. VAR: Craig Pawson. Assistant VAR: Darren Cann.

    Man Utd - Arsenal
    Referee: Mike Dean. Assistants: Ian Hussin, Dan Robathan. Fourth official: Anthony Taylor. VAR: Peter Bankes. Assistant VAR: Neil Davies.

    Tottenham - Brighton
    Referee: Graham Scott. Assistants: Simon Long, Tim Wood. Fourth official: Simon Hooper. VAR: Jonathan Moss. Assistant VAR: Nick Hopton.

    Fulham - West Brom
    Referee: Simon Hooper. Assistants: Derek Eaton, Neil Davies. Fourth official: Andy Madley. VAR: Kevin Friend. Assistant VAR: Simon Beck.

    Leeds - Leicester
    Referee: Andre Marriner. Assistants: Scott Ledger, Richard West. Fourth official: Robert Jones. VAR: Lee Mason. Assistant VAR: Simon Bennett.

    Dean with the same matchup he refereed 11 years ago that famously handed Man Utd the title. Oliver and Coote with interesting matches. England in action.
     
  6. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #356 balu, Oct 28, 2020
    "Big Six" matches:

    Arsenal - Liverpool (Community Shield): Marriner
    Chelsea - Liverpool: Tierney
    Liverpool - Arsenal: Pawson
    Tottenham - Chelsea (Carabao Cup): Mason
    Liverpool - Arsenal (Carabao Cup): Friend
    Man Utd - Tottenham: Taylor
    Man City - Arsenal: Kavanagh
    Man Utd - Chelsea: Atkinson
    Man Utd - Arsenal: Dean

    Distribution of these matches in the EPL:

    Atkinson: 1
    Dean: 1
    Kavanagh: 1
    Pawson: 1
    Taylor: 1
    Tierney: 1

    Amazingly, no one has refereed more than one of these matches, even including non-EPL matches and the unusually big Merseyside derby this year (handled by Oliver).
     
  7. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #357 Pierre Head, Oct 28, 2020
    Maybe because they are not the most significant matches each week, so the top guys need to be on other games.
    Also the absence of fans is a factor. Not the same level of tension in these matches anymore.

    PH
     
  8. socal lurker

    socal lurker Member+

    May 30, 2009
    #358 socal lurker, Oct 28, 2020
    What about impeding? Tough to tell when the ball is kicked, but X moves into the GK as the GK first starts to move before moving away from him.

    I'm persuaded that the better call here is not OS as Law 11 is currently written. But I'm not persuaded that this is the kind of injustice VAR is designed to fix or that it is inconsistent with the SOTG for it to be OS. I'll confess as a former GK I can be biased toward protecting GKs, but I just don't have a lot of sympathy for an attacker who is a position solely for the purpose of messing with the GK ending up getting called for OS because the R thinks he messed with the GK.
     
  9. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #359 MassachusettsRef, Oct 28, 2020
    While it may not be (and almost certainly is not) the type of injustice that VAR was allegedly introduced for, I do think it's a clearly wrong decision per the Laws and have little doubt it would have been overturned in, say, MLS.

    Look at it another way. We have denied goals for offside due to attackers being in OSP by several millimeters at best. Surely, when we are taking goals off the board for that we can also use the available technology to award a goal when a subjective offside decision appears to be clearly wrong on video.
     
  10. frankieboylampard

    frankieboylampard Member+

    Mar 7, 2016
    USA
    Club:
    Chelsea FC
    Nat'l Team:
    Spain
    #360 frankieboylampard, Oct 28, 2020

    I think this match is a way bigger match then is looked at on paper/history. AVL is sitting in 3rd 1 point away from Everton and Liverpool from first place. And Southampton can jump to 1st place if they win. They’re sitting at 7th.
     
  11. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #361 MassachusettsRef, Oct 28, 2020
    The exact same argument can be made for Leicester v Leeds.

    And Fulham v WBA is one that I think people will look back on as a key moment in the relegation battle (unless, of course, both get relegated).

    The reality is that up is down and left is right at the moment. And it's early in the season. And finding exactly who that next guard is (as Atkinson and Dean move closer to retirement and Oliver and Taylor cement their statuses) is an ongoing project. So I don't think it's all that surprising to see all sorts of referees on all sorts of different matches. Short of Liverpool-Man United, Liverpool-Man City and Man United-Man City (where I think one of the top four referees mentioned above still always seem the most likely), assignments are going to be wide open for a little bit.
     
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  12. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #362 Pierre Head, Oct 28, 2020
    Maybe there will just be a normal distribution of your big six games this season, about 2 for each referee, given that some more teams are apparently more competitive than before.

    I neglected to mention this in my previous comment, but all Merseyside derbies are big, regardless of league positions. There is no such thing as an "unusually" big Merseyside derby, even when it was the FA Cup Final!

    PH
     
  13. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #363 balu, Oct 28, 2020
    I find the continuation of this "big game" debate fascinating. Last season I posted the same thing and no one bothered to argue :)
     
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  14. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #364 MassachusettsRef, Oct 28, 2020
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2020
    So this is from a UCL match today but is comically sad relative to EPL officiating so I'm posting here.

    For anyone that watched Manchester United v Chelsea this past weekend, remember that Maguire bear hug that went uncalled? As a reminder--and for those that didn't watch--Maguire wrapped the Chelsea attacker with both arms and just held him while the cross came in. And the cross was targeting the attacker and would have reached him otherwise. No OFR recommended. Nothing more than a cursory check from the VAR based on how quickly play continued at the next stoppage. Why do I bring that up? Well, watch 2:11 below:



    I kid you not: same VAR, Stuart Attwell, in both situations. Four days apart, two different competitions, same VAR, two almost carbon copies (with the only real difference being that the EPL one was objectively worse because the attacker in question would have received the ball, where that was highly doubtful today). And two totally different decisions from the VAR in question. If ever there was evidence that English VARs are operating from two different playbooks and set of standards, this is it. The only alternative is that Attwell butchered the call over the weekend and made a huge mistake (which, I think he obviously did--the question is whether or not the PGMOL thinks that).

    This should be completely unacceptable. It's one thing if there are slightly varying degrees of interpretation on SFP from league to league or something alone those lines. But to use VAR to call certain fouls as fouls in one competition but to not use it in another when VAR is all about getting objectively wrong decisions correct... I'm at a loss. All we've done is elevate controversial decisions from a single layer of decision-making and added a second possible level (and, I suppose a third one if the referee then disagrees with the VAR). Oh, and we made some non-controversial decisions controversial.

    EDIT: the Chelsea penalty shout, for reference:

     
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  15. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #365 Pierre Head, Oct 28, 2020
    Things change from season to season. People have different points of view.
    It would be very boring if everyone agreed about everything, wouldn't it?
    That is what this board is all about, after all. :)

    PH
     
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  16. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #366 balu, Oct 29, 2020
    Dean is now 52. Has there been a referee in the EPL older than this, or is it yet another record for the man who has led 512 EPL matches and produced the red card 105 times?

    Atkinson is 49. Even if he continues until Dean's current age, that's three more years, which is a long time.
     
  17. Mikael_Referee

    Mikael_Referee Member+

    Jun 16, 2019
    England
    #367 Mikael_Referee, Oct 29, 2020
    I think this to think about it too unilaterally - it is possible to impede a player other than the goalkeeper. The Leicester defender (who is just to the left of the circle in the last image) is clearly impacted by the offside attacker's movement; it seems highly likely he would stop the ball going in were it not for being put off by the offside Arsenal player. So I think offside is the correct theoretical solution here.

    What happened in reality - VAR team probably experienced confirmation bias as the first angles seemed to portray this as an archetypal impeding the goalkeeper situation.

    Without doubt a highly interesting classroom example!
     
  18. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #368 Pierre Head, Oct 29, 2020
    Not totally surprised though.
    To paraphrase Forrest Gump's mother: "Attwell is like a box of chocolates"
    Ever since that phantom goal, he has often seemed very inconsistent to me, difficult to predict
    what decision he is likely to make.
    I realize you are talking about VAR problems, but the other point here is why the referees in both cases did not award penalties in the first place.
    And to open up another can of worms, would an AAR have made any difference?

    PH
     
  19. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #369 MassachusettsRef, Oct 29, 2020
    Roger East turned 54 in the 2018-19 season and had a match that May, so at the very least he was older.

    Phil Dowd turned 53 during the 2015-16 season and was still active, but missed it due to injury. So I guess technically "yes," but practically "no" on Dowd.

    I'm not sure if those are the two oldest ever for EPL, though. I'm almost sure there were older officials in the top-flight prior to the EPL, but just not sure about the EPL era.
     
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  20. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #370 MassachusettsRef, Oct 29, 2020
    I really think you're holding something from nearly a decade ago against him unfairly. No English referee is blowing me away right now, but Attwell has been very good relatively speaking among the English FIFA referees (after Taylor and Oliver, of course).

    In the EPL situation, I agree. The ball is targeting the player fouled and--barring some visual obstruction--I don't know how the referee looks at that and doesn't make the call. In the UCL situation, the foul is well off-the-ball in a crowded penalty area. So while the miss isn't ideal, I can understand it; that's the sort of grab in the penalty area that has gone uncalled for quite some time.

    And of course therein lies another irony. VAR was used to call something in UCL that traditionally has been missed while it was not used to call something that should always be called. Kind of turns the definition of "clearly wrong" completely on its head.

    The answer has to be a firm "maybe," right? It depends on personnel and depends on what they are looking at and depends (certainly in the EPL situation, where the foul was on the ball) how confident the referee would be in his "no penalty" decision. The alleged virtue of VAR is that it's a technological insurance policy to catch things that get missed or unseen or wrongly viewed initially. With an AAR, you've got some real time insurance but that insurance can fail for any of the reasons I laid out above. The video insurance, which you can see from more than a dozen different angles, is sort of like adding a dozen AARs.

    But if the VAR isn't trained appropriately or isn't encouraged or empowered to make certain decisions, then it's all useless. At best.
     
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  21. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #371 MassachusettsRef, Oct 29, 2020
    While I think you make an excellent point and a helpful reminder in ensuring we all consider another player outside the goalkeeper, I think this is a stretch in this particular situation.

    Xhaka is making a movement to avoid the ball and allow it to go in the net. How do you reason then that the Leicester defender was "put off" by him, thereby preventing him from stopping the goal? If he had a chance of stopping the goal from that close of a range, surely he'd be following the ball, right? It doesn't make sense on a play like that to wait to see what Xhaka does--he's either going to get out of the way or redirect it in (and, if he redirects it in, the defender on the back post is totally irrelevant). I just don't see how Xhaka's movement has any impact on how that defender acts.

    Put in other terms, the inherent argument made here is that Xhaka is offside if he tries to move out of the way and offside if doesn't (because the ball will hit him). At that point, he's offside solely based on his position because he can't take any action to make himself not offside. That's obviously a phenomenon that can happen (e.g., sight line of the goalkeeper) but this really doesn't look like a play where that should be true.
     
  22. Pierre Head

    Pierre Head Member+

    Dec 24, 2005
    #372 Pierre Head, Oct 29, 2020
    It wasn't just the phantom goal, that was only my starting point. His first year or two in EPL and on FIFA were very erratic and led to his
    demotion (or his own decision to step down). IIRC, he was appointed to the FIFA list at the same time as Oliver, and their fortunes went in opposite directions. I agree he has improved since then, and is better than before, but still is unpredictable in a way that should not be present in a top referee. Saying he is good compared to the rest of the English FIFA referees is not that high of a compliment.
    I don't think I am being unfair or even harsh. Many years of observing referees at very high levels have provided me with sufficient insight to be able to make reasonable and accurate judgements. And I do agree with your assessment of the English referees right now. The decline in standards is truly shocking, which is very sad for the league that is supposed to be the best in the world with the most worldwide interest and coverage.

    PH
     
  23. balu

    balu Member+

    Oct 18, 2013
    #373 balu, Oct 29, 2020
    Attwell joined the FIFA list in 2009 while Oliver did in 2012.

    One could also make an argument that no one in Italy is really that good right now other than Orsato, in France other than Turpin, or in Germany other than Brych.
     
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  24. MassachusettsRef

    MassachusettsRef Moderator
    Staff Member

    Apr 30, 2001
    Washington, DC
    Nat'l Team:
    United States
    #374 MassachusettsRef, Oct 29, 2020
    Going against the grain for recent history, I think France has the strongest bench right now.
     
  25. Rufusabc

    Rufusabc Member+

    May 27, 2004
    #375 Rufusabc, Oct 29, 2020
    Roger East, who became a referee in the Select Group very late, was 54 when he did his last game in May 2019. (On his birthday,, no less!). He did around 90 PL matches in his career.
     
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