08/28/19 Montreal Impact vs Vancouver Whitecaps Saputo Stadium (8PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Kyle Atkins AR2: Claudiu Badea 4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere VAR: Geoff Gamble AVAR: Robert Schaap 08/31/19 New York Red Bulls vs Colorado Rapids Red Bull Arena (7PM ET) REF: Rubiel Vazquez AR1: Brian Dunn AR2: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein 4TH: Baldomero Toledo VAR: Jon Freemon AVAR: Kyle Longville Columbus Crew vs Chicago Fire MAPFRE Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Drew Fischer AR1: Jason White AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho 4TH: Yusri Rudolf VAR: Caleb Mendez Rosendo Mendoza AVAR: Eric Weisbrod Montreal Impact vs D.C. United Saputo Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Allen Chapman AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Jeremy Kieso 4TH: Elvis Osmanovic VAR: Kevin Terry Jr AVAR: Craig Lowry New England Revolution vs Toronto FC Gillette Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Tim Ford AR1: Kathryn Nesbitt AR2: Gjovalin Bori 4TH: Alejandro Mariscal VAR: Ted Unkel AVAR: Robert Schaap Philadelphia Union vs Atlanta United Talen Energy Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Robert Sibiga AR1: Matthew Nelson AR2: Kevin Klinger 4TH: Eric Tattersall VAR: Jorge Gonzalez AVAR: Cory Richardson FC Dallas vs FC Cincinnati Toyota Stadium (8PM ET) REF: Guido Gonzales Jr AR1: Frank Anderson AR2: Logan Brown 4TH: Kevin Broadley VAR: Kevin Stott AVAR: Kevin Terry Sporting Kansas City vs Houston Dynamo Children’s Mercy Park (8:30PM ET) REF: Alan Kelly AR1: Micheal Barwegen AR2: Ian McKay 4TH: Lukasz Szpala VAR: Edvin Jurisevic AVAR: TJ Zablocki Vancouver Whitecaps vs New York City FC BC Place (10PM ET) REF: Marcos DeOliveira AR1: Mike Rottersman AR2: Apolinar Mariscal 4TH: Alex Chilowicz VAR: Ricardo Salazar AVAR: Rene Parra Portland Timbers vs Real Salt Lake Providence Park (10:30PM ET) REF: Nima Saghafi AR1: CJ Morgante AR2: Adam Garner 4TH: Ramy Touchan VAR: Geoff Gamble AVAR: Chris Elliott San Jose Earthquakes vs Orlando City Avaya Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: Silviu Petrescu AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Felisha Mariscal 4TH: Joe Dickerson VAR: Victor Rivas AVAR: Michael Kampmeinert 09/01/19 Seattle Sounders vs LA Galaxy CenturyLink Field (6:30PM ET) REF: Christopher Penso AR1: Corey Rockwell AR2: Jeremy Hanson 4TH: Elijio Arreguin VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero AVAR: Eduardo Mariscal Los Angeles FC vs Minnesota United Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: Armando Villarreal AR1: Corey Parker AR2: Jeffrey Greeson 4TH: Alex Chilowicz VAR: Victor Rivas AVAR: Joshua Patlak
From the first half of tonight's game: Elfath whistles for a penalty for Vancouver, who are at that point ahead 0-1. Bush saves the penalty, but the rebound falls to Ricketts, who smashes it home. BUT WAIT! Ricketts was obviously encroaching when the penalty was taken. With the VAR protocols, this means Gamble sends down a review. BUT WAIT! Bush was also obviously encroaching off of the goal line at the moment of the kick. Now Elfath has to order the penalty retaken. Correct outcome. BUT WAIT! Elfath did NOT caution Bush for the encroachment. Surely this was a mistake? Law 14 is written somewhat ambiguously. Mentions the yellow when it's JUST the goalkeeper and mentions the yellow(s) when it's the goalkeeper AND the kicker but makes no specific mention where it discusses other scenarios with offenses by both teams. For me, the intention of the Law is that the goalkeeper should still be cautioned here, but I'm only about 95% confident and wanted to confirm.
I was ready to agree with you. Re-reading Law 14 gave me headaches, as usual, but I think it leads me to this clause being operative: • a player of both teams offends the Laws of the Game, the kick is retaken unless a player commits a more serious offence (e.g. illegal feinting); This is the only clause that accounts for a goalkeeper and an opponent other than the kicker simultaneously infringing. And it doesn’t explicitly say the goalkeeper needs a caution, even though every other clause does. You could argue it’s an oversight. But you can also argue it’s a deliberately placed freebie for goalkeepers because IFAB didn’t want to put referees in a position where they either had to have imbalance (one caution even though both players infringed) or they had to sanction something as misconduct (teammate encroachment) just because another independent condition was met. Remember, goalkeeper encroachment isn’t inherently a cautionable offence. It’s only an offence when certain conditions are met. Namely and most typically, that condition is that the ball does not enter the net. From a strict reading of Law 14, a second condition seems to be that there is not a punishable simultaneous offence by a teammate of the kicker. Whether Elfath and team processed all this in real-time or they got lucky while trying to bend the laws when they really didn’t need to is anyone’s guess. As I implied up top, I would have likely got this wrong (I probably would have leaned toward cautioning both).
Could it be that Elfath just ordered the retake due to players from both teams encroaching early in the penalty area and not due to one player from the the attacking team encroaching and the goal kicker leaving early off his line? In that case no caution is necessary. Looking at the video, you can make a case for encroachment by the Montreal defenders as well. Do we know for sure he ordered the retake due to the goal keeper encroaching? Or Elfath just doesn't know the Laws of the Game or has his own version? Which just might be the most plausible answer of them all. He has done it before where he has laughably applied the Laws incorrectly in an MLS game.
Opinions aside, I think the fact that there are at least one or two MTL players also slightly encroaching is enough to make the correct restart a retake even if Bush had not also encroached. I'm not sure if Bush's offense is considered to be more serious, but I would suppose it must be. Otherwise, you'd have situations where the referee could opt to avoid cautioning the goalkeeper (assuming no violation by the other team) as long as one teammate was even slightly encroaching. Clearly the Law is not written to reward a team for violating Law 14 multiple times. That leads me to conclude that Bush's offense was the one considered on review to "cancel out" Ricketts'. So either Law 14 does not require a caution due to the imbalance of not normally requiring one for what Ricketts did, or the crew had a collective brain fart. Guess we'll find out in a week for sure.
Clear drafting from IFAB strikes again . . . Since GK offenses are deemed to be as serious as kicker offenses if a goal is not scored, it seems odd that the Laws actually intended to let the keeper off the hook if an opposing non-kicker offended (i.e., committed a lesser offense. (It is odd (or perhaps classic IFAB) that they address the almost impossible simultaneous infraction by a kicker and GK, but fail to address the likely infraction by a GK and an encroaching attacker.) Of course, none of this exists but for the really stupid idea of cautioning GKs for timing mistakes. I'm hoping that IFAB realizes that after the WWC silliness and removes that caution in the next update.
Seattle-LA second half. 6 goals. 4 subs. Only 3 mins of stoppage time. Not that it matters a whole lot in the grand scheme of things, but that seemed woefully little to me
Watching USL Championship match between Austin Bold vs Rio Grande Valley and during the 44' minute, there was a perceived hand-ball by the GK outside the box. The GK protests that it was his knee/thigh but the ref wasn't having it. Rio Grande Valley Highlights vs. Austin Bold, 09/01/2019 pic.twitter.com/TZMbK18BB5— Rio Grande Valley FC Toros (@RGVFC) September 2, 2019 Incident starts at 0:20.
From the refs angle it looks like the arm, since the leg and the outstretched arm look like a flat picture from his angle. It's easier to see from the camera angle, from the ARs distance I would never feel confident telling the referee I saw 100% differently.
You're generally not supposed to add time for goals, are you? So 3 minutes for four subs seems pretty reasonable, unless there were injuries or addition time wasting.
The number of goals doesn't make a difference unless they all featured excessive celebrations. Four subs at less than a minute each is perfectly reasonable.
Long ago, when stoppage time was first regularly displayed publicly at the international level, FIFA guidance was 30 seconds per sub unless something unusual happened. I’ve always operated from that guidance. Six stand alone subs—which, all things being equal, is the most common result for a second half—is a baseline 3 minutes. I then adjust up or down from that based on what actually happened. So a half with 4 subs that also had something else (let’s say an injury or a VAR check or an excessive celebration), should fit perfectly at three minutes. If there were multiple “other things,” then sure, you’d be looking at more. But without anything else, six goals isn’t justification to go higher, as the last two posts point out.
I swear I'm the only referee that actually stops their watch to calculate additional time while everyone else basically just guesses. I've never understood this practice, especially considering most referees at a state level and above have fancy watches that specifically are designed for this.
I can count on one hand the number of times I tried to do that and actually remembered to restart my watch every time.
Well, everything has an element of guessing doesn’t it? Let’s say you have a sub up for entry. When do you stop your watch and when do you restart it? Is it from the point the ball goes out of play until it’s back in play? If so, that’s too long, because there was always going to be time the ball was out of play that didn’t need to be accounted for—the sub only adds to that time, it is not the cause of all of it. If you go from the moment you beckon to the moment of entry, that’s likely more accurate in most cases, but definitely not a science. Same goes for injuries that coincide with free kicks—how much of the “delay” is truly time lost versus how much is just normal? There’s just a margin of error no matter how precise you try to be. That’s why I think most referees don’t follow the path you use, except in cases like clear prolonged injuries or, now, long VAR delays.
I don't tend to stop unless I expect it to be long, but when I do, I love the fact that the ref ap I use on my watch vibrates periodically during the stoppage so you can't forget to restart.
So, if a there's a major incident at 33:15 and you have stopped your watch for 1 minute, you're recording the incident as the "33rd minute" instead of the correct "34th minute." The ones that run their watch continuously and add time are going to be correctly aligned for incident reports. The Spintso watches I own actually have dual clocks. One can be stopped and the vibration alert is keyed on that. The other runs continuously, resets itself to <duration_of_half> at start of second half, and can be used to calculate the exact minute of an incident.
The referee watch app on my Garmin works in a pretty similar manner. The "big numbers" count up so I can record the minute of incidents. The smaller numbers on top of the big numbers counts down from the time of the half to 0:00 and shows how much "playing time" is left. The bottom time shows the amount of stoppage time. My watch also buzzes every 10 seconds (as does the Spintso). Since we're supposed to have stoppage time in "full minutes" in USSF matches, I generally round up to the next minute unless I have less than 10 seconds past the minute (i.e. 1:08 on my stoppage time will be one minute, while 1:28 would be two minutes). When I do high school matches, I just switch the setting so the countdown timer is the "big number" in the middle of the watch.
I know I've seen that somewhere. I wouldn't just make something like that up. Perhaps it was in something unofficial, but I know I've read it somewhere.
Regardless whether rounding up or down, the referee who stops their watch will start seeing unreconcilable mismatches once the stoppage reaches 2 minutes instead 1 minute. I agree that all of this is a small thing but the OP was casting [very light] doubt on why anyone would not stop their watch.
That makes sense. When I run my second watch, I always let it run no matter what in the event I mess something up on my Garmin (shouldn't happen since it buzzes every 10 seconds when I've "stopped" the watch for added time. Even in a high school match where I'm keeping official time, I always have one watch just run. Absolute worst case is I can come close on "added time" (although I do have one AR also stop one of their watches as a backup unless we have a scoreboard clock). I just didn't want anyone to think I was just pulling stuff out of thin air. I'm fine with being wrong on matters of opinion and interpretation - that's why I monitor and respond in this forum. I do NOT want to lose credibility by making stuff up or by anyone thinking I'm doing so.