The thread wasn't up for Wednesday's MLS games, but here we go: 09/25/19 New York City FC vs Atlanta United Yankee Stadium (7PM ET) REF: Allen Chapman AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Brian Dunn 4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere VAR: Robert Sibiga AVAR: Ian McKay Minnesota United vs Sporting Kansas City Allianz Field (8PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Kyle Atkins AR2: Felisha Mariscal 4TH: Dave Gantar VAR: Fotis Bazakos AVAR: Craig Lowry Real Salt Lake vs LA Galaxy Rio Tinto Stadium (9:30PM ET) REF: Rubiel Vazquez AR1: Frank Anderson AR2: Cory Richardson 4TH: Sergii Demianchuk VAR: Chico Grajeda AVAR: TJ Zablocki Los Angeles FC vs Houston Dynamo Banc of California Stadium (10:30PM ET) REF: Ramy Touchan AR1: Logan Brown AR2: Jason White 4TH: Joe Dickerson VAR: Kevin Stott AVAR: Cameron Blanchard Portland Timbers vs New England Revolution Providence Park (10:30PM ET) REF: Jair Marrufo AR1: Mike Rottersman AR2: Ian Anderson 4TH: Farhad Dadkho VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero AVAR: Joshua Patlak San Jose Earthquakes vs Philadelphia Union Avaya Stadium (11PM ET) REF: Baldomero Toledo AR1: Nick Uranga AR2: Adam Garner 4TH: Mark Allatin VAR: Malik Badawi AVAR: Chris Elliott 09/29/19 Chicago Fire vs Toronto FC SeatGeek Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Kevin Stott AR1: Nick Uranga AR2: Claudiu Badea 4TH: Elvis Osmanovic VAR: Ricardo Salazar AVAR: Peter Manikowski FC Cincinnati vs Orlando City Nippert Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Robert Sibiga AR1: Matthew Nelson AR2: Kyle Longville 4TH: David Barrie VAR: Malik Badawi AVAR: Peter Balciunas Columbus Crew vs Philadelphia Union MAPFRE Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Rubiel Vazquez AR1: Jason White AR2: Benjamin Hall-Volpenhein 4TH: Marcos DeOliveira VAR: Jon Freemon AVAR: Craig Lowry Montreal Impact vs Atlanta United Saputo Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Jair Marrufo AR1: Cory Richardson AR2: Gianni Facchini 4TH: Fotis Bazakos VAR: Geoff Gamble AVAR: Robert Schaap New England Revolution vs New York City FC Gillette Stadium (5PM ET) REF: Nima Saghafi AR1: Frank Anderson AR2: Andrew Bigelow 4TH: Yusri Rudolf VAR: Tim Ford AVAR: Thomas Supple New York Red Bulls vs D.C. United Red Bull Arena (5PM ET) REF: Ramy Touchan AR1: Ian Anderson AR2: Corey Rockwell 4TH: Lukasz Szpala VAR: Joe Dickerson AVAR: Ian McKay Colorado Rapids vs FC Dallas Dick’s Sporting Goods Park (7:30PM ET) REF: Christopher Penso AR1: Jeremy Hanson AR2: Logan Brown 4TH: Mark Allatin VAR: Dave Gantar AVAR: Jonathan Johnson LA Galaxy vs Vancouver Whitecaps Dignity Health Sports Park (7:30PM ET) REF: Alan Kelly AR1: Eric Weisbrod AR2: Apolinar Mariscal 4TH: Baldomero Toledo VAR: Victor Rivas AVAR: Cameron Blanchard Minnesota United vs Los Angeles FC Allianz Field (7:30PM ET) REF: Drew Fischer AR1: Brian Poeschel AR2: Jeff Hosking 4TH: Sergii Demianchuk VAR: Chico Grajeda AVAR: Jeff Muschik Real Salt Lake vs Houston Dynamo Rio Tinto Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Alex Chilowicz AR1: Brian Dunn AR2: Chris Wattam 4TH: Pierre-Luc Lauziere VAR: Jose Carlos Rivero AVAR: Fabio Tovar San Jose Earthquakes vs Seattle Sounders Avaya Stadium (7:30PM ET) REF: Ismail Elfath AR1: Kyle Atkins AR2: Corey Parker 4TH: Rosendo Mendoza VAR: Edvin Jurisevic AVAR: Michael Kampmeinert Sporting Kansas City vs Portland Timbers Children’s Mercy Park (7:30PM ET) REF: Allen Chapman AR1: Adam Wienckowski AR2: Oscar Mitchell-Carvalho 4TH: Lorant Varga VAR: Armando Villarreal AVAR: Jozef Batko
It's definitely re-refereeing. But it's totally in line where PRO is or has been going. A goal kick is the preferred call there. No way calling a penalty is clearly wrong, of course. But why bother actually applying the protocols correctly at this point? The last minute New England penalty against Portland is another interesting VAR case. It's a blatant hold on a player who was in the drop zone, so it's going to get called via VAR. No surprise there. But that's not getting called in England because it's the type of penalty that regularly got missed in the past. It's a great example of a play that can decide who gets points in one league but be utterly irrelevant in another. On a related note, from the Canadian Championship last night, watch 2:53 here: THAT is the type of play you have VAR for. If this was in MLS, I wonder what a referee-VAR duo would have come up with for the color of the card here.
Judging from what has been done on a similar plays this year this is the answer: Yellow if the defender is not on a caution. No card at all and just the penalty kick if he is sitting on a caution. Look at some of the clips from last night. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/details/video/215418 Pogba, already on a yellow, commits a pretty textbook DOGSO yellow in the penalty area. No caution given. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...-fc-vs-atlanta-united-fc/details/video/215432 Same game. Chanot, without a caution, commits a more doubtful DOGSO yellow/reckless tackle in the penalty area, Caution given. In the Portland vs. New England match, Mabiala, already on a caution, commits a really blatant holding foul on a cross. It's a textbook yellow card. No caution given. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...s-new-england-revolution/details/video/215680 Finally, is there really much difference between what the New York City defender did in the clip below and what the Toronto defender did in the Canadian match? https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...rk-city-fc-vs-toronto-fc/details/video/213116 No caution given after video review because the defender was already on a caution. The defender essentially bats the ball down from coming onto the path of an attacker in the six. From these clips above, it's pretty apparent that there is either an implied or explicit instruction to not produce second caution send-offs on penalty kick fouls. There is no other way around it. I get that sometimes the penalty is "enough punishment," but this is bordering on just allowing defenders carte blanche to commit egregious and unsporting fouls in the penalty area without getting sent off.
When you say "It's a blatant hold on a player who was in the drop zone, so it's going to get called via VAR." why do you think a similar call wasn't made earlier in the game when it was Portland who was being held in the box? Both videos, the biggest diff is that the Portland player was in a position to strike the ball, whereas the NE player was never going to beat the GK to that ball regardless of his fall. One rule, two interpretations. What We'll Remember | https://t.co/z7S2O3mlOE | #RCTID pic.twitter.com/yMylLBB3sm— Portland Timbers (@TimbersFC) September 26, 2019
Ha. While I know what you're implying or alluding to, this play is different. This must be a card. The only question is whether or not it stopped a promising attack or an obvious goal-scoring opportunity. It's an open net and there's no one left to beat, but it's a cross and what's the likelihood that the attacker actually connects correctly here? To be honest, it's one of those that I think is defensible as red on first view and certainly feels like a red in real-time, but when you really examine it, suddenly it doesn't look so obvious of a goal. I think the result here would be PK + yellow if it's called via VAR. More like a textbook red. I also noticed this discrepancy with the Pogba challenge. To be honest, I just think the Chanot one is easier in real-time. It's pretty clear that the attacker is past everyone and about to shoot on net. With the Pogba challenge, almost immediately after the foul it gets murky because there is a second defender hanging around. Not a defense of the decision, but I can understand why one is given and the other isn't. You didn't actually expect one, did you? Yes, we disagree here. In the Canadian championship, the defender is deliberately knocking down a cross to an attacker with an open goal. Here, the defender has a stray arm above his head on a slide tackle where the ball hits his body and bounces up. The second motion from the defender is what makes this a penalty and by time that occurs, the ball is going up in the air (not over the defender) and there is a second defending covering. It's a penalty, but it's not stopping a promising attack and not a deliberate effort to cheat. I'm more than fine with no caution here. I think there is a reluctance or a higher threshold to give cautions on any penalties in MLS. But I think each of these can easily be explained away (some with good explanations, some with bad ones) and that none of them are actually an example of not wanting to show a second caution when one is necessary (the worst one, Pogba, should have actually been a straight red so it's just a failure to recognize DOGSO rather than a reluctance to give the 2CT).
You're preaching to the choir here. This is why I don't think holds like this should result in VAR penalties unless they are clearly on the person who was going to receive the ball. I understand that, sequentially, they are in reverse. But once you call that NER penalty it becomes difficult to justify not giving the Portland one. I think the practical answer is somewhere between the fact that NER attacker sells the penalty better and that there did seem to be some mutual grappling prior to the final shirt tug on the potential Portland penalty, so that could have dissuaded the VAR (whereas with the NER penalty, it was all one-sided). I'd have to (and like to) see all the available angles to be sure, though.
Any opinions on the SKC goal? Clearly handled, but was it deliberate? And was it clearly deliberate enough for a video review? Minnesota came back and won anyway so it's thankfully not hugely important.
You view the Pogba challenge as falling under the no attempt to play the ball clause of DOGSO in the penalty area? It's a lower body/foul with the legs rather than upper body. I have a pretty standard DOGSO yellow there? You think it should be straight red? I know PRO and FIFA want the benefit of the doubt to go to the defender there and give yellow. There was a player earlier this year where a defender came from behind and kind of grabbed the attacker by the shoulder while also fouling him with the legs and referee gave yellow. VAR sent it down asking for red and referee stuck with his original decision and PRO supported the yellow. Of course not. Marrufo was never going to give a red there. The guy goes like 7 seasons without producing a second caution red card in MLS. Which is really statistically impossible. There isn't a professional referee anywhere in the world that averages about 20 games a year that can go 7 seasons without sending a player off for two yellow cards. It's a statistical impossibility and it's going to an extreme of keeping a player in the game and going above and beyond the duty of "managing" a professional match. https://matchcenter.mlssoccer.com/m...itecaps-fc-vs-toronto-fc/details/video/196266 When you don't give a second caution for this, it's pretty much impossible to get a second caution for anything. I was just using the Portland clip to highlight the fact that you have three different referees with varying degrees of leniency and discipline styles all keeping their cards in the pocket on pretty standard (at least for me) caution plays with all the players already on yellows. As if you've said, we'll just have to agree to disagree on Toronto vs. New York penalty clip. I see the defender making a motion to bat the ball down there after it bounces up on him. For me, that second motion rises to a deliberate effort to cheat there and a caution is appropriate and I'm 100% convinced that Penso produces a card there if not on a yellow. Batting the ball, for me, rises to a level of misconduct there. I also don't see how it doesn't stop a promising attack there. Altidore is behind the defender waiting to blast the ball over the crossbar on the six. I could understand and even support no caution if the defender behind Altidore was in front of Altidore instead. Then you can say, the defender was batting the ball to prevent his own defender from getting the ball.
Maybe I’ll have to watch Pogba again. Seemed like a clumsy charge from behind to me. Though you’re right PRO wants yellow if yellow can be justified. As for the last one, I think the deflection off the leg is a big deal. We have no idea where that ball is going afterward and I don’t think there’s much of a chance at all that it ends up with Altidore. The “bat” is almost instinctual and everything happens really fast. I really don’t think it needs a card and no one is expecting a card there.
I'm sure this will be talked about soon. Okay.#SKCvPOR | #RCTID pic.twitter.com/EZpixGDRda— Portland Timbers (@TimbersFC) September 30, 2019
While it does look offside, the thing is this is way closer than it looks. The angle of the camera distorts the view. I'm sure if Offside Modeling models this, it comes out to be much closer than we think and thus not crossing the threshold of "clear and obvious."
I completely agree. But a lot of people don't. So it's more of a wait-and-see. Was a fun game to watch, though.
And? If the call was right (or at least, there's no angle that shows it conclusively wrong) there's no reason for VAR to send the call down for review, regardless of the AR's positioning.
I have no idea if that's off or on. Very interested to see what OffsideModeling gets on Twitter. Naked eye, sure it looks off. But the people online who are drawing the 2LD line parallel to the penalty area are making fools of themselves. Look how angled the cuts of the grass are outside the penalty area. They will immediately start to become that angled in the inverse direction as you go into the penalty area--they are just impossible to discern on video. This is a very distorted camera angle. The only question is exactly how distorted.
I'll pick up on this wrt AR positioning. It is possible that he was in line with the 2LD, but doesn't appear so because of the camera angle. The back line is rather static at the time of the play, so I'd expect the AR at that level to be properly positioned in that situation.
So that Russell goal for #SKC in #SKCvPOR? Very difficult to do with only one camera angle, but I did my best to piece together estimates. Seems like anywhere from 5-10" onside. Could be less, but I doubt it was offside after trying many different approaches. pic.twitter.com/RjVqK89LHr— SoccerPhotogrammetry AKA "A Nice Gentleman" (@OffsideModeling) September 30, 2019