Ask for any brazilian...even this year in all 4 matches between brazilians only Palmeiras, Botafogo and Ceará played with theirs first squad, the others 5 teams played with theirs second squad or a mix between than.
I'm not sure how this turned into a debate of who's better, Brazil or Argentina, but i'll put my vote firmly behind Brazil. The Copa Sudamericana I personally do not feel is a valid method of ranking the teams, since for most Brazilian teams their state competitions have more importance then the Sudamericana. In the Libertadores, Brazil in the last years have been the overwhelming power. Although Argentina with Boca Juniors has had a few wins, I think the most telling statistic is the amount of Brazilian teams present in the quarters and semis over the last decade. This tournament was Brazil's worst showing in a while, and still only one nation - not Argentina - had more countries in the final 8. Brazil also is not reliant upon one major team for their title challenges - their is much higher number of Brazilian teams who play, unlike in Argentina where Boca, River and Independiente make up a ridiculous amount of their final showings. The Brazilian league is much more even as you go down the table, with a much greater degree of unpredictability, making it to me, a better league then the Argentine.
La saeta rubia, if players want to be recognised as the best in the World they join European clubs because they play in the best leagues, simple. When Messi etc. start playing in the Argentine league and still get lauded as the best players on the planet then you will know that the Argentine league is best, until that time stop talking like a boludo.
I dont agree that players to be consider good need to play in Europe, in 90% of the history of soccer, Argentina and Brasil were in the top 5 leagues in the world. You cant forget that the greatest player of all the times never played in Europe.
That is true but it was a different time when Pele played. If you play in one of the big European Leauges, you are seen all over the world. The Argentine Leauge is not going to get you the same chance to be seen only a weekly basis throughout the world. I can only speak for the US but here you can see basically all of the Premier Leauge games as well as a lot of the Italian and Spanish games. You can see a few 2 or 3 Brazilian games on Goltv and maybe one Argentine game a week. Copa Lib is only on FoxDeportes and only in Spanish, while the UEFA Champions Leauge can be seen in English and Spanish. I just think if someone wants to be well known around the globe, then they want to play in Europe. Premier Leauge is followed World Wide while the South American Leagues are followed mostly in South America.
I am in Europe a lot and i can see Argentine and Brasilian futbol almost everywhere.In Spain you can see five Argentina primera games this week. I have Argentine friends who tell me our futbol can also be seen live in France,Italy,Portugal,Serbia,Slovenia,Poland, Greece,Britain,among others. I accept that in the English speaking World there is the view that one has to play in Europe.South American players however only go to Europe for one reason and thats the cash. The 1960s and seventies were at club level dominated by the South American clubs.Brasil won the 1962 and 1970 World cup with entirely home based squads.Argentina World cup winning squad in 1978 saw 21 out of the 22 playing at home.even in 1986 fifteen out of the twenty two were home based half a dozen from River World club champions that year. after this with the twin forces of the Champions league Sheiks and money launderers allied to a disastrous decade economically the top players began to move in numbers.But even in 2002 a majority of Brasils World cup winning team played at home. The economic situation is now turning again this time in South americas favour.The notion that Manchester or Madrid are intrinsiacally bigger than River,Boca,Sao Paolo or Flamengo is simply rubbish.
I think it was different back in the 60s and 70s. If you look at your Argentine National Team in Copa America only one player was playing in the Argentine League, just one, the rest were in Europe. In terms of Brazil 2002, you are correct about half of the players on that team still played in Brazil at the World Cup, but once they got the exposure from World Cup, what happened: Gilberta Silva went to Arsenal, Belleti went to Villarreal, Anderson Polga went to Sporting, Kleberson went to Manchester United, Juninho went to Middlesborough, Luizao went to Hertha Berlin, Kaka went to AC Milan. The Brazilian League is a very good league I just don't think it is better than the four big European Leagues. As of right now, most of the best South American players prefer to play in Europe. I am not saying that can't change and change fast but right now I think it is still true.
This is changing, brazilians teams revenues is growing very fast, even today Brazilians teams are able to pay big salaries as any European team for great players. Thats why there are many players coming back (some are old, others are not) and many young arent leaving. For me brazilian league is already the 4th league in the world if you consider players quality, the league also has great names of soccer, like Ronaldinho, Neymar, Rivaldo, Ganso, Juninho, Adriano, Belleti, Deco, Fred, Liedson, Gilberto Silva, Gilberto, Rogério Ceni, Lucas, Elano, Kleberson, Kleber, Thiago Neves and many others that arent very famous in Europe but are able to play in any big european team.
I still believe that the EPL, Serie A, La Liga, and Bundesliga are above from top to bottom, but that is my opinion of course and there is no way to actually prove it. Otherwise, you are quite right the Brazilian League is full of very good players and I know about the quality of most of the players you named. To be fair, there is so much soccer on right now, I don't get to watch much of the Brazilian League. It is really hard to compare leagues efficiently because it is hard to find time to watch that many games. I have been following the EPL for years, so I can speak much more about the teams in England than anywhere else.
Thats what great about futbol opinions.we are all biased in favour of what we know suerte a Fulham durante el año.
To be fair, these players have been to Europe but have now passed their prime and ability to get into the big teams.
Not as big as any European team, the biggest salary in Brazil is $6million a year where as in the EPL several top players in every big team earn $9million+. To put this in perspective in 2009 EPL all clubs revenue was $3.35bn, in 2009 the Brazilian league revenue rose by 12% because of an increase in TV rights to $1.13bn, this is even less than the value of the EPL wage in 2009 ($1.3bn). 2009 league revenue 1. England: The Premier League ($3.35bn) 2. Germany: Bundesliga ($2.28bn) 3. Spain: La Liga ($2.17bn) 4. Italy: Serie A ($2.16bn) 5. France: Ligue 1 ($1.51bn) Brazil: Série A ($1.13bn) I think 'changing' is a bit optimistic.
Ronaldinho has 30, still has years to play, Elano is not old, Liedson too, and there are many others like them.
There werent a Tv right increase in 2009, and the biggest salary in Brasil is 7.5 millions dollars a year (Ronaldinho) and before Ronaldo retirement he had the biggest salary. In 2010 Brazilian league revenue was $1,40bn, for 2012 probably will be $2,0 bn
Brazilian league revenue since 2003 in R$ http://www.futebolfinance.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bbdo32.png
Che Amigo dont mind this boludo he doesnt tell you the Epl clubs lost 410 million euro en 2010 and thats just the revenue. There are no allowances for the fact that the native English cant play the game. Este tipo es un boludo realmente un pelotudo
http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_xwn-Cw7lVqA/TI940_kx3lI/AAAAAAAAAC4/bhRjUJ3-0Io/s400/Picture8.png One or two player's do not make a league. Ronaldo's wage was far ahead of anybody else. http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_xwn-Cw7lVqA/TI95ZOs9LOI/AAAAAAAAADA/2hGrIxIAsjg/s400/Picture9.png Check David Beckham's wages for reference. Since 2009 there has been a huge leap in players wages in Europe. Brazilian clubs need to concentrate on providing fans with improved and cleaner stadium facilities, easier access, and a more secure environment. Thanks to the upcoming global events in 2014 and 2016 this should pave the way for these improvements and greatly improve the infrastructure of Brazilian football. Only then you can say that you're up there with the likes of Ligue 1. This is called inflation and growth, the EPL stands at over $3.5 bn and rising.
Argentina have played England 5 times in the last 20 years, drawing 3 times after normal time and losing to England twice. If you say the English can't play then what does that mean for Argentina? I think everyone is tired of your nonsense and name calling. If you can't form a decent civil discussion then STFU.
Stop using 2009 numbers, they are not new...Im not comparing Ligue 1 with Brasileirão anymore, even Ligue 1 still has bigger revenue, Brasileirão quality of player is clearly better. If a french team need to pay US$ 200.000 (months/wages) for medium quality player, in Brasil player like that appear all years from the local canteras... 600m inflation? hahah ok maybe in Spain, Portugal or Greece there will be such a big inflation cause of the crisis...normal inflation is about 3 or 4%.
Sorry I quoted the wrong post, I meant to quote this for inflation and normal growth. DanFla Brazilian league revenue since 2003 in R$ http://www.futebolfinance.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/06/bbdo32.png re. the 2009 figures, you said TV revenue didn't have great increase in 09, i've just showed you it did. And also the huge gulf in players wages from Ronaldo to what the next nearest was earning. According to you, but you probably know nothing about French football.
If you believe that 2009 Tv rights increase was big, you should wait for 2012 when the value will triple... The same for you, i believe you know very little about Brazilian soccer. I dont consider Lille team better than Brazilian last champion, Fluminense, but the gap between the teams only increase when comparing others teams. Brazilian league has many similar teams with a small gap of quality between the first and the last one, different than europeans leagues.
Maybe you should be waiting to see that happen before posting then. No, unlike the big Euro leagues they don't have super teams full of galacticos. EPL from top to bottom are quality teams.
Well i dont need to wait since the contract is already signed for 2012. Ok than. Fluminense last brazilian champion is on the 9th position this year, Santos last Libertadores champion is on the 17th position, Goias that was the runner up on last Copa Sudamericana is on the second division, Vasco the last Brasil Cup champion is on the 4th position and the runner up is on the 10th position. Flamengo that was the leader last round, lost 4x1 to Atlético-GO current 18th team and Corinthians actual leader lost to Figueirense that was on the 11th position. I doubt that Ligue 1 has great teams like Brasil and also very similar teams.
Why not creating 16 big leagues like this: North European Premier League: Manchester United Arsenal PSV Ajax Bayern Munchen Borussia Dortmund Schalke Liverpool FC Manchester City Chelsea etc. West European Premier League: Real Madrid FC Barcelona Benfica FC Porto Paris Saint Germain Olympique de Marseille AC Milan Internazionale AS Roma Valencia CF etc. East European Premier League: Spartak Moscow Zenit CSKA Moscow Lokomotiv Moscow Lech Poznan Legia Warszawa Shakhtar Dynamo Kyiv Sparta Praha Steaua etc. South European Premier League: Fenerbahce Galatasaray Besiktas Trabzonspor AEK Panathinaikos Olympiacos Beitar Red Star Hajduk Split etc. West American Premier League: Sao Paulo FC Corinthians Flamengo Fluminense Once Caldas Millonarios Gremio Internacional Cruzeiro Caracas FC etc. South American Premier League: Boca Juniors River Plate Independiente Colo Colo Nacional Penarol Cerro Porteno San Lorenzo Estudiantes Racing Club etc. North American Premier League: New York Cosmos Los Angeles Galaxy Chicago Fire Toronto FC DC United Seattle Sounders Houston Dynamo FC Dallas Colorado Rapids Philadelphia Union etc. East American Premier League: Club America CD Guadalajara Deportivo Saprissa CF Pachuca Deportivo Toluca Club Atlas CF Monterrey Tigres de la UANL Pumas de la UNAM Santos Laguna etc. North Asian Premier League: Beijing Guoan Guangzhou Evergrande Shanghai Shenhua Urawa Red Diamonds FC Tokyo FC Seoul Suwon Bluewings South China AA Albirex Niigata Gamba Osaka etc. West Asian Premier League: Al Hilal Al Ittihad Al Sadd Al Gharafa Al Jazira Persepolis Esteghlal Pakhtakor Bunyodkor Al Shabab etc. East Asian Premier League: Sydney FC Melbourne Victory Persija Jakarta Persib Bandung Brisbane Roar Wellington Phoenix Adelaide United Perth Glory Persebaya Surabaya Muangthong United etc. South Asian Premier League: Mohun Bagan East Bengal FC Pune FC Mumbai FC Dempo SC Viva Kerala Brothers Union WAPDA FC Shillong Lajong Three Star Club etc. North African Premier League: Al Ahly Zamalek Raja Wydad Esperance Club Africain USM Alger MC Alger JS Kabylie USM Annaba etc. South African Premier League: Kaizer Chiefs Orlando Pirates Engen Santos Bloemfontein Celtic Mamelodi Sundowns Ferroviario Petro Atletico Gaborone United Dynamos Platinum Stars etc. West African Premier League: Enyimba Enugu Rangers ASEC Hearts of Oak Asante Kotoko Canon Cotonsport Stade Malien AS Douanes Real Bamako etc. East African Premier League: Al Merreikh Al Hilal Club Saint George Mathare United Tusker Motema Pembe Vita Club CARA APR Rayon Sports etc.