Post-match: 2/11, WCQ: USA v Mexico, general post-match discussion {R}

See the Spanish edition of goal.com and you'll find that they state that it was a clear PK. I can't provide a link to FS Argentina because I saw it on TV, not the internet.

After Dos Santos was taken down, he stayed on the ground and turned to his right looking for the sideline referee to see if he had seen the foul. That is why he is still lying on the ground in the second play (when he apparently touches the ball with his feet).

The precise goal.com link: http://www.goal.com/es-la/news/1128...caf-estados-unidos-aprovecha-sus-oportunidade

 

"El Universal" has a commentary up about the match where they list a litany of Rafa Marquez red cards. They say-
((( "The captain, although we should be used to seeing him walk off the field with a red card being shown at his back. Just as it happened against Trinidad and Tobago in qualifiers for the 2002 World Cup, or against the United States in the second round of Korea-Japan, or against Argentina in the 2005 Confederations Cup, or in the 2006 World Cup in Germany against Portugal, or against Jamaica just last year, or like on Wedensday against the United States. We see it again and again." )))
Six red cards according to this Mexican press report, crikey! Time for an intervetion, no?

 

All that proves is that goal.com knows their target audience: English edition, no foul; Spanish edition, blatant foul.

And because he stayed on the ground and appealed for a foul that's proof it was actually a foul? Seriously?

Whatever, from my perspective it was inconclusive, and bitching about it ain't changing a thing.

 

Okay, so Tomas Fregoso, a guy who covers Mexican soccer for goal.com, says it was a penalty. Once again, I still haven't seen any links to a neutral who thinks it was a penalty. I'm open to additional sources, though.

For the record: I just did the search "united states mexico penalty gio" on google and google news and got one relevant hit from a Mexican blog. I also found one commenter on SBI who thought it was a penalty.

And also: Gio isn't appealing for or even looking to see if there's a penalty, he just gets up slowly. The things people imagine to be there are starting to get silly!

 

I still haven't seen a good replay of the tackle. The US Soccer replay cut in right after

 

Ardido,my friend,ardido.

 

I never said that the fact that he stayed in the ground was prove of anything. This was actually in response to someone arguing that no player discussed the ref's call (that is, no PK).

But this is nonsense really. I don't know why I'm even discussing this. If you don't want to concede that it was a clear PK despite all the evidence there is, that's up to you and I really couldn't care less.

 

You obviously care quite a bit, since you use a seperate handle for posting on the US boards. What is your real handle, anyway?

As far as I can tell, the evidence that there was a foul consists of the say so of you, the president of the FMF, and some Mexican media outlets (whose objectivity is pretty lax compared to the rest of the world's standards). If it was a clear pk, you'd expect at least some english-language media discussing it at least a little bit. Heck, even the "referee" forum on Bigsoccer didn't see any penalty.

Edit: Every site I find that discusses the play doesn't even mention the possibility of a penalty:

examiner.com:

Pardo dropped the kick in behind the US line, but Giovani dos Santos couldn't collect the ball on a one-touch, slipped onto his back and the ball skidded wide of the goal—right at the feet of Fausto Pinto. Trying to strike it back across the goal mouth, Pinto hit a low drive towards the bottom right of the frame, past US keeper Tim Howard, and at the feet of the prone dos Santos.

Kickoff South Africa:

"Pavel Pardo sent a free kick from the center of the field into the penalty area where a touch from Giovani Dos Santos set up Fausto Pinto on the left side of the box."

Nor do any of the English-speaking foreign press mention anything about a penalty afaik.


http://www.examiner.com/x-739-Asian...9m2d11-Ching-US-soccer-team-defeats-Mexico-20

http://www.kickoff.com/static/european/news.php?id=13926

You've been offered the chance to show "all the evidence" and you come up with "I know what I see" and a Mexican National Team writer. Good job, you. I bet you're a lawyer.

 

From about 2:30 to 3:40 is the whole sequence:
[ame="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_8JcQXky1LE&feature=related"]YouTube - Estados Unidos 2-0 Mexico --- Hexagonal de la concacaf --- miercoles 11/febrero/2009[/ame]

Interesting that the Mexican fans referred to a different camera angle -- this might be it.

Btw, it looks like Gio was looking to the side because that's where the ball/play went.

I'm hardly convinced it's a clear penalty, but I could see being aggrieved as a Mexican fan.

 

Is ardido spanish for "childish petulance"?

 

I just want to put in a good word for DeMarcus. I have seen him so many times turn into a a frightened, lost, little boy in big games. Against Mexico he played like a man, with authority, like a veteran, cool as a cucumber.

No plaintiff anxious pleading looks to the ref when he got dumped on his ass - conducted the ball with grace and presence - touching, looking up to survey the whole field - turned and held up, safed the ball, plain and simple - like a pro.

A number of searching crosses that just barely missed - the move he put on the Mexican R-back late in the first half, ".....race me to the ball, Chilango!" ....cross!.....to the head of Donovan, one hop and Dempsey on the volley - SHOT on goal - Hallelujah! That's the DeMarcus I was praying for to appear. Yeah, yeah, yeh-ah!

It looks like DeMarcus the veteran of World Cups, the Premiership, Champions League, and the Dutch Eersedivisie finally told the shit scared little boy Beazley to go sit on the bench and watch the master at work.

Hooo-ahhhh!

 

Yes, that's why he took the lefty corners at PSV and at City.

 

I have seen Beaz in almost every single USA game and I have never seen this even one time. Some games are better than others but I find the comment that he has looked frightened bizarre. He is a pretty cool customer. You sure you are not projecting?

 

The reverse angle sort of looks like a penalty but its blurry and it just looks like that because Pearce and Gio go down at the same time. The slow motion at 3:02 is clear though - Gio starts diving feet first for the ball before Pearce even touches him. Pearce puts his arms on Gio's back (or tangles with the arm, I can't tell: Pearce's arms are outstretched, though) and falls down too, but it has no effect on Gio - just gives a sort of illusion that he's being pushed. Gio doesn't slow down at all or alter his movement toward the ball. Thus, I don't think it is a penalty, unless mere touching is itself a foul - this is a referee's question, I guess.

 

I saw it the same way. It's inconclusive at best. I also thought it was interesting to hear these commentators refer to "Loco Marquez" whereas the Univision guys at first seemed to think a U.S. player had been red-carded.

 

Agreed. It's hard to tell from YouTube footage.

And, as others have pointed out, it probably means something that Dos Santos doesn't seem to call for a penalty even once. Players usually ask for one if they think it's even close.

 

Thank God Bradley is the coach, because I don't think Kenny Arena would have had such a good game against El Tri.

 

dude, you're honduran and you're celebrating a US win?

jesus, you're pathetic.

 

So? What's wrong with celebrating another Team's win?

 

It is strange, since Mexico is such a well liked and respected team in the region.

 

I just took about 20 minutes and watched it fast, live, replay and super slow mo over and over my HDDVR has. It was very clear. Here's what I saw:
Great Free kick. Gio on side at time of Free Kick and jogging up and past Pearce at time of kick. Pearce trying to keep the offside line up doesn't run as fast. Gio is on outside shoulder runs faster than Pearce, Once they both see it's going to them they both speed up. Gio (Still a foot ahead) cuts slightly in toward ball and in fact makes first contact putting his left arm in front of Pearce trying to use as leverage to push past him. (Clearly not a foul, just contact with left arm in front) Pearce seeing that Gio is headed right for the ball and is slightly ahead and has an arm in his chest takes his right arm and curls it up to grab Gio's left arm and starts to pull back and stop running falling to the ground.He also right at the end takes his left hand and grabs Gio's arm too. Ball comes in and in fact hits Gio's right foot, being his weaker foot and angled parallel to goal balls comes off parallel. It is clearly a penalty, this isn't border line at all. Ball going to player who has beat his defender 4 feet in front of goal getting pulled down by his arm is a penalty. Live I didn't think so. Also noticed Gio could have angled his right foot to put the ball on goal but wanted to show the Ref it's a foul by not fighting through the foul. Full speed it was tough to see particularly when the Ref was way outside the penalty area. He stayed about 20 Feet north of the penalty area which I think is way too far to see through 20 players.
A few other interesting tidbits I noticed. When Gio slid in Tim Howard did a little skip up to make sure Gio didn't slide into him, when he came across goal he was entirely in the goal when the shot came back across, through Oguchi's legs! Could have easily hit them for corner, block or goal. Also Gio was lying on the ground and I thought he was clearly offside but Gooch had dropped so low and quickly he almost kept him onside when the ball came back across. I think his legs were off by about 2 feet, (No pun intended) If Gio lying on the ground had hit the ball back in goal would they have called it offside? I don't think so because the linesman let the play continue with flag down which led to the Marquez Red. Whew!

 

More likely he's celebrating a Mexican loss...

 

mmm no i like the usa !

 

me too.

 

What you've just described is not a "clear penalty." What you've described is the offensive player initiating contact and using his arm to try to create separation, and the defender grabbing the arm to try to prevent it. It is the type of contact that happens on EVERY set piece. It could legitimately be called a PK, but it is not "clearly a penalty."

If it were reversed and it had happened to us, I would be bummed we didn't get the call, but I wouldn't feel that we deserved the call. Also, I'd be interested to hear from a ref about the offside. I believe I have heard an interpretation of the offside rule that says you need "space" between the defender and the offside player, which would imply that if most of Dos Santos' body is NOT goalside of the last defender, then he is not, in fact offside. If that is the correct interpretation of the rule, then I don't see any problem with either call.

All that said... there is never any excuse for Rafa's foul. The angle from the spanish language broadcast makes it even more clear. If Rafa goes in clean for that ball, or concedes it to Howard, it would be a completely different ballgame. The ref didn't have anything to do with that.