Yes, maybe one day we should do a thread about Argentina's early football history, there is a lot to be said. Domingo Tarasconi: Started playing in 1920 at Atlanta, 1922-31 at Boca, then played a couple more years but the Boca years were his prime. He ranks fourth in Boca's scoring behind Martin Palermo, Francisco Varallo and Roberto Cherro. at Boca he scored 193 goals in 263 matches (according to El Grafico). He was either a centerforward or inside-right. He was a very physical player, and is described as strong/powerful and also highly technical, a lethal striker who had a very powerful shot. Nicknamed Tarasca or Mingo, he was also called "romperedes" (net breaker), and the legend is that he scored goals from midfield (goles de mediacancha), because he liked to shot from long distance, often successfully. For Argentina had 24 caps and 18 goals. Roberto Cherro: Played at Boca (where he retired) from 1926 through 37 and scored for Boca 219 goals in 305 matches. For Argentina 13 goals in 16 caps. Cherro is remembered as the prototype of Moreno, Sivori, Maradona and Messi. He was nicknamed Cabecita de oro (Golden head), Apilador, and also La Chancha (the female pig) because (much like Maradona) he tended to gain weight and didn't always look exactly like a top athlete. Nevertheless, he was probably the best of the three in terms of ability. He is remember as an attacking midfielder with not much pace but unbelievable dribbling and passing ability, very creative and tricky, and also a great finisher. My thinking is that he was probably the best of the three. Francisco Varallo: (The most popular of the three, among bosteros, because he was Boca's highest scorer in the professional era for many years until Palermo showed up), was a classic penalty area centerforward. At Boca from 31 (which was the first year of the professional era) through 40, he had previously played at Gimnasia and Velez. He scored 194 goals for Boca in 222 matches. For Argentina 7 goals in 16 matches. Nicknamed "el cañoncito (the little cannon) he is remembered as having a very powerful shot, which sometimes ended up in the stand but if it went towards the goal it was unstoppable. I picture him as an early days version of Martin Palermo. I'll leave something from an interview given by Varallo, which sheds light on his relationship with Cherro. (My translation) "I was Boca's idol, I scored many goals and the people loved me. But I owe all to Cherro. Of the 181* goals I scored, 150 were from Cherro. He led all of us, he was the manager inside the field. He had skill, talent and intelligence, he always gave me the ball exactly where I wanted it." Varallo said that when he came to Boca they wanted to play him in midfield, and the first few games he was not doing well. Until Cherro "my guardian angel" told him, "Pancho, you have to play as the nine (CF), otherwise you will fail. Go well inside the penalty area and you will get tired of scoring. Stay there, dont ask for it (the ball), because I will find you.. And that's what happened. I picture their chemistry as that of Riquelme and Palermo, at least in the pitch, we all know that outside Riquelme and Palermo didn't get along. *A discrepancy with the official numbers, but that's what Varallo said.
Ulrik le Fevre is from the time when the Danish National team was purely for amateurs only, and no professional players were allowed, even the NT coach was hired on an amateur basis, until the Danish FA finally introduced professional players in the early 70's and then hired Sepp Piontek as NT manager in 1979, and the rest is history, with Denmark finishing 3rd at the Euro-84 and reaching the WC-86 Round of 16 after only having had success and won medals at the Olympics in the past, with non of the professional danish players being allowed to help out. Of Ulrik le Fevres 37 NT games, only 9 of them were in the 70's when professional players were finally allowed to play and by the time Sepp Piontek had been hired, Fevre had turned 33 and his career was over, and unlike 1977 Ballon d'Or winner Allan Simonsen, then Fevre also missed out on beating Brazil and playing Quarter-finals at the 1972 Olympics, because he had turned professional, while Simonsen waited until after the Olympics before he signed with Mönchengladbach. But Fevre was a regular starter for a highly strong Mönchengladbach and won the Bundesliga Championship 2 years in a row in 1969-70 and 1970-71, besides scoring the very first offical Bundesliga Tor des Jahres (Goal of the Year) in 1970 (awarded in 1971) : https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goal_of_the_Year_(Germany)#Winners Before the WC-70 in Mexico, German NT coach Helmut Schön said this about Fevre : ”Wäre er nur ein Deutscher", meaning that had he just been a German, he would have picked him for his WC squad. He then moved to Belgium and Brugge in 1972 where he then won the Belgium League 3 times before moving back to Vejle and Denmark in 1977 and though only playing 18 league games before he retired in 1978 he also won the Danish Championship in 1978, making him the very first Danish player ever to win a championship in three different countries.
Btw, funny to see Ulrik le Fevre being mentioned, but not the arguably all time greatest Danish player Allan Simonsen, who is the only Nordic player ever to win the Ballon d'Or, and even getting 3rd in 1983 while playing in Denmark for the small Danish team Vejle (That in itself is kind of a miracle and would surely be impossible to ever happen again, for such a small team). https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ballon_d'Or But Simonsen won 3 German Championships in a row (from 1975 to 1977) for Borussia Mönchengladbach including also being selected for the Kicker Bundesliga 'Team of the Season' the same 3 years in a row : https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/bundesliga-team-of-the-season-1964-2012-kicker.1982954/ Simonsen is btw the only player to have scored in both the UEFA Champions Cup Final, UEFA Cup Final, and Cup Winners' Cup Final, and since only the first two are still here in the shape of the Champions and Europa League while the Cup Winners' Cup is long gone, no other player will ever be able to do the same. Though scoring in the Finals, he only won the UEFA Cup (in 1974-75 and 1978-79 with Mönchengladbach) and Cup Winners' Cup (1981-82 with Barcelona) but never won the UEFA Champions Cup, where he only became top scorer (in 1977–78) and then also UEFA Cup topscorer (in 1978–79).
Imho the best keepers of the last 30 years are Schmeichel, Buffon, Cech, Van der Sar, Kahn, Neuer and Casillas. It basically matches up with this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IFFHS_World's_Best_Goalkeeper#The_World's_Best_Goalkeeper_of_the_21st_Century's_first_decade Of these, I'd say Schmeichel, Kahn and Casillas have maybe longevity issues (Schmeichel was a tad error prone at the beginning and in the last 1.5 years of his Man United spell). That he was only once in the PFA team of the year is suspect but typical. What Kahn has in his favor, is a high level of protagonism for the 2002WC and the 2001CL. Not many have that, in particular when playing for 'big teams'. Some say VdS was awful at Juventus, but in fact, he has the lowest goals conceded (by a margin) and the most clean sheets in both seasons. With a defense of Luliano, Montero, 33 years old Ferrara and Pessotto ahead of him. It took Buffon 10 years before he approached those numbers of 20 goals against. Petr Cech his prime as shot stopper was clearly 2004-2009, but was pretty good afterwards as well. But I'm sure you will not rate any Holland player since the Rijkaard generation (I guess Rooney, Tevez will end up in the all-time great category and RvP will not, for example). And if individual success is a criteria, evidently it doesn't matter how many Champions League finals are started in their own generation (VdS the only keeper to win with two different clubs, Seedorf) or how many goals scored (RvN, who was even by IFFHS designated as the greatest goalscorer of the decade since he also reliably scored against Italy, Germany etc. on international level). In the meantime, Van Dijk at Southampton was markedly better/influential than Campbell at Tottenham (much better team results, with a much stronger individual impact on the results; the passing accuracy); it just didn't register among the media megaphones.
I am sure you will disagree with some parts, feel free to explain why, as I said I am open to changes.
13) Zico, Platini, and English Club Dominance ~ 1976-1985 A number a megastar players arise and entrance world football in Zico, Platini, and Maradona. These three players lead dazzling national teams who play great football but fail to win the World Cup. More pragmatic teams in Italy and pre Maradona Argentina take the titles. Club football in Europe is dominated by English sides with the Italian league strengthened by a slew of imports challenging in the latter part of the era. In South America clubs are still strong and at similar levels to their European counterparts, but some top players are beginning to be lost. Players Considered Alain Giresse France Attacking Link Alan Hansen Scotland Defensive Link Alberto Tarantini Argentina Wide Defensive Link Aleksandre Chivadze Soviet Union Defensive Link Alessandro Altobelli Italy Forward Goalscorer Allan Simonsen Denmark Forward Playmaker Americo Gallego Argentina Midfield Supporting Anatoliy Demyanenko Soviet Union Wide Defensive Link Antonin Panenka Czechoslovakia Attacking Link Antonio Cabrini Italy Wide Defensive Link Antonio Maceda Spain Back Supporting Arie Haan Netherlands Defensive Link Arnold Muhren Netherlands Attacking Link Batista Brazil Midfield Supporting Bernd Schuster Germany Midfield Playmaker Bruno Conti Italy Wide Attacking Link Bruno Pezzey Austria Defensive Link Bryan Robson England Midfield Supporting Carlos Caszely Chile Forward Goalscorer Carlos Manuel Portugal Midfield Playmaker Cesar Cueto Peru Midfield Playmaker Claudio Gentile Italy Wide Back Daniel Bertoni Argentina Wide Forward Daniel Passarella Argentina Back Supporting Dario Pereyra Uruguay Back Marking David Kipiani Soviet Union Attacking Link David O'Leary Ireland Back Supporting Dominique Rocheteau France Wide Forward Eder Brazil Wide Forward Edinho Brazil Back Supporting Eric Gerets Belgium Wide Back Erich Obermayer Austria Back Marking Erwin Vandenbergh Belgium Forward Goalscorer Falcao Brazil Midfield Supporting Felix Magath Germany Midfield Playmaker Fernando Gomes Portugal Forward Goalscorer Francesco Graziani Italy Forward Playmaker François Van der Elst Belgium Wide Forward Frank Arnesen Denmark Wide Attacking Link Franky Vercauteren Belgium Wide Attacking Link Frans Thijssen Netherlands Wide Attacking Link Friedl Koncilia Austria Goalkeeper Fulvio Collovati Italy Back Marking Fyodor Cherenkov Soviet Union Midfield Playmaker Gaetano Scirea Italy Defensive Link Gerard Janvion France Wide Back Giancarlo Antognoni Italy Midfield Playmaker Glenn Hoddle England Midfield Playmaker Gordon Strachan Scotland Wide Attacking Link Graeme Souness Scotland Midfield Supporting Hans Krankl Austria Forward Goalscorer Hans Peter Briegel Germany Wide Defensive Link Hans-Jurgen Dorner Germany Defensive Link Harald Schumacher Germany Goalkeeper Herbert Prohaska Austria Midfield Playmaker Hugo de Leon Uruguay Back Marking Ian Rush Wales Forward Goalscorer Ivan Nielsen Denmark Back Marking Jan Ceulemans Belgium Attacking Link Ján Kozák Czechoslovakia Midfield Playmaker Jan Peters Netherlands Midfield Playmaker Jean Marie Pfaff Belgium Goalkeeper Jean Tigana France Midfield Supporting Joachim Streich Germany Forward Goalscorer Joel Bats France Goalkeeper John Metgod Netherlands Defensive Link John Robertson Scotland Wide Attacking Link John Wark Scotland Attacking Link Jorge Olguin Argentina Wide Back Jorge Valdano Argentina Forward Goalscorer Jose Antonio Camacho Spain Wide Back Jose Velasquez Peru Midfield Supporting Jozef Mlynarczyk Poland Goalkeeper Juan Barbas Argentina Midfield Playmaker Julio Cesar Romero Paraguay Midfield Playmaker Julio Cesar Uribe Peru Forward Playmaker Junior Brazil Wide Defensive Link Karlheinz Forster Germany Back Marking Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Germany Forward Goalscorer Kenny Dalglish Scotland Forward Playmaker Klaus Fischer Germany Forward Goalscorer Kurt Jara Austria Attacking Link Leandro Brazil Wide Defensive Link Leonid Buryak Soviet Union Midfield Playmaker Liam Brady Ireland Midfield Playmaker Ludovic Coek Belgium Midfield Playmaker Luis Arconada Spain Goalkeeper Luis Fernandez France Midfield Supporting Luis Galvan Argentina Back Marking Luizinho Brazil Back Supporting Manfred Kaltz Germany Wide Defensive Link Manuel Amoros France Wide Defensive Link Manuel Bento Portugal Goalkeeper Marco Tardelli Italy Midfield Supporting Marian Masny Czechoslovakia Wide Attacking Link Mario Kempes Argentina Forward Goalscorer Mark Lawrenson Ireland Back Supporting Maxime Bossis France Wide Defensive Link Michel Platini France Attacking Link Michel Renquin Belgium Wide Back Migueli Spain Back Marking Morten Olsen Denmark Defensive Link Osvaldo Ardiles Argentina Midfield Playmaker Paolo Rossi Italy Forward Goalscorer Patrick Battiston France Back Supporting Paul Breitner Germany Midfield Playmaker Paulo Isidoro Brazil Attacking Link Peter Shilton England Goalkeeper Phil Neal England Wide Back Pierre Littbarski Germany Wide Attacking Link Piet Schrijvers Netherlands Goalkeeper Preben Elkjaer Larsen Denmark Forward Goalscorer Rafael Gordillo Spain Wide Defensive Link Ramaz Shengelia Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer Ramon Diaz Argentina Forward Playmaker Reinaldo Brazil Forward Goalscorer René Vandereycken Belgium Midfield Supporting Ricardo Bochini Argentina Attacking Link Rinat Dasaev Soviet Union Goalkeeper Roberto Dinamite Brazil Forward Goalscorer Rodolfo Rodriguez Uruguay Goalkeeper Safet Susic Yugoslavia Attacking Link Santillana Spain Forward Goalscorer Socrates Brazil Attacking Link Soren Lerby Denmark Midfield Supporting Steve Archibald Scotland Forward Goalscorer Steve Coppell England Wide Attacking Link Terry McDermott England Midfield Playmaker Thomas N'Kono Cameroon Goalkeeper Tibor Nyilasi Hungary Attacking Link Tita Brazil Wide Attacking Link Toninho Cerezo Brazil Midfield Supporting Ubaldo Fillol Argentina Goalkeeper Uli Stielike Germany Defensive Link Victor Munoz Spain Midfield Supporting Viv Anderson England Wide Back Vladimir Bessonov Soviet Union Wide Defensive Link Vladimir Petrovic Yugoslavia Midfield Playmaker Walter Meeuws Belgium Back Marking Walter Schachner Austria Wide Forward Willie Miller Scotland Back Marking Willy Van De Kerkhof Netherlands Midfield Supporting Wladislaw Zmuda Poland Back Marking Włodzimierz Smolarek Poland Wide Forward Zbigniew Boniek Poland Forward Playmaker Zdenek Nehoda Czechoslovakia Forward Goalscorer Ze Sergio Brazil Wide Forward Zico Brazil Forward Playmaker Qualified All Time Great Alain Giresse France Attacking Link Alan Hansen Scotland Defensive Link Aleksandre Chivadze Soviet Union Defensive Link Allan Simonsen Denmark Forward Playmaker Anatoliy Demyanenko Soviet Union Wide Defensive Link Antonin Panenka Czechoslovakia Attacking Link Antonio Cabrini Italy Wide Defensive Link Arie Haan Netherlands Defensive Link Bernd Schuster Germany Midfield Playmaker Bruno Conti Italy Wide Attacking Link Bruno Pezzey Austria Defensive Link Bryan Robson England Midfield Supporting Claudio Gentile Italy Wide Back Daniel Bertoni Argentina Wide Forward Daniel Passarella Argentina Back Supporting Eric Gerets Belgium Wide Back Falcao Brazil Midfield Supporting Franky Vercauteren Belgium Wide Attacking Link Gaetano Scirea Italy Defensive Link Glenn Hoddle England Midfield Playmaker Graeme Souness Scotland Midfield Supporting Hans Krankl Austria Forward Goalscorer Hans Peter Briegel Germany Wide Defensive Link Harald Schumacher Germany Goalkeeper Herbert Prohaska Austria Midfield Playmaker Ian Rush Wales Forward Goalscorer Jan Ceulemans Belgium Attacking Link Jean Marie Pfaff Belgium Goalkeeper Jean Tigana France Midfield Supporting Jose Antonio Camacho Spain Wide Back Julio Cesar Romero Paraguay Midfield Playmaker Junior Brazil Wide Defensive Link Karlheinz Forster Germany Back Marking Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Germany Forward Goalscorer Kenny Dalglish Scotland Forward Playmaker Liam Brady Ireland Midfield Playmaker Luis Arconada Spain Goalkeeper Luis Fernandez France Midfield Supporting Manfred Kaltz Germany Wide Defensive Link Manuel Amoros France Wide Defensive Link Marco Tardelli Italy Midfield Supporting Mario Kempes Argentina Forward Goalscorer Maxime Bossis France Wide Defensive Link Michel Platini France Attacking Link Morten Olsen Denmark Defensive Link Osvaldo Ardiles Argentina Midfield Playmaker Patrick Battiston France Back Supporting Paul Breitner Germany Midfield Playmaker Peter Shilton England Goalkeeper Preben Elkjaer Larsen Denmark Forward Goalscorer Rafael Gordillo Spain Wide Defensive Link Rinat Dasaev Soviet Union Goalkeeper Socrates Brazil Attacking Link Soren Lerby Denmark Midfield Supporting Toninho Cerezo Brazil Midfield Supporting Ubaldo Fillol Argentina Goalkeeper Uli Stielike Germany Defensive Link Willy Van De Kerkhof Netherlands Midfield Supporting Zbigniew Boniek Poland Forward Playmaker Zico Brazil Forward Playmaker Qualified Pantheon Falcao Brazil Midfield Supporting Jean Tigana France Midfield Supporting Junior Brazil Wide Defensive Link Karl-Heinz Rummenigge Germany Forward Goalscorer Michel Platini France Attacking Link Peter Shilton England Goalkeeper Rinat Dasaev Soviet Union Goalkeeper Ubaldo Fillol Argentina Goalkeeper Zico Brazil Forward Playmaker
I don't think Romero qualifies as an all-time great. He had a good season or two in Brazil at a time when standards were already dropping, got injured and wasn't the same again. Flopped in Europe. Do players like Tarantini and Socrates have the necessary amount of great seasons?
I Romerito and Tarantini who identified two players I struggled with quite a bit, although I do not belive I had Tarantini as ATG. Romerito does have issues with longevity as you said. He has a good five season run in Brazil playing at a very high level for the national and club team. I think the Brazilian league is still strong until after the 1986 WC. It weakens some after 82 but I think is still a top league until 86, so Romerito's best accomplishments happen when the league is still strong in 84 and 85. Outside of that his club football is reletively weak but in 1979 he plays such a large and distinguished national team schedule I would count that as another season of significant positive contribution to make 6 seasons leaving him one short of the seven needed for all time great. He has four seasons with the Cosmos from 80-83. I do not really rate what is happening in that league as important but again he is still good for the national team during this time, especially in 83. Socrates seems solid in my book. The five season run from 79-83 seems indisputably good to me. To make the final two seasons of significant positive contribution to meet the seven required I think 86 clearly qualifies with a solid world cup and domestic achievement. Then he was good with Corinthians in 84 before moving to Fiorentina, and then good with the national team in 85. He is also good domestically from 76-78.
What a joke that Romerito is an all-time great while Arnold Mühren and later Van Persie (all-time topscorer for top 5 team of the last 50 years, top 3 overseas scorer in EPL) are not, by this logic and yardsticks. The triple handicaps in full glory again... (or in case of the big tribes: a second chance decades after the facts). I'm sure for the 1990-2020 period England will end up with many more 'all-time greats', despite them being less successful at national team level and with far fewer players starting in 3 CL/UEFA Cup finals or more... If Romerito is an all-time great then Salah, Mane and who else are already way past that.
Did the Dutch have a policy against selecting players abroad at this time, or were A. Muhren and Thijssen just not selected more based on merit, because the only thing holding them back is the lack of a meaningful national team career during their prime.
The Brazilian league received it's final death blow when the 82 generation bailed out en masse. It was a 50-team clusterfunk where Serginho Chulapa was the top striker. Yes, they had a top player around here and there, but mostly it had descended into a violent orgy of unpunished hacking. Zico would be the first to say how terrible it was. Can't for the life of me find Romero's five top seasons anywhere. It's more like two, but ok. I expect to see Litmanen in the list of all-time greats, too. I Don't see how one player gets saddled with the injured big league flop stigma, while others get to shrug it off. How is Socrates' injury-riddled 85-86 different from Litmanen in Liverpool?
I think the Romero Litmanen comparison seems good, and you are right I was not planning on Litmanen making it on account of not fulfilling 7 strong seasons, and at this point I agree Romero probably does not either, especially when you are trying to count the post 86 seasons in Brazil when Careca etc had all left in addition to the 82 Brazilian generation. I think Socrates is a little different but I will look at him some more as well.
For the Romerito's case I've to said that his best seasons were 1979, 1984 and 85. - 1979, he was seen as a wonder kid (highlighting his name as "little Romero"): Copa America and U-20 tournaments, attracting Cosmos to sign him at early 80s. - 1984, he was awarded as Bola de Prata in Brasilerao - 1985, qualified Paraguay to WC (after 30 years) as its greatest star. Resuming, it could be said that Romerito had an irregular career, with a quick research his world class seasons were, in addition to the 3 above, maybe 1 or 2 more (but not at those level).
Hi, Tom Ake Johansson was named in rest of Europe XI in 1965. He did not play in 1958 World Cup due to broken leg (Is it not highly affected his following career ?) and he spent his entire domestic career in Sweden. That is strange as all top-class Nordic players had a trend t play in Series A from 1950s to early 1960s. The point is he seemingly never prove himself in any higher standard of competition. Norkopping in his era was always eliminated in preliminary or first round and most of them concede a number of goals. In 1957, lost Red Star Belgrade 3-4, in 1961, lost Benfica 2-6 andwas beraten by Milan 3-6 in 1963. It is OK the team was defeated by Top club in Europe but there is no international career highlight for him. What is decisive factor you qualify him as all-time greats ? As well as Bengt Gustavsson, He has only 2 great seasons in Series A Based on Guerin Series old rating. He had a below average season that affected Atalanta relegated to play in Series B and also inevitably played in Series B one season. Another one I highly doubt is Igor Chislenko. I also see a source rate him in all-time USSR XI. It is very weird that he was names in top 10 Soviet footballer of the year just once and was voted at only 6th place in 1967. On the other hand, In the same year, he was voted as the second best eastern European footballer. From the survey poll conducted to Russian coach and experts, Mihail Meskhi and Slava Meterveli is always superior to him. I'm interested as there should have been more anecdotal that is persuasive to qualify him as an only qualified all-time greats for former soviet winger. Augustin Gainza : I see you didn't name him in any year of nominated players in Ballon'dor model of assumption but he has been qualified as all-time greats. I never saw and don't know this player style of play but it is interesting that he failed to score a goal in 9 Copa Del Rey Final despite scoring 119 goals in La Liga. He also did not score any goal in 1950 world cup. Surely scoring stats are not proved overall status of legend particularly of he was a great contributor of assists or chance creations. Dimitar Penev : It is always hard to rate players only played in league of small nations. I see you rarely qualify players in such a limited circumstance such as Yakimov, Dobrin, Petchovski, Gorgon, etc. So what is in the iceberg beyond sea level for Penev ?
I read that Chislenko was prefered over Metreveli at International level, because he was seen as a more modern player with better speed/athletic capability, although Metreveli was a skilled player (which I've noticed too from what I've seen - IIRC for example the 1966 World Cup 3rd Place Play-Off match, which he played after Chislenko had been sent off for reacting to Haller in the semi-final). Both of them are recognised quite often in this list of Russian football players of the season by position (Metreveli ahead of Chislenko as right winger in 1962 but of course Chislenko played at the World Cup, and then Metreveli going ahead again in 1965 which matches with his nomination as a 'top 6 player' of Eastern Europe in the East German poll you refer to, but Chislenko ahead in 1963, 1964 and 1966 and then placed among left wingers and making top 3 of those in 1967). https://translate.google.co.uk/tran...0_%D0%B2_%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A1%D0%A0&prev=search https://ru.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Список_33_лучших_футболистов_сезона_в_СССР Overall Chislenko was surely the more regular International player, especially at International tournaments, and made a bigger impact on the International stage including in the 1962 and 1966 World Cups but also other games where he had key assists. In 1967 indeed his form in International games must have been what brought him to the attention of European viewers as a whole.
For the Sweds I think an important thing to remember is there is a very modern ideal we put on older players from smaller countries that they need to play for a "big club" to be seen as a top player. I do not think that is true in the 1950s. Yes Johansson's clubs never performed to the highest level in Europe. But I think about how long he was seen as a top player. He was Sweden footballer of the Year in 1957, captain of the national team by 1956 and was seen as the countries best defender entering the world cup, losing him was seen as a major blow to the team. Then as you said as late as 1965 he is making world all star teams. I also think it is a modern idea to only rate players internationally by what they do in big tournaments, I do not think this was the case in the 50s and 60s to the degree it is now. His international resume is excellent and I do not think it is marred much by one unlucky injury before the world cup for a layer who does not appear to have any other injury issues. He had strong runs in the national team in years like 1963 where Sweden defeated West Germany, Yugoslavia, Soviet Union, and Hungary. He was part of the famous victory in England in 59 etc. He is included on numerous lists posted on this site. Similar resume for Gustavsson. Gainza was a player I wavered on as his highs do not seem as high as Basora, but looking into things more he is part of a number of lists posted here and some contemporary teams of the tournament for the 1950 WC etc. Penev and other players only playing for small nations in my view need to be one of the top player in the country and prove themselves on an international level. Penev is multiple time Bulgarian player of the year and has a strong resume internationally for both club and country. Yakimov and him have similar resumes as far as achievement for club and country internationally but Yakimov was never footballer of the year in Bulgaria.
14) Maradona and second Dutch/German Clash ~ 1985-1992 This era is defined by the the full realization of Maradona, Italian club footballs rise to dominance through massive player imports, England's banishment from European Competition, the dominance of the Dutch trio in national and club competition, and their rivalry with another strong German generation. This era also is the beginning of European club superiority over South America with almost all top players moving to Europe for club football. Players Considered Abedi Pele Ghana Attacking Link Aleksandr Zavarov Soviet Union Attacking Link Alemao Brazil Midfield Playmaker Alex McLeish Scotland Back Marking Andoni Zubizarreta Spain Goalkeeper Andreas Brehme Germany Wide Defensive Link Arnoldo Iguaran Colombia Forward Goalscorer Basile Boli France Back Marking Branco Brazil Wide Defensive Link Careca Brazil Forward Goalscorer Carlos Aguilera Uruguay Forward Playmaker Carlos Manuel Portugal Midfield Playmaker Carlos Mozer Brazil Back Marking Carlos Valderrama Colombia Midfield Playmaker Chris Waddle England Wide Attacking Link Claudio Caniggia Argentina Forward Playmaker Darko Pancev Yugoslavia Forward Goalscorer Diego Maradona Argentina Attacking Link Dragan Stojkovic Yugoslavia Attacking Link Emilio Butragueno Spain Forward Goalscorer Enzo Francescoli Uruguay Forward Playmaker Enzo Scifo Belgium Attacking Link Franck Sauzee France Midfield Playmaker Franco Baresi Italy Back Supporting Frank Rijkaard Netherlands Defensive Link Franky Van De Elst Belgium Midfield Supporting Gary Lineker England Forward Goalscorer Gerald Vanenburg Netherlands Wide Forward Gianluca Vialli Italy Forward Goalscorer Giuseppe Bergomi Italy Wide Back Giuseppe Giannini Italy Midfield Playmaker Glenn Hysen Sweden Back Marking Guido Buchwald Germany Back Marking Hans Van Breukelen Netherlands Goalkeeper Hugo Sanchez Mexico Forward Goalscorer Igor Belanov Soviet Union Forward Playmaker Ivan Nielsen Denmark Back Marking Jan Wouters Netherlands Midfield Supporting Jean-Pierre Papin France Forward Goalscorer Joao Pinto Portugal Wide Defensive Link John Barnes England Wide Attacking Link Jorge Burruchaga Argentina Midfield Playmaker Julio Cesar Brazil Back Marking Jurgen Kohler Germany Back Marking Kenny Sansom England Wide Back Kevin Ratcliffe Wales Back Marking Klaus Augenthaler Germany Back Supporting Leonel Alvarez Colombia Midfield Supporting Lothar Matthaus Germany Midfield Supporting Manuel Sanchis Spain Back Marking Marc Degryse Belgium Forward Playmaker Marco Van Basten Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Mark Hughes Wales Forward Goalscorer Michel Spain Wide Attacking Link Michel Preud'homme Belgium Goalkeeper Miodrag Belodedici Romania Back Supporting Miroslav Kadlec Czechoslovakia Back Marking Neville Southall Wales Goalkeeper Oleh Kuznetsov Soviet Union Back Marking Oleh Protasov Soviet Union Forward Goalscorer Oleksiy Mykhaylychenko Soviet Union Midfield Playmaker Oscar Ruggeri Argentina Back Marking Paolo Futre Portugal Wide Attacking Link Patrick Bonner Ireland Goalkeeper Paul Gascoinge England Midfield Playmaker Paul McGrath Ireland Back Marking Paul McStay Scotland Midfield Playmaker Peter Beardsley England Forward Playmaker Pietro Vierchowod Italy Back Marking Rabah Madjer Algeria Forward Playmaker Ray Wilkins England Midfield Supporting Rene Higuita Colombia Goalkeeper Ricardo Giusti Argentina Midfield Supporting Ricardo Gomes Brazil Back Supporting Ricardo Rocha Brazil Back Marking Richard Gough Scotland Back Marking Roberto Donadoni Italy Wide Attacking Link Roberto Mancini Italy Forward Playmaker Ronald Koeman Netherlands Back Supporting Ruben Paz Uruguay Attacking Link Rudi Voller Germany Forward Goalscorer Rune Bratseth Norway Back Marking Ruud Gullit Netherlands Attacking Link Salvatore Bagni Italy Midfield Supporting Sergei Aleinikov Soviet Union Midfield Supporting Sergio Batista Argentina Midfield Supporting Srecko Katanec Yugoslavia Back Supporting Stuart Pearce England Wide Defensive Link Terry Butcher England Back Marking Thomas Hassler Germany Attacking Link Thomas Ravelli Sweden Goalkeeper Tomas Skuhravy Czechoslovakia Forward Goalscorer Toni Polster Austria Forward Goalscorer Valdo Brazil Midfield Playmaker Walter Zenga Italy Goalkeeper Qualified All Time Great Abedi Pele Ghana Attacking Link Alemao Brazil Midfield Playmaker Andoni Zubizarreta Spain Goalkeeper Andreas Brehme Germany Wide Defensive Link Careca Brazil Forward Goalscorer Carlos Valderrama Colombia Midfield Playmaker Chris Waddle England Wide Attacking Link Diego Maradona Argentina Attacking Link Emilio Butragueno Spain Forward Goalscorer Enzo Scifo Belgium Attacking Link Franco Baresi Italy Back Supporting Frank Rijkaard Netherlands Defensive Link Gary Lineker England Forward Goalscorer Gianluca Vialli Italy Forward Goalscorer Giuseppe Bergomi Italy Wide Back Hugo Sanchez Mexico Forward Goalscorer Jean-Pierre Papin France Forward Goalscorer Jorge Burruchaga Argentina Midfield Playmaker Jurgen Kohler Germany Back Marking Lothar Matthaus Germany Midfield Supporting Marco Van Basten Netherlands Forward Goalscorer Michel Spain Wide Attacking Link Michel Preud'homme Belgium Goalkeeper Miodrag Belodedici Romania Back Supporting Neville Southall Wales Goalkeeper Oscar Ruggeri Argentina Back Marking Paul McGrath Ireland Back Marking Pietro Vierchowod Italy Back Marking Ricardo Gomes Brazil Back Supporting Ronald Koeman Netherlands Back Supporting Rudi Voller Germany Forward Goalscorer Rune Bratseth Norway Back Marking Ruud Gullit Netherlands Attacking Link Thomas Hassler Germany Attacking Link Walter Zenga Italy Goalkeeper Qualified Pantheon Andreas Brehme Germany Wide Defensive Link Diego Maradona Argentina Attacking Link Franco Baresi Italy Back Supporting Frank Rijkaard Netherlands Defensive Link Lothar Matthaus Germany Midfield Supporting Ronald Koeman Netherlands Back Supporting Ruud Gullit Netherlands Attacking Link Addressing a few issues that may come up. I felt like the Soviets/Ukrainians were deserving of one or even two players to be included on the whole, but all the players I really closely considered were lacking longevity. They all have a roughly 5 to 6 year run from 85/86 to 90 and then fall off dramatically. Francescoli is one I may receive some push back on but I have never understood his high standing. He has two good seasons in River Plate in the 80s before moving to Europe, and River goes on to win there biggest title immediately after he leaves. He has at the most two good seasons in France and maybe two in Italy before returning to South America where he has a few more good seasons but the level of competition in the mid to late 90s is now greatly reduced. On the national side he has a few good Copa Americas where few if any teams are taking their best players and fails at every world cup. Barnes is another player that for me there is just not enough there despite the high four year peak from 88-91. Never rally proves himself outside the domestic level, failing to make an impact with the national team and never playing in European competitions during his prime, although this is obviously not his fault. I know Liverpool fans claim the 88 team was better than the previous Liverpool teams, and who knows they may have won the EC if given a chance but we just do not know. Donadoni may be another I receive push back on, and I would welcome input. I am unsure of how much impact he had at his peak. I feel like he was a good player on great teams. I do not know of any cases where he famously comes through in big EC games for Milan or for Italy. He always seems to be in the background with both teams. Maybe this is incorrect, like I said input is welcome. Van Basten is the obviously exclusion from the pantheon. I feel like he deserved it on the whole but no matter how much i squinted I could not get to 10 seasons of significant positive contribution. He is in the same boat as past players like Garrincha and future players like R9 whose peak level is among the best ever but lacks longevity to make the Pantheon under these criteria.
Tom, regarding Norwegian Trio in the 1930s, Juve-Brustad-Kvammen, I see you qualified only the first two. What is a key factor Kvammen disqualified ? https://www.bigsoccer.com/threads/all-time-greatest-players-kicker-july-1941.2080788/page-3 According to above link, Kicker described Kvammen as the best player of Scandinavia while Juve and Brustad were not mentioned. Brustad is anyway the only player from these three to have played in Rest of Europe XI but the selection of such an all-stars team was not entirely based on ability level and was also depend on availability of players. Look at Norwegian football format at that time, the competition was very limited to build such an all-time greats. The Norwegian cup is available in very single year during these players' time. However, the Norwegian championship in tournament format (district league and championship play-off) was just started in 1937 and available in only 3 seasons (1940 was incomplete and no championship play-off) before being interrupted by World War II and resume again in 1947. Arne Brustad played only 4 Norwegian championship, 3 for Juve and 7 for Kvammen. As standard of Norwegian district league was relatively low, Brustad and Juve had a generally successful two seasons with Lyn in 1937 - 1938 and 1939 - 1940 when Lyn finished second place in championship and first place in Norwegian district, respectively. Kvammen who played for Viking had one more successful season that the team qualified for championship play-off. Lynn won two Norwegian Cup and was eliminated in semi-final twice during Brustad's career span and Juve never won Norwegian Cup as he retired before post-war time. Viking in the era if Kvammen finished two runner-up and was also eliminated in 2 semi-final rounds. I think it is difficult to rate such player under this limited circumstance impacted their longevity and they also didn't lead their team to dominate domestic football although I am amazed how could they shine at international football.
The obvious first exclusion is Valderrama. The guy stunk up the European scene for years and years. Players like Barnes and Donadoni were worth a dozen Valderramas. I would also pick both over somebody like Alemao, who struck me more as a hard worker type. Does Burruchaga have the required number of seasons? Seems closer to a one tournament guy than seven great seasons. Again if Barnes and Donadoni get such scrutiny... Abedi Pele, where are his seven? Ruggeri is another one who flopped when he finally had a chance of actual club glory. I'm glad you've broken through the common illusion of pantheon-class Francescoli. What about his namesake Scifo? Seemed to alternate between great and crap.
Well as discussed before and not saying this for the first time; It was in the first place not a policy of not selecting 'foreign' players but a difficulty in releasing them (for example Metgod for Real Madrid and Nottingham Forest). To various degrees this applied to many countries. One of the reasons why Van Breukelen returned home was that he could prolong his national team career, instead of losing his place. Although this problem of releasing also applied to domestic based players. Before the crucial France 1981 match the KNVB (national coach Rijvers) wanted a training camp as preparation, which the French also did, but there were all sorts of difficulties in pulling it off and nothing came off it. 1057719960653496320 is not a valid tweet id The Dutch had some wilderness years but were still producing excellent players and of course eventually recovered. You don't see Austria and Hungary ever recovering.— Beyond The Last Man (@BeyondTLM) May 6, 2020 Rijvers used 49 different players in 21 games; his predecessor Zwartkruis (+ stand-in Baan) 54 different players in 28 games. Read this sentence again. Needless to say that this was not ideal. For all the failed campaigns (1982, 1984, 1986) they were however bested by a later semi-finalist and finalist, and for the 1985 play-off the two best attackers were suspended. Hence the low point in the Elo ranking was 15th in 1984 (9th in 1983, 10th in 1985). The main weakness in the early 1980s was the lack of an adequate center forward, one who could do a bit more than scoring goals. Those came in the 2nd half of the 1980s and also after that there was a steady supply. This has always been a crucial position for being competitive. I'd say the by far worst qualification campaigns since 1970 have been 2002 and 2016 (2018 not so bad because later champions France was in the group, and a Sweden as well that could get results against several elite teams; in the infamous 1-4 game vs France in 2017 VvD among others wasn't playing). Personally I'm not really sure whether Frans Thijssen is an 'all-time great' (of his own country). In awards one can argue he did better than Mühren and also better than someone like Ardiles in awards (a more fancied player from a marketable place), and he has also a decent ending of his career. That he was a rare foreigner to become player of the year in perhaps the best and most successful league in the world at the time is a decent accomplishment and some sort of a breakthrough, a barrier that was broken. Awards are often dandy anyway and originally meant to sell papers; the more exotic and more shoes you can sell the better (why are many in december rather than end of the season?). I can think of plenty of examples where the awards are quite obviously flawed (Raheem Sterling last year, with British journalist admitting they voted for him because of 'the story'; Maldini post-2000 with a so-so defensive record; Buffon in 2017 with very little to back it up). To me Arnold Mühren was simply the more well-rounded and considered player (although near the end of his career Thijssen played with some applause and uplifting success as a sweeper), didn't lean as much on explosiveness and agility either. The man is a few months older than Neeskens but was part of several European finals for different teams (Ajax, Twente, Ipswich, Ajax again and Netherlands in 1988), and managed to score in FA Cup finals (for Manchester United) when it was still a big thing. When he played against Ireland in 1988 you can hear Jimmy Hill talking about his "sweet left foot", and he remains the oldest Oranje player to assist a goal in a major tournament. One can argue that back then the leagues differed more from each other (in style) than now, so it was harder to adapt to various teams and leagues. When he retired e.g. World Soccer and Shoot! mentioned him on the cover, while Thijssen didn't get the same treatment (not that this says it all, but in combination with the rest...). Spoiler (Move your mouse to the spoiler area to reveal the content) Show Spoiler Hide Spoiler International achievements: With Ajax: * European Cup 1973 winner Intercontinental Cup UEFA Super Cup With FC Twente: * UEFA Cup 1975 finalist Cup Winners Cup 1978 semi finalist (losing vs trophy winner Anderlecht) With Ipswich Town: Cup Winners Cup 1979 quarter finalist (losing vs trophy winner Barcelona - FCB 1st UEFA trophy) * UEFA Cup 1981 winner With Manchester United: Cup Winners Cup 1984 semi finalist (losing vs trophy winner Juventus) With Ajax: * Cup Winners Cup 1987 winner Cup Winners Cup 1988 runner-up With the national team: * Euro 1988 winner (assist in final, 37 years old) League finishes: 1970-71 (Volendam): 10th 1971-72 (Ajax): 1st 1972-73 (Ajax): 1st 1973-74 (Ajax): 3rd 1974-75 (Twente): 4th 1975-76 (Twente): 4th 1976-77 (Twente): 9th 1977-78 (Twente): 4th 1978-79 (Ipwich): 6th 1979-80 (Ipwich): 3rd 1980-81 (Ipswich): 2nd 1981-82 (Ipswich): 2nd 1982-83 (Man United): 3rd 1983-84 (Man United): 4th 1984-85 (Man United): 4th 1985-86 (Ajax): 2nd 1986-87 (Ajax): 2nd 1987-88 (Ajax): 2nd 1988-89 (Ajax): 2nd Domestic Cup: KNVB Beker winner 1972, 1977, 1986, 1987 - runner-up 1975 FA Cup winner 1983, 1985 (scored in final) League Cup runner-up 1983 The opinion of Shoot! magazine halfway 1979 was (see above): "Mühren is one of the most accomplished left-sided players in the game, and he has quickly become a huge favorite at Portman Road."
"In March 1981 the Netherlands-France in a fully packed De Kuip. Netherlands with the midfield Arnold Mühren-Jan Peters-Frans Thijssen. Netherlands won the qualifying game 1-0 thanks to a Mühren goal. The Orange did not make it to the World Cup, but this was really a midfield of international top class at the time (unfortunately they only played together once). France played with Giresse but without Platini." (Thijssen couldn't play the other France game, lost 2-0)
For the Norway trio I agree it feels strange. Juve for me is the one looking at his resume on paper it is the best. Juve has a whole successful run with the national team from 28-33 where he is the teams center forward. He scores 32 times in 26 games. The team also has a strong run of results asserting themselves above the Sweds and Denmark, as well as playing well vs Germany, the Swiss, and the Dutch. Then he moves to center half and is made captain of the team in the late 30s where he excels and is part of the teams success with Brustad and Kvammen. Brustad from what I read had the highest peak and lost the most in the war. Kvammen has the most longevity, but that additional post war time he plays does not mean much in my eyes as Norway are bad post war. He also has a poor scoring record for the national team. When analyzing players from this small of a national it all comes down to international matches for me in analysis, especially those vs the other better continental teams. That is one thing going for Brustad, he has clear star moments against better continental opposition. I also saw a pole rating him as the best Norwegian player pre WWII. Also Juve is in the Kicker article you linked. Maybe all three are relatively equal but put us hard for me to put to many players in from a smaller national team who is clearly below the top continental sides even is they steal a result off of them periodically. I will reconsider this at some point.