I think that is a fantasy. None of those guys are effective forwards in MLS (and Pavon wasn't a big scorer anywhere he has played). But lets look at the data: when playing w/o Zlatan this season we are 2-3-0, average only 0.8 g/gm and allow 1.6 g/gm (in total we were outscored 8-4). With Zlatan starting we are 11-8-2, average 1.48 g/gm and allow 1.42 (in total we outscore opponents 31-30). So based on a limited sample (but all we've got) with Zlatan we win more, score more and play better defense.
That's because we are set-up to play with Zlatan, obviously. That is my point. I'm not talking about playing with Zlatan vs. without, but the opportunity cost of Zlatan vs. another potential DP-caliber forward. The conversation went to Donovan / Keane's leadership styles vs. Zlatan's -- I'm comparing them on-field and what they offer as strikers. I think either of those two make this a more dangerous and dynamic team, offensively. I'm not saying cut Zlatan and replace him Pavon or Alessandrini or Lletget. I'm saying another type of striker makes those guys more dangerous, even if he individually may score fewer goals. This is my critique of Zlatan.
I misunderstood your argument then. So you are basically arguing that with a different lethal, more mobile forward like Keane or Donovan we would be performing better. Maybe - but I don't the see the data for this. Neither Keane nor Donovan played without another superstar on the team and sometimes they had two. Let's look at the pre-Ibra resumes of our non-Pavon midfielders and forwards: Lletget: Stopped scoring at the end of his first season. In his 34 games (26 starts) in 2016 & 2017 he had one goal. Pontius: 2 goals in 30 games (27 starts) in 2017. He had 6 assists though (and a goal and 3 assists this season) and I think that (if healthy) he should be getting more late sub playing time. F. Alvarez: 5 goals in 45 games in Argentina. Antuna: 0 goals in 20 games in the Eriedivisie, a pretty soft league. Corona: 12 goals in 258(!) games spanning 10 seasons, many of these on loan to second division teams. (0 goals in 21 starts this season.) E. Alvarez (only 2019 available): 0 goals in 3 starts. Plays too slowly and hasn't shown the mobility or the work rate needed for first team success. Hopefully will improve. Cuello and Zubak: Neither are first team bench level, much less starters. So add it up and our non-Ibra, non-Pavon midfield/forwards resumes include 20 goals over 390 games. Eight non-Corona goals. Some of them are decent MLS midfielders (mainly F. Alvarez) but otherwise they are mostly offensive black holes. And that is why it is a miracle we are where we are. Neither Donovan nor Keane would be able to carry this bunch any better than Zlatan has.
I somehow missed this Friday gem. As quoted by ESPN Zlatan said: “[Pavon] is very good, he is too good for MLS. I think MLS will not have him for a long time, we should enjoy him while he is here. Wtf??????? Just after I defended Ibra and his offensive contributions I come across this. Sorry Rohaun888 this isn't an example of constructive criticism and high standards. It's a cheap shot and it's getting ridiculous. He needs to shut the hell up. Ibra isn't a naive ingenue. He knows his quotes go around the world and they have a lot of power. When he decided to come to MLS he needed to bring his passion and heart with him. He should have been a positive ambassador like Donovan, Becks and Keane were. Instead he is now a condescending anti-MLS europhile. Last season I was on the Ibra train and amused by Ibra's braggadocio. I liked him and took it as an entertaining tongue in cheek part of his persona. But this season.... One or two ill worded quotes can happen but this was no accident. So f' it and f' him. For me he is now a necessary evil until the end of this season. Then I want to see his ass moving out of here as quickly as possible.
To be fair Zlatan has been bringing down a lot of balls in the box lately to other players like Favio and now Pavon. There have been more crosses that heads to the top of the box to a waiting team mate. Also what I have seen from him lately is that he is now celebrating with his team and making sure the guy with the assist gets some love. It’s nice to see that because before he was very into the personal celebration.
Rooney has also now thrown some "shade" or "clapped" back (right use??? Sorry I'm not a millennial) at MLS regarding its policy on chartered flights. I think the league should likely be at a point now where it can operate like normal 1st tier professional leagues and let teams fly charter instead of just 4 legs per season.
He’s bagging on the league? Is that what the millennials say? That makes sense and I think it’s constructive. There is so much traveling over such a large distance in this league.
Bitching (rightfully imo) about MLS failing to provide or even allowing team charters is a lot different than saying your new teammate is too good for MLS. (I know you weren’t saying they were the same - just pointing out that it is a good example of the difference between constructive criticism and undermining shade.)
I can understand not wanting MLS to be a feeder league and I have posted against this many times over the years. However, as someone else here pointed out to me, there are only a few clubs worldwide that aren't in reality feeders. Look around the league, leading young talents are transferring out of MLS with some regularity. Almiron, Miazga, Steffen and Yedlin went to the EPL, Adams went to Leipzig and I am sure that there are others. For example, there is a rumor that LAFC will lose Rossi after the season. You can bemoan this (and I will join you), but this is the trend of things and not something that Zlatan is making up to piss us off. You should also consider that the Galaxy only have Pavon for a loan through the end of this year and options for a future loan and a purchase after that. Depending upon the exact terms of those options it's possible that Boca could sell him without any concern for the Galaxy's wishes. In fact the better he does the more likely this becomes.
Yes, many players have left MLS and gone to Europe. That’s nothing new. The issue is Zlatan’s words. He doesn’t need to say Pavon’s “too good for MLS,” but he does.
I agree with Skydog in that your argument is based on a Fantasy. Zlatan by himself is the equivalent of Landon and Robbie combined. For example, if Zlatan can stay in the starting lineup, he is on pace to score 28 goals during the regular season, that's more than Landon and Robbie ever did on a combined basis except for 2014 when they had 29. That year was also Gyasi's career year so he drew a fair bit of defender attention. If you take away 2014 and look at some other years, typical production from the Galaxy's third leading scorer was a maximum of 7 goals. That's not all that different from the 6 goals the Galaxy have gotten this far from Flavio and Steres.
One last thing to get off my chest. Pavon is not too good for MLS. He's not as good as Landon Donovan. He's not as good as Keane was when he came here. He's not as good as Vela is now. Not as good as Josef Martinez. Hell Giovinco was better as well. And they all thrived in MLS. And not one was known for bitching about the league. Call me crazy - it's almost like these better players liked being in MLS.
To be fair to Pavon, he's not the one running his mouth. So far he's worked his butt off and really helped the team. I know you weren't saying otherwise, but just wanted to make that clear.
Not sure why you excluded Alessandrini or Pontius' relevant 2018 season with this team (5 G, 6 A). In general, I can't make assertions about players based on games I've never seen, not knowing what positions they've played etc. I'm assessing what I've seen them do in a Galaxy shirt. I do know Favio is already on 3 goals for this club already. I think Lletget can score goals if he's put in the right position (scored this year for the USA), Efra can score, just hasn't done it at MLS level yet. Joe Corona is the current holder of CONCACAF GOTY; he also scored twice in the Gold Cup playing with Donovan. He's not a scorer, but he can drop in a goal once in awhile, same as Jonathan. I'm just going by what I see in games. This midfield would be the best Donovan or Keane ever played with and is one of the best in MLS now. Without adding Alessandrini back. He likes to make it seem that way, but Zlatan isn't playing with scrubs.
I disagree; I think you're being tricked by stat inflation. Unless you also think Josef Martinez is the best striker in MLS history (I don't). Since the arrival of TAM/GAM, a lot more goals have been scored in MLS in general as offenses took a big leap since 2014-15 and defensive upgrades have been marginal. In what would've been Donovan/Keane's prime (up until 2013 or so) it was rare for the MLS Golden Boot winner to breach 20 goals. Vela's on 24 as we speak. Case in point, Keane's best season stat-wise was in 2015, but I don't think that was his best year performance-wise. And that's my point: if prime Donovan and Keane were playing in MLS today with a team with this much attacking talent, they'd be on double digit G/A easily. Re: Gyasi's "career year", that proves my point: playing next to Keane and Donovan, Zardes was a Golden Boot contender. He's only had one season as good since. You could say the same about Edson Buddle; came 2nd in the boot race playing next to Donovan and never reached those heights again. And that's my point. You don't need a striker to single-handedly score 30 goals if they can help the guys around them pitch in 3-5 goals each.
Another point on stat inflation: there are also, obviously more games as well. Looking at past Galaxy Golden Boot winners: When Landon won the boot in '08 he score 20 in 25 matches (80%) of a possible 30 matches (66%) Last year, Zlatan scored 22 in 27 matches (81%) of a possible 34 matches (64%) In 2002, Carlos Ruiz scored 24 in 26 matches (92%) of possible 28 games played (85%)
My understanding is that you were arguing that Zlatan is holding these players' offensive production back so I presented their history w/o him. That is why I excluded Pontius 2018 season and Favio's 2109 season. I excluded Alessandrini because he's been injured and only played 280 minutes in 2019. If he ever was able to recover his health and acceleration from 2 or 3 years ago he of course would be a great offensive weapon. Also scoring a goal of the year isn't evidence that a player is a reliable scorer, especially when they have 9 seasons and 257 games arguing otherwise. I feel like I'm arguing with a shifting target. Your points about Pontius being better in 2018 and Favio having a whole 3 goals this season don't support your initial point that Zlatan is holding these guys back. I don't think he is - they just aren't great scorers. Finally I don't agree that you can't assess players based on games you haven't seen. When Gio came to LAG I thought it was a mistake because he had a long history of not being productive. Klein thought that history was not relevant - after all remember that great GC goal! Same thing when people were pushing the promotion of GII players to the first team. I hadn't watched them play much but I saw they weren't scoring in USL and I knew it wasn't likely they would do better against better, faster and stronger opponents. Not rocket science but fans always like new and shiny. Keane came to us with a long record of scoring at a high rate and sure enough he did the same for us. Past production is a very good indicator of future production, with some adjustments for the tails of the age spectrum. There have been a few isolated exceptions - Wondo went from unproductive forward to scoring machine pretty shocking pretty much everyone. But those instances are very rare.
Pavon has indeed worked his butt off and seems very eager to contribute. That is even more reason for me to be bothered by Zlatan running down the league. You are a new player, all excited and the team star immediately tells the press you are too good for the team and the league? (Btw, I realize this is not a major deal. Pavon is his own man hopefully and none of this matters. Just throwing my opinion out there.)
But the way he said it was still pretty condescending. Something like (paraphrasing) "Looking forward to a 12 hour travel day. We could do it in 6 but that's MLS!". I appreciate the travel issues but "that's MLS" carries clear tones of "how typical of this stupid league!". I can only imagine what the reaction in England would have been if Arsene Wenger had openly mocked the approach to nutrition in the EPL or if Ruud Gullit had stood shaking his head at defenders hoofing the ball into touch. Both noted those things as issues but did so constructively. It's starting to feel like these stars are becoming like Beckham in his early spell here, where he clearly assumed that nobody, much less the fans, followed the game with any level of seriousness. While I've never condoned booing somebody who's playing for your team, I've always felt like that hostile reception when he got back from Milan, alerted him to the fact that there was more to our support than casuals and screeching Beckham groupies. ...I wonder what Sanda's doing these days.
No other player in Galaxy history has the gameday ceiling Zlatan has (i.e. vs. LAFC) but he has other performances that are far below DP caliber. I think it's overlooked that as a striker, Zlatan doesn't give you a lot when he's not scoring, which he failed to do in 8 of the 21 regular season matches he's played this season (0G, 0A, in fact). -Hold-up play? This midfield can out-possess most squads in MLS. It only needs hold-up play BECAUSE we play with Zlatan. -Does he create for others? Not really. How can we write off any other scorers when no one else is getting chances to score. It's not like he's constantly playing guys in and they're missing. Guys like Lletget whose shown he can score passes up shots to pass to Zlatan. Ibra also drags defenders into the center channel, where guys like Antuna or Pavon would cut in to shoot, causing many shots to be blocked or deflected. -Defense? Does what he's able to, but can't really contribute to a team press. Replacing him with prime Donovan / Keane (for example) would be a downgrade in sheer lethality, but look at these other facets of striker game that're suddenly back on the table: -Team press -Runs behind the defense (beating the offside trap) -Counter-attacks -False 9 / Dropping deep / Playmaking -Wing interchange (remember Keano's famous dribbles from the wing) These options would make us more dynamic offensively and make our other attacking components more dangerous and less predictable. But rare instances can be relevant and instructive: as I mentioned, Zardes and Buddle were two players who had exceptional seasons due to the personnel around them. Same with Gio. Alessandrini has been more productive in LA than anywhere else previously.