At least you have acknowledged this critical detail. most players who do abruptly fall off performance-wise after 2-3 good seasons sometimes has got nothing to do explicitly with their game but often there are other external factors affecting it and therefore it is not the players fault and hence would be unfair to down rate such players simply because of a observed fall off performance after 2-3 good seasons. e.g. a change in managerial tactical reasons like having a 1st striker suddenly taking 2nd striker roles, transferring out to a new league and not being able to settle immediately with the new environment, lets not forget about change in fitness or even injuries [Kaka Milan to Madrid transfer comes to mind], change in supportive players e.g. a striker dependent on a prolific feeder/winger/playmaker. This latter example could be envisioned in a hypothetical scenario if Suarez all of a sudden lost Neymar/Messi/Iniesta in the next season? Would he keep his prolific scoring as he used to? What I am saying is that @carlito86 tend to judge players performances mainly and mostly by stats numbers instead of digging deeper into other factors effecting a players performance on pitch. I am not saying that Carlito is in the wrong here but there are many other external factors which should weigh in any analysis before reaching conclusions.
how is Cavani rated? top 5 or top 10 striker today? what about Benzema? For me it's been Suarez, Lewandowski, Ibrahimovic as top strikers for the past few years. (Zlatan being the best overall the past decade).
As a pure goalscorer, I actually rate him very highly. His form with Napoli was very good. Had he not have to play second fiddle to Ibra for most of his time at PSG, I reckon he'd be a 30+ goals striker in Ligue 1 during those yeard. He could potentially have had 3 consecutive seasons of 30+ goals for Napoli, followed by 4 consecutive seasons of 40+ goals for PSG. That is consistency of a very high quality. Also, Cavani does a lot of running, defensively.
a striker that has scored 40 goals in a single season a the rate of a goal a game is merely a top 5-10 striker according to you might I remind only 6 strikers across all 5 major European leagues have hit 40+ goals in a single season during the 21st century Mario gomez Klaas-Jan Huntelaar ruud van nistelrooy luis suarez zlatan ibrahimovic Edison cavani and then of course you have cavani's forgotten episode at Napoli where he was widely considered a top 3 undisputed striker in the world alongside zlatan ibrahimovic radamel falcao robin van persie and non other(and by most accounts superior to his compatriot luis suarez during 2010-2012) and it is exactly as you just previously alluded to; had cavani been played in his original position at psg over the last couple of seasons instead of having to play as a wf and rarely as a striker when ibrahimovic was injured I have no doubt whatsoever that he would've averaged a minimum of 30-40 goals per season(every season)
all of these reasons are acceptable and correct. and i'm 100% sure that you could make even more good cases to back up your claim then i am giving for the other point. and more often than not, i think these factors affect most players in which you would be correct. and of course, i would not count this against a player like R9. and in his defense after getting injured, he did come back and win a world cup and played extremely well. however, why is it that at real madrid, there were a few years where he was overweight. how could that be playing at such a level? kaka got his injury during real madrid while he was still under performing at the time. i believe he played the majority of the 1st season with no injury and it was not till after the season was over that he had surgery. in CR7s case, he hit the ground running on the same real madrid team, all factors being equal. suarez was performing fantastically at a team like liverpool, far below the level talent at barcelona. and to be honest, he looked like even more of a star because more of the responsibility was given to him. and the closest chance that liverpool, had of winning the league is when suarez was on the team before he got injured. in the same token (or however the phrase goes), a player like xavi was very unfortunate that he had to wait so long to get a coach like guardiola who has able to fully utilize his talents. however, when i look at a player like messi, i still see him performing at an incredibly high level even if he were to go to a team like man city. the reason, i say this is because messi has changed roles quite a bit at barcelona. a very possession oriented team like barcelona under guardiola, to a much more direct team under enrique, and even in a down season with injuries and a coach like tata where they won nothing, he still had a remarkable 40+ goals. and yet, it's still regarded as a low point in his career. and even now, he is no where near the goal mentality freak that he was before, he still has an incredible amount of goals. i noticed that also about @carlito86. but i also realized that he is more level headed then i used to think. and even if i don't agree with everything he says, he makes a lot of good points in general
i agree with @LouisianaViking07/09 ok, @carlito86, you make a good point, cavani was out of position. but ibrahimovic has left and what does cavani have to show for it? i mean, honestly, this is where i agree @greatstriker11. you gotta start putting goals into context cavani could have scored 40+ goals the last 4 seasons like he has this season but that does not change his status for me. he is still exactly, the same caliber player this season as he was in the last 3 seasons at PSG, where he scored less goals. and this is where you have to put goals into context. with all those 40+ goals, what has PSG done differently this season, than when he was scoring 25-30 goals the last 3 seasons??? your answer: nothing. they are still stuck winning trophies in france and PSG is still stuck at the same exact caliber. as a matter of fact, they have become less dominant in the french league. psg used to win ligue 1, practically in March, or the beginning of April, and now they are struggling to even get in 1st place, despite having signed a player like Draxler. Cavani can score 100+ goals in the next 3 seasons, but if they still can't win a champions league and are still struggling to win the french league, then his goals are meaningless.
Cavani defends a lot for a striker too (more than any other striker maybe, he even racks some balls at his 16 meters).
I never got why PSG couldn't play both Zlatan and Cavani up top together. why was Cavani needed on the wing? I think a lot of us give extra credit to Zlatan due to the fact he's 35 and a lot of his insanely scoring stats happened after he was 30 (though Ligue 1 is the 5th/6th best league in Europe). I don't mean to knock Cavani as he is world class but he'd be top 5 for me. He scores goals but he seems to also miss easy chances where he could easily add onto his stats. so for the strikers during the time Zlatan has become world class (the past 12 years or so) I'd rank Suarez, Lewandowski, Falcao, maybe RVP as the few who could have hung with him. He's def now the best striker at United. Probably far better than Rooney ever was (and def now). though just my opinion Again I admire prior to getting the captaincy for Sweden 2010 he had scored 23goals in 62 matches. Not bad considering. In 2010 (right around qualifying for Euro 2012) his stats increased. 3 goals in 4 matches in 2010, 3 goals in 11 matches in 2011 (not sure what happened here), 11 goals in 8 matches in 2012. Overall from 2010 forward he scored 40 goals in 54 matches. Now some things changed. Larsson was gone from the NT. The quality of players he played with decreased so maybe he took it upon himself to get more things done. 3 assists prior to 2010. 14 since.
League titles of some notable players (with at least one achieved in a strong league): Giggs - 13 Ibrahimovic - 13* Baia - 12 Gento 12 Eusebio - 11 Scholes - 11 Cruijff - 10 Dalglish - 10 Di Stefano - 10 Pirri - 10 Puskas - 10 Robben - 10 * includes the revoked titles of 2004-05 and 2005-06 by Juventus. There are only 5 players in history with more league titles than Ibrahimovic; those played in Norway, Egypt, UAE, Guatamala, Czechoslovakia and Czech Republic. Also notable is that Zlatan achieved two 2nd places (2002-03, 2011-12). Be it luck or skill, or both, between 2002 and 2016 he has an uninterrupted series of 2nd and 1st place. It was small news here yesterday that Robben became the Dutch player with the most league titles. He has 2nd places in 2003-04, 2006-07, 2008-09, 2011-12 (4 times). His countryman had them in 1968-69, 1970-71, 1975-76, 1976-77 and 1977-78 (5 times). So with that applied as numerical tiebreaker Robben has one to go..
1. Ronaldo 2. Gerd Müller 3. Marco van Basten 4. Romario 5. Sándor Kocsis 6. Uwe Seeler 7. Leónidas da Silva 8. Arsenio Érico 9. Josef Bican 10. Zlatan Ibrahimovic The next players are Dixie Dean, Ademir De Menezes, Gunnar Nordahl, Guyla Zsengeller and John Charles ... but to be honest I have to study more about them.
1.)Pele (he was clearly a striker for a large portion of his career and specifically during his generally recognized peak period 58-65) http://www.pressreader.com/uk/the-daily-telegraph-sport/20071030/281522221729269i 2.) eusebio 3.) puskas 4.) Ronaldo El fenomeno 5.) gerd Muller 6.) Marco van basten 7.) Thierry Henry 8.)Sándor Kocsis 9.)telmo zarra 10.)Gigi Riva http://www.fifa.com/fifa-tournaments/players-coaches/people=44569/profile.htm 11.)Jimmy greaves 12.)Hugo Sanchez (5 consecutive la Liga titles while being top scorer every single year Was also a scorer of some of the most spectacular goals in football history His 1989/1990 league season is arguably not inferior to any peak season by lewandowski, Ibrahimovic and yes even Suarez() 38 goals in 35 games which included 6 direct freekicks and only 3 penalties) And all his other goals were 1 touch finishes(not just tap ins) It also doubtful that his peak was higher than to a host of other strikers ie Roberto bettego Luis suarez Andriy shevchenco Emillio Butragueño Ibrahimovic has been a legendary scorer at league level winning several titles in many European leagues Ibrahimovic doesn't qualify as a top 10 all time striker for 2 simple reasons A.)Most of his club goals have been scored in "weak Leagues"(ranked 4th and 5th in Europe like serie a post 2006, Ligue 1, eredivisie etc) B.)he has never dominated a big club (top 10 in Europe) in a important match (4 goals against england in a international friendly and isolated goals scored in the CL knockout stages don't count) C.) his performance in the champions league knockout stages is really shocking for a player of his caliber even when compared to lesser talented strikers like Samuel eto'o and even ruud van nistelrooy Note If you include arthur friedenreich than why not Leonidas and Fernando Peyroteo(pre war legends shouldn't be included IMO)
No love for Zlatan's countryman, Nordahl? Nordahl's 5 times Capocannoniere Serie A record is still unbroken and while now he's 3rd on the all time goalscorers list, he has by far the best gpg. Not to mention that he was successful internationally as well, winning 2 Latin Cups (pre-cursor of the European Cup) with Milan and the Olympic Gold Medal with Sweden (probably meant more than it does in the present day context). But I agree, Zlatan surely has some gaps in his resume due to his international record (both club and country), in spite of being one of the most talented strikers to ever play the game. And while he is probably a great shout for a domestic league only XI, his overall record makes deciding his placement among other strikers, a rather difficult activity.
Pelé, Puskás and Eusébio were forwards in their primes. Then, thanks to mention Thierry Henry, I forgot him in this list but in all time ranking I put him between the places 51-60 ... it means he would be the 5th best striker probably but I need to review it again. About Zlatan Ibrahimovic, he has been very regular and consistent throughout his entire career from Ajax until today ... actually I have considered him in a general top ten in 6 years (or maybe 7). His performances playing by Inter de Milan and AC Milan were very high to be honest and his impact in those teams was remarkable ... even in PSG continued being world-class and recently playing by Manchester United too.
Isn't there like a whole thread dedicated to classifying Pele as an attacking midfielder? No Romario means it's hard to take the list seriously anyway.
This is where I disagree with you Tell me how you differentiate between a forward and a striker? Eusebio/puskas where complete strikers and there are even reports puskas was something akin to a playmaker In his young days in Hungary. My problem here is A playmaking striker like r9(1997/98) was always classified as a striker (even though he wore the number 10 shirt during his best season) From what I have seen and also read eusebio as phenomenal as he was did not add to his team's attack anymore than r9 so why should he be ranked a forward as opposed to a striker Puskas could and should be ranked as a forward just not IMO during his overweight period with real madrid(he was still a legendary scorer but clearly less mobile)
Why should romario make a top 10 all time list for strikers?(you have not made your case) Could you tell me what romario achieved individually at club level that should have him automatically ranked above thierry Henry Romario had one elite club season during his career(93/94) Henry had 3(arguably 4 where he was the undisputed best striker in the world) Thierry Henry's prolific goalscoring and record assists propelled arsenal to multiple league titles and a champions league final The bulk of romarios european goals have been.scored in questionable leagues(eredivisie wasn't even a top 3 league in Europe during the early 90s Serie a,ligue 1 and la liga all easily ranked above If you have evidence pointing to the contrary I would like to see it) Henry sustained a slightly lesser peak for much longer than romario(longevity vs consistency) All im saying is romarios position as a top 10 striker isn't a given and there are a number of factors that come into play Ie A.)His short peak as the best st in world football B.)Scoring less than 50 of his club goals in a recognized top league B.)His unimpressive record In the champions league C.)Failing to take over/dominate any international comp His 94 wc only proved he could score goals at the highest level He did not add much to his teams attack beyond scoring( Chances created and dribbling runs) This is why his wc performance is imo a clear rung below eusebio 66
Here we go again with agenda's and hatred on your part. I am not going to compare him with Eusebio. But I will criticise you for ranking R9, a striker I regard highly, at 4th place while completely ignoring Romario to not even cut it to a long list. And this to me is another proof of your agenda and dislike for certain players you simply are not fond of. here are my respond to your A to E points above; A.)His short peak as the best st in world football. This is incorrect about Romario's peak. Romario was ranked 7th in 1992/93, 1st in 1993/94 (in which he won FIFA best player of the year), and then, even after he left Europe while playing in Brazil he was still ranked 10th place in the world in season 1995/96. That is to say, he was a top 10 player in at least 3 consecutive seasons between 92-96 in which season 93/94 he was the best player in the world. His sudden fall off the rankings was not due to his game but more to do with his voluntary departure from European football. This fact, is enough to dismiss your claims that his peak was short lived. R9 whom you ranked 4th had also a short peak as the best striker in the world. B.)Scoring less than 50 of his club goals in a recognized top league Scoring 50 goals of ones own club goals does not necessarily establish either superiority nor inferiority. You have to put things in context, which you always have lacked in your biased posts. Romario was never on average a stat padder to stack up stats. He was a striker that scored in important matches against important opponents. Scored when needed. You do not need 50 goals a season to be considered a great striker. Especially not when we put things in context e.g. considering the difference between European football of the 80's/90's to today's standards, which you always fail to include in your shallow analysis. In any case, in season 93/94, Romario scored 30 individual goals out of 90 team goals for Barca. That is to say he scored 1/3 of Barca goals in what was arguably considered to be a top 2 best league in the world. That, by itself, is a great feat to achieve. (sadly one feat you want to erase) Besides, Out of those 30 goals, his contributions along with that of Stoichkov, was crucial to win La Liga title in 94. He scored many important goals against the top 4 teams in the race for the title. Including the goal that made the difference in the 2nd half vs Sevilla on the final day of the league. Something R9 (which you've ranked 4th) never did for Barca in 96/97. He failed to produce his best form against the top 3 teams in the race for 96/97 title. B.)His unimpressive record In the champions league So if Romario's UCL record was unimpressive, then R9's UCL record is even more so. He is ranked 44th on the all time best goal scorers list in the history of Champions League. Scoring 20 goals in 32 games. Until 2015 he was ranked 40th all time best scorer. Ronaldo does not even appear on the list. He won Champions League top scorer title 2 times. with 6 goals/4 games in 1989/90 and 7 goals/9 games in 1992/93. Ronaldo (which you ranked 4th) never did better then this, not even close. Ronaldo scored 14 goals/36 games. And never won top scorer titles in champions league. Yet, you rank him 4th, while Romario you do not want to see him not even on the list? Romario 20/32 = 063 GPG, Ronaldo 14/36 = 0.38 GPG. Romario has doubled Ronaldo's GPG in more or less similar match numbers. C.)Failing to take over/dominate any international comp If by international competition you mean to include WC and Copa America then you must have missed a great part of football history. Romario won Golden Ball for leading his averaged NT94 to the 4th title in 24 years since WC70. Also, Romario scored the clutch goals and assisted important goals in semi-final and final against Uruguay and Argentina (lead by Maradona) in Copa America 1989. A title, until then, they have not won since 40 years. So yes, he dominated and took over his team in WC94 and FIFA rewarded him Golden Ball. And he made major contributions to Brazil's Copa 89 title. But if international competitions is meant here to be restricted to Club football, then again you have missed a great part of football history nevertheless. Romario lead (with 11 goals) his Vasco club to win Copa Mercosur in 2000 and in the same year he destroyed Manchester United completely in the FIFA Club World Cup Brazil 2000 Group stage. Conclusion: Romario never lacked behind R9 at international level with either club and country. His 94 wc only proved he could score goals at the highest level He gave a world class dribble inside the dangers zone to create a penalty for his team vs Russia, and then in the KO he dribbled leaving 2 defenders behind in mid-field to assist Bebeto for the only goal in R16 WC94. So there are two high quality assists of him in WC94. How did you miss this? He did not win Golden Ball WC94 for merely scoring goals. For scoring goals they give out Golden/Zilver boot awards, which he won by the way. In any case, Romario's WC94 Golden Ball is at a higher level performance than R9 WC98 Golden Ball. And that's a fact. He did not add much to his teams attack beyond scoring( Chances created and dribbling runs) Says the poster who had not watched more then (perhaps) 3-4 Romario full matches in his lifetime. Here are a few matches off the top of my head that I can recall. With due diligence the list would expand substantially. Barca vs Real Madrid 93/94 home historical match. Romario's assist. Go watch it. Barca vs Manchester United 94/95 home match. Romario torn United to pieces. Go watch it. Barca vs Valencia 93/94 home and away match. Assists in both matches. Go watch them. Barca vs Atletico Madrid 93/94 home match. 2 assists to keep the scoring 5-3. Go watch it. and there are many more examples between 93-95 alone, let alone if I expand to include his entire career. Once more, you have proven to be a disingenuous poster who happens to be unapologetic and unashamed of making false claims of a player you seldom saw. @poetgooner @leadleader @celito @ko242
I've seen roughly 90% of Henry's games with Arsenal. Don't think he should be classified as a striker anyway. No real interested in going though another Romario debate lol.
i agree with all the points you said about romario. although i don't regard romario's time in brazil highly, he was definitely a top player for a number of seasons in europe. the dutch league was much better than it is today.
As a forward, for sure, but a pretty unique one, at that. I don't think there was another forward quite like him throughout the modern era (say post 1992,) up to that point in time. I could probably write an article on this, since I've given Henry and that Arsenal team a lot of thought, but my short answer is: He was a complete forward in a 'free forward' role. Don't want to derail the thread.