Okay,then talking about Ibrahimovic,the greatest Swedish player? He is without anydoubt,one of the very best in the world and modern football,won many tittles with clubs,not success in NT but this is not his fault. So how do you rank him in all time ranking?
For me he is a top 5 player of his era and a top 15-20 striker of all time This footballing era 1.)Lionel Messi 2.)Cristiano Ronaldo 3.)xavi 4.)iniesta 5.)ibrahimovic top 20 all time strikers 1.)Pele 2.)puskas 3.)Eusebio 4.)R9 5.)Gerd muller 6.)Marco van Basten 7.)Romario 8.)Karl heinz Rummenigge 9.)Hugo sanchez 10.)Thierry Henry 11.)Jimmy greaves 12.)Denis law 13.)Luigi riva 14.)Papin 15.)Gabriel Batistuta 16.)Alan shearer 17.)Zlatan ibrahimovic 18.)Didier Drogba 19.)el pistolero 20.)careca A couple of notes: Ibrahimovic has had one of the most successful careers at league level by almost any striker in my top 20 wherever he went he dominated except for Spain and that is perfectly understandable. playing for a team like Sweden eliminates any possibility of him winning international silverware . the biggest blot on his c.v is his failure in the champions league and more specifically his failure in the knockout stage despite having many a chance to prove himself he has repeatedly disappointed. For me ibrahimovic has been such a talent that had he won a single champions league trophy in his career(and been the standout player)he would've been challenging Thierry Henry for his spot in my top 10 all time strikers.
Shevchenko is not besides Thierry but I agree ibrahimovic has a case for being either on par or superior to sheva. Shevchenko of course performed in the cl at a level ibrahimovic never reached by consistently performing in the knockout stages and he(sheva) did it while playing on a stacked team(Milan) and also on a team that had much less quality(dynamo kiev) Ibrahimovic on the other had the opportunity to play on the best teams in every country he played(ajax in Holland,juventus and both milans in Italy and psg in France)despite having the platform to make an impact in the most important games of the champions league ibrahimovic has consistently failed. This imo goes against him hugely when ranking his overall position. What cannot be dismissed however is ibrahimovic has won a league in every team he has played and was the best player in nearly ever single title winning campaign(his 09/10 title is an exception of course but he definitely played a role) Imho having considered all of his pros and cons I would say that he is a modern great at the very least a top 10 -15 player of the 21st century and a top 20 striker of all time . his résumé is astonishing,his goal record speaks for itself,his talent has never been in question but his consistent failure at the highest level is what prevents him from being regarded as a "true great" by the majority of level headed football fans. Note: as for Henry and sheva the frenchman beats him in finishing,talent and by a big margin in creating(Thierry Henry made over 50 assists between 02/03-05/06) playing with teammates who simply weren't on the same level as Milan 99-07. I would be surprised if Shevchenko had 50 assists in his entire Milan career. And even moving beyond what can be captured in statistics Thierry Henry on his best day was a genius besides r9 I am pretty sure that I have never seen a striker as devastating as he was in his arsenal heyday and tbh in some respects Henry was even superior to r9(mainly creating but in finishing I believe they were also very close) as for his genius moments there are many but this one would always standout in 05/06 a season that arsenal fans would testify to you that he almost carried them on his back. His goal against real Madrid in the round of 16 was imo superior to Ronaldinho's more famous solo goal in la liga that very same season. There are others of course His goal Vs Tottenham Shevchenko simply couldn't create goals out of nothing with the same quality and consistency as Henry
I think, not completely unlike CR7, Shevchenko's mobility and dribbling ability was greater at or before the early stages of his peak form than later on. But at that stage I think it gave quite a big advantage over Ibrahimovic (and maybe this could be partly why he had more joy in the CL, with Kiev say?): I think some of his best solo goals (there are some more Kiev ones I'm sure - there was even a video with better ones a few years ago, as well as another more recently with dribbling etc from Kiev days) such as in the Ukrainian Cup Final or vs Juventus in 2001, match up ok with Henry's. But generally I agree with the advantages you point out for Henry (which IMO probably do outweigh Sheva's slightly better goal instinct etc if we try to compare prime player to prime player - but maybe it is fairly close and ofc at the time they were considered close when awards were handed out and arguably like I say that was past Sheva's physical peak wheras not Henry's even if younger Henry had just not quite matured into the world star in the same way - until showing signs in about 2000 including at the Euros). But yeah I'd go with both over Ibra IMHO, whether or not he had a better touch (maybe he just had better improvisation at times but in-dribbling touches perhaps inferior actually to Henry and Sheva too, though he had the slow-pace solo wonder dribble for Ajax himself of course but that's not typical for him and his wonder goals since then tended to be more about technique and improvisation/inspiration I think didn't they).
Among technical forwards with not the best mobility and/or pace I'd say (even though arguably Ibra is more of a proper striker than any of them): Peak qualities/form- Baggio>Totti>=Cantona=Raul>=Del Piero>Ibra=Berbatov>Sheringham (and to be clear I think Sheringham was a very good player indeed with intelligence/vision as well as being a capable scorer) Consistency/longevity - Baggio>=Totti>Ibra>=Raul>=Sheringham>Del Piero>=Berbatov=Cantona For Swedish players it is difficult to compare him to some candidates because they are much older. It's hard to really gauge the peak, and indeed the consistency of someone like Nils Liedholm because it is down to guesswork, interpretation of writing, personal impression (based on limited footage, and with different ideas about how much the game has moved on and how much that is relevant etc etc). And he's quite different to a Henrik Larsson or a Tomas Brolin in terms of attributes but in terms of longevity at least he's exceeded Brolin's short-ish career ofc, and he has the argument against Larsson that his prime has been spent in tougher leagues (though a somewhat declined Serie A largely). It is probably easy to make a case for him as best and/or greatest Swedish player (not saying that's my own impression) but at the same time not 100% clear he makes an all-time Swedish XI when considering another old star Gunnar Nordahl for example (whose own highlights from mid 50's might not do justice to him fully I suspect, but older clips are rare and it is clear at least that defensively Serie A and football in general was not so tight even compared to todays game with adjusted rules to encourage fair play and more goals).
As the Berbatov call could be the most surprising (which is maybe why I made the list for longevity/consistency too to show Ibra has more to show on that score for sure - although I had to go back and make sure to be consistent with Baggio/Totti in terms of what I said on another thread lol - i.e that Baggio might have more true world class periods even if less good consistency) here is a video which could help anyone who doesn't follow the PL that closely or didn't in 2006/07:
Probably for me Litmanen would be someone ahead on peak level and influence (in the great 90's Ajax team - he was arguably the most key player I suppose although the team cohesion and team-mates were superior to what Ibra has been involved with apart from his short spell at Barca). But like some of those others, despite showing for example at Liverpool that he could still be a high quality player technically and tactically at quite a late age, behind vs Ibra on consistency/longevity (and basically length of peak effectiveness).
Difficult really to put Ibrahimovic way ahead of Shevchenko. Shevchenko had Champions League success at two different clubs, and he was multiple times a top 5 Ballon d'Or finisher. Ibrahimovic played never at really the best league in the world (except 2009-10) and has very limited Champions League success. Shevchenko finished five times in the top five of Ballon d'Or, Ibrahimovic just once (in 2013). At best Ibra is of Shevchenko his level, not above. But that's my (short) opinion.
However, a good production and year (2016-17) now at this advanced age might influence my perception of him and his professional attitude. For now I think he cannot be regarded a class higher than Sheva...
Ibra's failure at the ucl level looks particularly bad because of his departing team's relative success. Bracelona won the UCL before and after Ibra joining. Inter Milan also won the UCL after Ibra left.
I think Raute called it right. He's a borderline top 100 candidate I think. In this generation if we accept that Messi and Ronaldo are clearly top 20 candidates (likely higher), then Xavi is probably next somewhere around 20-50 in most lists. I think that in the post 2005 era then he's a contender to be the next best player potentially. That must put him somewhere close to the top 100.
It's an interesting case/player. He scores bonus points for his domestic consistency and - I think - his technical skills. He has performed everywhere. Compared to other candidates for the #3 spot of his era he scores weak in international success/performances with his club and country (although the latter can be excused; he has still a fine number of group stage goals). His best KO performance is probably that match with Milan against Arsenal? As others remarked in the Pogba thread: the top of the market are not the clubs Ibra played for. With the exception of Barcelona. http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/fo...ovic-six-reasons-he-flopped-at-Barcelona.html So, compared with other candidates for #3 he has a number of very strong points in his favor (not the least his 'skill') but also a few marks that are below the average of this era.
There are some players like Totti who you can hardly blame for their failure in the CL because of the team he played for. In Ibra's case, that excuse really doesn't fly. He played for a stacked Juventus team (prior to Calciopoli), a stacked Inter team that won the CL right after he left, a more than stacked Barcelona team in 2010, and a stacked PSG team. Yet he's never been particularly great in the CL knockout stages. He's had 10 goals in 40 CL knockout games. With that being said, he is surely one of the very best league football strikers of his generation, if not of all time.
Hes had a terrible CL career for a player known as one of the best of his generation. He is one of the best strikers of this generation (#2 after Suarez) but thats just due to a lack of amazing strikers in this generation.
What do you think about his options to be considered the best Swedish player ever? Ralf Edström Gunnar Gren Zlatan Ibrahimovic Kurt Hamrin Ronnie Hellström Glenn Hysén Ove Kindvall Bo Larsson Henrik Larsson Nils Liedholm Fredrik Ljungberg Roger Magnusson Gunnar Nordahl Sven Rydell Agne Simonsson Lennart Skoglund Glenn Strömberg
I think this is a rather harsh assessment of ibrahimovic's career(and specifically his cl career).I agree that at cl level he has been relatively underwhelming with no notable contributions beyond the qf but even then he is not alone in this ,take van nistelrooy who had one of the highest goal ratio's in cl/European cup history but in the ko stages he was not so great(56 in the cl but less than 10 in the ko stages not even 20% of his overall tally,even Henry did not contribute greatly in the ko stages I remember reading a source that says he had around 13-15 ko stage goals out of a total 50 scored which is obviously great compared to ibrahimovic but still way below the bar set by CR7 and LM10 who have scored close to 50% of their cl goals in the KO stages) Another thing that I would like to mention is what convinced you Suarez was the best striker of his generation? Going by longevity zlatan easily wins he has been contention as one of the very best strikers in the world since he was in inter(2009- ).perhaps you could argue that Suarez has experienced a higher peak but even then you have not taken into consideration peak Falcao(2012).he finished 4th in the ballon dor in the most competitive ballon dor year of ALL time(peak Messi,Ronaldo and iniesta). Let's not forget how Falcao destroyed the uefa cup in 11/12 scoring an all time record 15 goals and then wiped the floor with the champions league winners Chelsea in the uefa super cup . at his peak Falcao was as elite as they come it is a pity he could not spearhead the attack of this current atletico side. now don't get me wrong it is not like I'm saying it's completely outrageous to say suarez is the best striker of his era all I am saying is it isn't so clear cut. He has competition from strikers who may not be as good as him on his best day but were either close but for a longer period of time.
CR7 and LM10 should not be compared to any other forward in the 21st century. They are a tier above. In the tier below, the question is, has Ibra done as well as the likes of Henry, Sheva, RvN, Suarez, Lewandowski, Ronaldo, Eto and Raul, in the UCL? I think Henry did very well given the context. Unlike Ibra, his team wasn't a European elite before he arrived, and haven't done any better when he left. Their best UCL campaign was with him. Wenger's teams have never come close to challenging for the UCL, except in 2006, when Henry had to go superman mode a few times. Henry moved to a better European team, and won it without playing as well. Rating Henry lower for not performing better in the UCL would be the equivalent of rating Gerrard lower for never winning the league. It ignores the context. It's not just about the goal. Eto probably scored at about the same rate as Ibra in Europe, but he was far more proven. Won the UCL with three different frontlines.
Can you enlighten us by telling us which forwards/players are better than CR7 in the 21st century(besides lio)?
I agree if we are comparing ibrahimovic's cl impact to other top tier strikers from this century then he does not come out favourably especially when compared to a st like eto'o I was only making the point that he is not the only one who has "underachieved" in the ko stages,Thierry Henry for one is another example however his 05/06 cl campaign (especially vs real madrid) is better then any of ibrahimovic's and of the top of my head I cannot think of ibrahimovic putting on a similar display to Henry vs inter Milan in 2004 when he completely owned Zanetti
A lot will depend on how he gets on at United re his status, one big factor is he has won Serie A with all the big three in Italy (Juve, Milan, Inter), I am not aware anyone else has done that, he has also won La Liga and was very dominaint in France, 3 PoY and t.s awards in 4 seasons, winning league every year, however I am aware of strength and domination of league. If he was to win the PL with United or have 1 or 2 very good season he would be jump a fair bit, however I completely agree that CL works agaisnt him a lot. He also has been pretty decent at international level in not the strongest of Sweden sides, his ear are a far away form the 48 side, 58 side, 94 side say..
Yeah "underachieved." The quotation mark is right. I fear that years from now, players like Gerrard will be rated very low for never having won the league, as people forget the context he was operating in.